BMW fire risk, If this was Tesla ...

What do you think would happen ?

I'll give you a hint, this is the first I've heard of this !

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6761995/BMW-death-traps-250-000-cars-Britain-risk-bursting-flames.html

D3V!L

Are you sure its not because they just used the indicators ?

liamog

Mod Note: This has potential to get explosive, keep it civil and trolling will be dealt with swiftly!

Patser

If it is linked to exhaust system, does that mean I can relax in my BEV i3, but the Rex lads need to invest in smoke detectors?

B-D-P--

Bad form on BMW,
But Tesla falls through Musk doing near to all his own PR and the media know they will get a rise out of him.

BMW hire PR staff to do PR work
Musk Hires PR staff to play catch up with his impromptu conferences and anouncements.

He's Brilliant, but also his own worst enemy.
Media's job currently is not in inform, its to sell news. Musk and Tesla sells, so if something was to go wrong with a tesla car, they smell the money in the print.

jhegarty

D3V!L wrote: »

Are you sure its not because they just used the indicators ?

The what ?

Patser

jhegarty wrote: »

The what ?

They are like a single version of the invisibility lights that let you park anywhere. Pretty pointless really

D3V!L

Patser wrote: »

They are like a single version of the invisibility lights that let you park anywhere. Pretty pointless really

They're usually after-market as they don't come as standard. The CANBUS system detects them when activated and causes a short, hence the fire.

You can close the investigation now. :cool:

Old diesel

Deleted User wrote: »

What do you think would happen ?

I'll give you a hint, this is the first I've heard of this !

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6761995/BMW-death-traps-250-000-cars-Britain-risk-bursting-flames.html

There was a thread on the main motors forum about this.

BMW was putting owners into enterprise hire cars for weeks at a time for each owner as they were grounding a lot of cars until parts came in.

Fairly well known issue at this stage.

Although your wider point is still very valid.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

this is the first I've heard of this !

Really? This has been going on for years. Not just in BMWs either. Another in a long line of failed / faulty diesel technology that was required to keep emissions down and to keep diesel manufacturing going.

Good riddance to all of that. The last day a diesel car is sold in this country, I'll open a bottle of champagne. I don't think I'll have to wait all that long either.

Silent Running

Old diesel wrote: »

There was a thread on the main motors forum about this.

BMW was putting owners into enterprise hire cars for weeks at a time for each owner as they were grounding a lot of cars until parts came in.

Fairly well known issue at this stage.

Although your wider point is still very valid.

Yeah... that was the last recall. This is the latest recall, for the same issue. I don't know why BMW are so loved here and elsewhere. They are just selling a badge these days and cutting engineering to the bone... and it's showing.


The latest recall was launched on November 25th and includes all N47 and N57 engines between 2010 and 2017. Well over 5 million cars worldwide.

n97 mini

I've personally seen two BMWs with their engine bays burnt out. One on the M4, can't remember where the other one was.

Old diesel

Silent Running wrote: »

Yeah... that was the last recall. This is the latest recall, for the same issue. I don't know why BMW are so loved here and elsewhere. They are just selling a badge these days and cutting engineering to the bone... and it's showing.


The latest recall was launched on November 25th and includes all N47 and N57 engines between 2010 and 2017. Well over 5 million cars worldwide.

BMW built a reputation from the E30 and E34 days as a premium car.

My not particularly into cars uncle bought himself an E34 2nd hand back in the day without really giving it much thought or worry.

Youd get away with that on an E34 as they were fairly reliable cars and well built.

Do that with a modern BMW and it would be an expensive mistake.

drunkmonkey

n97 mini wrote: »

I've personally seen two BMWs with their engine bays burnt out. One on the M4, can't remember where the other one was.

When a Tesla goes up it's in a explosion, it's sitting on load of lithium. Different type of fire. I think you'd have more time in the BMW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrJZFT-0FOs

n97 mini

drunkmonkey wrote: »

When a Tesla goes up it's in a explosion, it's sitting on load of lithium. Different type of fire. I think you'd have more time in the BMW.

Probably, but the end result is the same: car is a total write-off.

