M11/N11 Upgrades

hometruths

As anyone who drives the n11 in rush hour will be aware the traffic is abysmal, largely caused by a motorway becomes a N road with the Glen of the Downs bottleneck compounding the problem.

Some will be aware that WCC are currently flying kites about suggested solutions to alleviate or indeed solve the problem. Details at https://n11m11.ie/

Basically they identified 4 options:

1) try and improve the existing road as best as possible - seems sensible but there are constraints in the Glen that mean anything approaching motorway standard equivalent to road south of Coynes Cross would be impossible.

2) all singing dancing new motorway from veering off west at Newtownmountkennedy, up hill behind Kilpedder and picking up M11 north of Kilmac

3 and 4) all singing dancing new motorway veering of east at Newtownmountkennedy taking one of two routes through Delgany hinterland (taking out a number of houses) and through Delgany Golf Club.

Obviously 2, 3 and 4 are controversial in the local area as they involve much CPOing etc.

I have heard a lot about local opposition but very little about what the people who actually drive this route daily think.

Are there people on here who commute on it and have looked at the detail? If so what are your thoughts?

It strikes me that problems on the road and thus the solutions affect the people who suffer the traffic a lot more than those who are currently objecting to it but their views are currently very quiet.

flazio

If you can't find a suitable route around the mountains, maybe it's time to consider tunnelling through the mountains.

sideswipe

Fairly extensive thread here-

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057631449/39/#post111910320

General consensus seems to be if we all get the bus it’ll be grand

hometruths

flazio wrote: »

If you can't find a suitable route around the mountains, maybe it's time to consider tunnelling through the mountains.

They have found three routes around/through the mountains - that's not the problem!

sideswipe

flazio wrote: »

If you can't find a suitable route around the mountains, maybe it's time to consider tunnelling through the mountains.

It cost €140million per kilometre for the port tunnel do you really think a motorway standard tunnel could ever be a viable option?

Cheeseplant

Are they not also considering a parallel road upgrade along the side of the N11 from Greystones to Bray? Or a through road from Windgates-ish to exit 9 on N11?

ittakestwo

The solution is not to live in Wicklow and work in Dublin.

hometruths

Cheeseplant wrote: »

Are they not also considering a parallel road upgrade along the side of the N11 from Greystones to Bray? Or a through road from Windgates-ish to exit 9 on N11?

Not exactly parallel, I think you may be thinking of the proposed coloured routes. The red route below is existing N11 and the others are what else is being considered:

recyclops

I still cant see how either of these will be any help considering the issue is the kilmac speed limit and bray south traffic merging all these will do is create a bottle neck similar to the m50/n11 merge southbound.

sumo12

recyclops wrote: »

I still cant see how either of these will be any help considering the issue is the kilmac speed limit and bray south traffic merging all these will do is create a bottle neck similar to the m50/n11 merge southbound.

Correct and right.... The slowdown in the evening is caused by 2 areas - the speed limit through Kilmac and more importantly the slowdown in traffic coming up the hill from Kilcroney as the Brennanstown slip road onto the N11 is badly designed. Rarely do you travel in excess of 60kmh up that hill at ANY time of day.

I very rarely bang the public transport drum but I can't help thinking if there was a proper 2-track railway line south of Bray with fast regular service from Wexford all the way up the N11 corridor it would take huge numbers of people off the roads. I live in Wicklow and I know so many people who WOULD get the train but CAN'T becuase there just isn't one...

Cheeseplant

schmittel wrote: »

Not exactly parallel, I think you may be thinking of the proposed coloured routes. The red route below is existing N11 and the others are what else is being considered:

Sorry I can't see this pic- post the link?
TY

daragh_

Cheeseplant wrote: »

Sorry I can't see this pic- post the link?
TY

https://n11m11.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/265455-ARP-GEN-SWI-DR-CH-001_PC2_Corridor-Options.pdf

listermint

I think the road needs one of the new proposed routes. I also think that bus services have to be brought in conjunction with this. Anyone who thinks it's an either or solution is quite frankly an idiot.

hometruths

listermint wrote: »

I think the road needs one of the new proposed routes. I also think that bus services have to be brought in conjunction with this. Anyone who thinks it's an either or solution is quite frankly an idiot.

Agreed. Separate the traffic. Mainline traffic on new route. Improved bus services and local access on existing road.

sumo12

Buses are as bad as cars. Still get held up in traffic, still stop when there is an accident. Still unfathomably slow getting to their destination . Train line upgrades is the only public transport solution that will be effective in removing cars from the N11.

2011

sumo12 wrote: »

Buses are as bad as cars.

Except that a single bus may replace 100 cars.

Karlsand

With the M50 linking to the 'M11' then back to N roads until Ashford, personally im happy with whatever the quickest option is to get to 3 lanes, its sorely overdue.

It amazes me that they had the tech and will to tunnel through Bray head 165 years ago, but there is no plans to double track the DART line.

listermint

sumo12 wrote: »

Buses are as bad as cars. Still get held up in traffic, still stop when there is an accident. Still unfathomably slow getting to their destination . Train line upgrades is the only public transport solution that will be effective in removing cars from the N11.

Yes all of the above except they take 75 cars off the road without the equiblt expense of trains.

I realise some people have a baseless factless irrational fear of buses and see trains as some form of panacea.

But hey... Life

Macy0161

sumo12 wrote: »

Buses are as bad as cars. Still get held up in traffic, still stop when there is an accident. Still unfathomably slow getting to their destination

Only because we fail to enforce bus lanes properly. It should be done by fixed cameras, and front and rear cameras on buses.

More roads isn't the solution to the N11. Rail maybe, but is too slow. Buses is the only real game in town. 133 and Wexford Bus show that demand is there, despite the lack of bus lanes on the N11.

2011

Karlsand wrote: »

With the M50 linking to the 'M11' then back to N roads until Ashford, personally im happy with whatever the quickest option is to get to 3 lanes, its sorely overdue.

It amazes me that they had the tech and will to tunnel through Bray head 165 years ago, but there is no plans to double track the DART line.

Technology is not the issue.
The real problem is the shear cost and also the environmental impact would be a consideration.

sumo12

listermint wrote: »

Yes all of the above except they take 75 cars off the road without the equiblt expense of trains.

I realise some people have a baseless factless irrational fear of buses and see trains as some form of panacea.

But hey... Life

Where is the evidence for them taking so many cars off the road? And they still get stuck in traffic no? No fear of buses or trains for that matter. I could never travel on public transport anyway because I travel around the country. Fact is - train from Wicklow takes half the time a bus takes to get to city centre and would be even faster if rail line was upgraded.

I'm not saying there is no need for buses, but rail needs to be upgraded too. Both are part of the solutiion along with upgrading N11. Won't be cheap but sure it's fine we pay loads of tax as motorists so the kitty should be full.....

loyatemu

2011 wrote: »

Technology is not the issue.
The real problem is the shear cost and also the environmental impact would be a consideration.

cost of doubling the Bray Head line would be expensive but not prohibitive. Other countries build tunnels all the time and a new one through Bray Head would be a fairly basic tunnel, no stations etc. Environmental impact would be negligible (probably positive if it takes cars off the road). They