I'm sure BMW will sort the problem out, but so will Tesla. New plastic electrolytes would solve the problem straight away.

As an aside, my 2004 Civic IMA was recalled *again* to have the Takata airbag replaced. It was already replaced a few years ago, but now the replacement needs to be replaced as apparently the passenger side airbag firing mechanism can explode, killing the occupants.

drunkmonkey

The car is the insurance companys problem, it's getting out of I'd be worried about. Wasn't there a case recently where a guy couldn't get out the door of the Tesla as the electrics wouldn't work so burnt alive in front of the firemen.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/23/man-died-burning-tesla-because-its-futuristic-doors-wouldnt-open-lawsuit-alleges/

I've had a look at a good few crashes and fires not something I'd be overly worried about but fire and fire management needs a proper discussion, I don't know how well Irish firefighters are equipped to deal with EV battery fires. For starters they'd need to know what exactly is in each battery and I think most of the manufacturers keep it a secret, Tesla does anyway.

Lumen

drunkmonkey wrote: »

For starters they'd need to know what exactly is in each battery and I think most of the manufacturers keep it a secret, Tesla does anyway.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showpost.php?p=111800213&postcount=4729

drunkmonkey

Lumen wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showpost.php?p=111800213&postcount=4729

Isn't there a lot more in a battery pack than coolant.

Lumen

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Isn't there a lot more in a battery pack than coolant.

Have you read the guide I linked to? What is missing in your expert firefighting opinion?

jon1981

I'd be dubious about Teslas ability to react to a recall on that scale, in like months and years. From what i read it can be hard enough getting a service or repair slot in a reasonable time frame in some locations.

drunkmonkey

Lumen wrote: »

Have you read the guide I linked to? What is missing in your expert firefighting opinion?

Have you read it, there are no ingredients listed, just may contain, nothing about the make up. Have you read what's required to put it out, I don't believe Irish firefighters are equipped to handle this, maybe a few city brigades if even.
It looks so simple on the guide. It's far from simple.

Padre_Pio

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Have you read it, there are no ingredients listed, just may contain, nothing about the make up. Have you read what's required to put it out, I don't believe Irish firefighters are equipped to handle this, maybe a few city brigades if even.
It looks so simple on the guide. It's far from simple.

From a publicity point of view it's night and day. Cars on fire is a regular enough thing.
When it happens a Tesla though its usually plastered on every media site.

Regarding firefighting, I doubt Irish fire brigades are trained much on EVs. Theres a few 400V cables running around the car that a jaws of life could easy clip and do more harm that good.

deadduck

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The car is the insurance companys problem, it's getting out of I'd be worried about. Wasn't there a case recently where a guy couldn't get out the door of the Tesla as the electrics wouldn't work so burnt alive in front of the firemen.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/23/man-died-burning-tesla-because-its-futuristic-doors-wouldnt-open-lawsuit-alleges/

As a lot of the commentators in that article mention, something doesn’t seem right about that story. Why didn’t any of the responders or onlookers just break the window to get the poor guy out? Tragic case to be sure, but seems like some pertinent info is missing from the article...

BorneTobyWilde

Only BMW could make water flammable, they really are ahead of the game.

Quigs Snr

Silent Running wrote: »

Yeah... that was the last recall. This is the latest recall, for the same issue. I don't know why BMW are so loved here and elsewhere. They are just selling a badge these days and cutting engineering to the bone... and it's showing.


The latest recall was launched on November 25th and includes all N47 and N57 engines between 2010 and 2017. Well over 5 million cars worldwide.

... and also the newer B47 engines from 142 onwards. Mine got the recall a couple of werks ago. Although to be fair they sorted it same day.

conor_mc

Padre_Pio wrote: »

From a publicity point of view it's night and day. Cars on fire is a regular enough thing.
When it happens a Tesla though its usually plastered on every media site.

Regarding firefighting, I doubt Irish fire brigades are trained much on EVs. Theres a few 400V cables running around the car that a jaws of life could easy clip and do more harm that good.

On the note of firefighting, the fully charged guys were talking about green number plates for EV’s on their podcast and Jonny said a firefighter told him he was all for it as a clear way of identifying an EV in a fire/accident, particularly as they become more mainstream in looks.

Padre_Pio

conor_mc wrote: »

On the note of firefighting, the fully charged guys were talking about green number plates for EV’s on their podcast and Jonny said a firefighter told him he was all for it as a clear way of identifying an EV in a fire/accident, particularly as they become more mainstream in looks.

Here's the Tesla manual if anyone is interested

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Model_S_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.pdf

Problem is that most cars are different if imagine. You'd need to have a fair idea what you're doing ahead of time.

listermint

Padre_Pio wrote: »

From a publicity point of view it's night and day. Cars on fire is a regular enough thing.
When it happens a Tesla though its usually plastered on every media site.

Regarding firefighting, I doubt Irish fire brigades are trained much on EVs. Theres a few 400V cables running around the car that a jaws of life could easy clip and do more harm that good.

Jaws are used to cut roofs off or to bend back doors in reverse.

Where on an ev that a fire fighter would be expected to be cutting would they nick any battery cabling.

conor_mc

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Here's the Tesla manual if anyone is interested

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Model_S_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.pdf

Problem is that most cars are different if imagine. You'd need to have a fair idea what you're doing ahead of time.

True, the fireman in question also wanted a battery killswitch(es) in a standardised location across all models, which makes sense from their perspective. He said they’re currently radioing back to base for info on each EV they encounter.

Lumen

conor_mc wrote: »

True, the fireman in question also wanted a battery killswitch(es) in a standardised location across all models

What would the kill switch do, exactly?

drunkmonkey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The car is the insurance companys problem, it's getting out of I'd be worried about. Wasn't there a case recently where a guy couldn't get out the door of the Tesla as the electrics wouldn't work so burnt alive in front of the firemen.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/23/man-died-burning-tesla-because-its-futuristic-doors-wouldnt-open-lawsuit-alleges/

I've had a look at a good few crashes and fires not something I'd be overly worried about but fire and fire management needs a proper discussion, I don't know how well Irish firefighters are equipped to deal with EV battery fires. For starters they'd need to know what exactly is in each battery and I think most of the manufacturers keep it a secret, Tesla does anyway.

In regard to a Nissan Leaf, at least the Gen I 24 Kwh the battery is incapable of igniting, it just doesn't happen unless it's exposed to serious fire.

There's even a youtube video of someone putting a blowtorch to a Leaf battery and it only burns while the flame is applied. Obviously there were sacrifices with the Leaf battery chemistry but absolute safety wasn't one of them.

Do that to a tesla battery , mobile phone,laptop, vaping battery etc and see what happens.

The 30 + 40 Kwh I'm not so sure but I would expect the same level of safety.

Renault, Hyundai, BMW etc , I haven't heard of battery fires.

Tesla uses or at least , used to use the most fire prone battery available due to their higher energy density.

Lumen

Deleted User wrote: »

In regard to a Nissan Leaf, at least the Gen I 24 Kwh the battery is incapable of igniting, it just doesn't happen unless it's exposed to serious fire.

There's even a youtube video of someone putting a blowtorch to a Leaf battery and it only burns while the flame is applied. Obviously there were sacrifices with the Leaf battery chemistry but absolute safety wasn't one of them.

Do that to a tesla battery , mobile phone,laptop, vaping battery etc and see what happens.

The 30 + 40 Kwh I'm not so sure but I would expect the same level of safety.

Renault, Hyundai, BMW etc , I haven't heard of battery fires.

Tesla uses or at least , used to use the most fire prone battery available due to their higher energy density.

Isn't the combustibility issue just down to liquid cooling, which the Leaf doesn't have? Not energy density.

Tesla (and presumably others) use ethylene-glycol coolant, which is combustible. It auto-ignites at 398C, although presumably needs to be exposed to air in order to burn.

edit: flash point of ethylene-glycol is around 127C, dunno what that means in firefighting terms. Petrol flash point is −43C...

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

Isn't the combustibility issue just down to liquid cooling, which the Leaf doesn't have? Not energy density.

Tesla (and presumably others) use ethylene-glycol coolant, which is combustible. It auto-ignites at 398C, although presumably needs to be exposed to air in order to burn.

I don't know about the coolant but Tesla used or used to use some of the most flammable cells available.

In regard to the Leaf, it's chemistry is so safe that there would need to be a very potent fire to ignite the battery, in other words , it would be virtually impossible for a Leaf Gen I 24 Kwh to catch fire by crash, puncturing the cells or even thermal runaway, thermal , even thermal runaway would most likely just make the Leaf battery smoke but not catch fire, a bit like LiFeP04 Chemistry which is safe but not practical for EV use due to it's poor energy density and bulk but it's great for other applications such as portable battery for my Radio Transceivers.

Puncture a Tesla cell or multiple cells and it will most likely cause a chain reaction.

Leaf 30, 40 Kwh Hyundai etc, I'm not familiar with their chemistry.

nogoodnamesleft

Quigs Snr wrote: »

... and also the newer B47 engines from 142 onwards. Mine got the recall a couple of werks ago. Although to be fair they sorted it same day.

Mine was identified around the end of August as BMW discreetly expanded the recall in the UK to cover the B47 engine. Mine had its MOT in June at the main dealer. I wanted to ensure that I had a car and rang BMW customer services who were clueless as I wished to know if parts were available and workshop leadtimes as I would rather have the ERG cooler replaced sooner rather than later.

5 weeks to wait until an appointment with a courtesy car. BMW mechanic was on OT for mine as i dropped it in just before they shut on a Thursday evening. it was completed and ready for collection the following afternoon which was a relief. I did have a look on my copy of ISTA since it was replaced (the BMW diagnostic) and the workshop neglected to clear some for the logged fault codes incurred when various sensors were disconnected which is an annoyance.

Paulzx

Deleted User wrote: »

In regard to a Nissan Leaf, at least the Gen I 24 Kwh the battery is incapable of igniting, it just doesn't happen unless it's exposed to serious fire.

Most EV's have decent protection around the batteries. It will hold back the heat/flames from a car fire for certain amount of time. If the battery doesn't become involved well then it's just a standard car fire.

However, if the battery and its protection are exposed long enough the protection will be breeched and the battery will become involved in the fire. The amount of heat and energy produced when this happens is phenomanal. At the moment the standard advice for EV fires to Fire Servcies is that "copious" amounts of water are required to extingush an EV that is fully involved in a fire.

A standard car fire can generally be easily extingushed with less than 1800 liters of water( which is the amount a standard Irish fire appliance carries). An EV will need multiples of this.

Realistically, the vehicle is completely lost and its a matter of ensuring the fire doesn't spread. There is no problem if the vehicle is out in the open. However, I think it's fairly clear that an EV going on fire in an underground/multistory car park that is full of parked vehicles creates a major problem if the EV batteries get fully alight

Paulzx

Paulzx wrote: »

Most EV's have decent protection around the batteries. It will hold back the heat/flames from a car fire for certain amount of time. If the battery doesn't become involved well then it's just a standard car fire.

However, if the battery and its protection are exposed long enough the protection will be breeched and the battery will become involved in the fire. The amount of heat and energy produced when this happens is phenomanal. At the moment the standard advice for EV fires to Fire Servcies is that "copious" amounts of water are required to extingush an EV that is fully involved in a fire.

A standard car fire can generally be easily extingushed with less than 1800 liters of water( which is the amount a standard Irish fire appliance carries). An EV will need multiples of this.

Realistically, the vehicle is completely lost and its a matter of ensuring the fire doesn't spread. There is no problem if the vehicle is out in the open. However, I think it's fairly clear that an EV going on fire in an underground/multistory car park that is full of parked vehicles creates a major problem if the EV batteries get fully alight

It depends on the battery chemistry, some burn some just simply don't.

With a Tesla the battery can be the only source of the fire in the Gen I Nissan leaf this is impossible because the battery chemistry just can not catch fire by itself, either by thermal runaway or by puncturing the cells.

A Nissan leaf battery needs a massive fire to burn the battery so in the event of a crash a battery fire or any fire in a Leaf is extremely unlikely, this is not so in a Tesla.

As I said I can't comment on the 40 , 64 Kwh Leaf or the Hyundai's i3, I'd need to research them more but I haven't yet hears of the batteries in these cars causing a fire.

KCross

Lumen wrote: »

What would the kill switch do, exactly?

Every EV, AFAIK, has one. Its cuts the power from the battery so that all those orange HV cables under the bonnet are dead. Without pulling the kill switch they could be live.

Think of it like the main fuse in your house.


I believe in a crash EV's also have an auto disconnect of the battery via a small pyrotechnic that breaks the connection.

Paulzx

Deleted User wrote: »

It depends on the battery chemistry, some burn some just simply don't.

With a Tesla the battery can be the only source of the fire in the Gen I Nissan leaf this is impossible because the battery chemistry just can not catch fire by itself, either by thermal runaway or by puncturing the cells.

A Nissan leaf battery needs a massive fire to burn the battery so in the event of a crash a battery fire or any fire in a Leaf is extremely unlikely, this is not so in a Tesla.

As I said I can't comment on the 40 , 64 Kwh Leaf or the Hyundai's i3, I'd need to research them more but I haven't yet hears of the batteries in these cars causing a fire.

I'm not specifically talking about the batteries actually causing the fire. My points are more general with respect to the complications extingushing or restricting fire spread from an EV compared to a standard car fire. The majority of car fires the fire service attend are caused by malicous intent rather than mechanical fault. There is of course also huge energy released from a standard car fire along with the extra hazards of liquid fuels

There are numerous car fires in Dublin every day that are caused by vandalism. The increase in numbers of EV's means that at some stage when these vehicles start to get stolen in greater numbers there will also be an increase in them being torched.

If they are extingushed quickly it avoids the battery cells becoming involved altogether.

Paulzx

listermint wrote: »

Jaws are used to cut roofs off or to bend back doors in reverse.

Where on an ev that a fire fighter would be expected to be cutting would they nick any battery cabling.

Generally its not an issue. The cabling normally runs through the floor. I've never had to cut in through the floor to extricate a casualty. That doesn't mean its never happened though.

The majority of incidents can be managed without any requirement to cut the floor

zilog_jones

Paulzx wrote: »

However, I think it's fairly clear that an EV going on fire in an underground/multistory car park that is full of parked vehicles creates a major problem if the EV batteries get fully alight

As we've seen in Cork, one single ICE car catching fire is enough to cause substantial structural damage in a multi-storey car park. My understanding is that underground car parks require sprinklers, whereas overground (like Douglas Village) don't, but I'm not sure how much difference that would make in the case of a Tesla fire.

pdpmur

zilog_jones wrote: »

As we've seen in Cork, one single ICE car catching fire is enough to cause substantial structural damage in a multi-storey car park. My understanding is that underground car parks require sprinklers, whereas overground (like Douglas Village) don't, but I'm not sure how much difference that would make in the case of a Tesla fire.

Just to correct you on the issue of a single car fire, a single car fire is generlly not significant and rarely causes any significant structural damage. Even three cars concurrently ablaze is unlikely to be very damaging.
The recent fire in Douglas started in one car but spread so quickly that about 40 cars were ablaze at one stage. This is a different beast of a fire altogether.
The issue of rapid spread of car fires is a relatively recent phenomenon and is possibly linked to the materials used in modern car manufacture.
Ironically, it may transpire that a future car fires starting in an ev will be less likely to spread to adjacent ev's, thus making ev fires in multi-storey car parks less likely to cause structural damage than fires involving hydrocarbon-fuelled cars.

Padre_Pio

listermint wrote: »

Jaws are used to cut roofs off or to bend back doors in reverse.

Where on an ev that a fire fighter would be expected to be cutting would they nick any battery cabling.

The cut off loop on the model 3 is under the window trim at the rear door.

sk8board

You guys need to spend more time in the main Motors forum - this bmw EGR issue has been ongoing for years - cars from 131 onwards in the case of some models. I had the filter replaced on mine in April, same-day thankfully, but bmw have been taking at-risk cars from people for weeks/months even as a precaution, and have been pretty upfront in the communications and letters in the post about it.

The daily mail is a tad sensationalist and literally years behind the news. As always.

Silent Running

sk8board wrote: »

You guys need to spend more time in the main Motors forum - this bmw EGR issue has been ongoing for years - cars from 131 onwards in the case of some models. I had the filter replaced on mine in April, same-day thankfully, but bmw have been taking at-risk cars from people for weeks/months even as a precaution, and have been pretty upfront in the communications and letters in the post about it.

The daily mail is a tad sensationalist and literally years behind the news. As always.

So, recalling cars that have been recalled before, for the exact same issue isn't newsworthy?

Nothing to see here, move along. BMW can do no wrong.

jusmeig

Paulzx wrote: »

There are numerous car fires in Dublin every day that are caused by vandalism. The increase in numbers of EV's means that at some stage when these vehicles start to get stolen in greater numbers there will also be an increase in them being torched.

Thankfully I know nothing about torching cars. Do they not light ICE cars by igniting the fuel? If so I'm guessing it would be far harder to burn an EV and ignite the cells?

Once they go tho...ain't no fire like a lithium runaway fire.

Lumen

jusmeig wrote: »

Thankfully I know nothing about torching cars. Do they not light ICE cars by igniting the fuel? If so I'm guessing it would be far harder to burn an EV and ignite the cells?

Break windows, pour in petrol, throw in match.

I'm not sure that would be enough to ignite the batteries. You want to donate your M3 for an experiment? :pac:

jusmeig

Lumen wrote: »

Break windows, pour in petrol, throw in match.

I'm not sure that would be enough to ignite the batteries. You want to donate your M3 for an experiment? :pac:

You mock me...the waiting continues
Not many sensationalist videos of Model3's igniting mind, think I'll be ok.

drunkmonkey

Lumen wrote: »

break windows

Chap in another thread had to do this to get his kid out of the car recently. Electrics went fault no other way in.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=497041&d=1575707603

sk8board

Silent Running wrote: »

So, recalling cars that have been recalled before, for the exact same issue isn't newsworthy?

Nothing to see here, move along. BMW can do no wrong.

The non-bmw driving public may not be aware, but I’ve have mine changed under warranty twice (it’s a 152), along with countless letters and communications from them.
I also have their extended manufactured warranty now.
As a bmw owner, I’m ok with it. They’re certainly not ignoring it, that’s for sure.
If saying ‘nothing to see’ makes you feel better, go for it

I was certainly impressed with the 118i suspension and handling, it was really great for a poor mans BMW, this was a 192 reg. I had it on test when my i3 was in. Once I got used to the 118i I had a ball in it on back roads.

average economy 6.2 L/100 km on a trip have even seen 5.7 L/100 Km driving it more normal.

Even when they took the higher spec car and gave me a basic spec it still made me smile a lot. Terrific fun even if it was FWD and a 1.5 3 cylinder , jaysus !

Interior was very nice, lovely place to sit. A bit cramped, and pedals a bit close together for me. But I'm used to not having to duck so much in the i3 getting in and out but I can see why People go for BMW, might not be so reliable but a lot of fun to drive.

Silent Running

sk8board wrote: »

The non-bmw driving public may not be aware, but I’ve have mine changed under warranty twice (it’s a 152), along with countless letters and communications from them.
I also have their extended manufactured warranty now.
As a bmw owner, I’m ok with it. They’re certainly not ignoring it, that’s for sure.
If saying ‘nothing to see’ makes you feel better, go for it

:D You say that like it's a good thing.

I had a Mk3 Renault Laguna 2.0L diesel for a few years. I never once got a letter from Renault. I never needed to go to a dealership. Nothing went wrong in the few years that I had it. I didn't feel the need to have an extended warranty either. Now, that's the kind of reliability that people should crow about. Not how good the communication was when it went faulty.... again.

I had more trouble with my MB CLK than I've had with any other car. My A4 wasn't bad though. I've never owned a BMW. Never did like them, from a personal perspective.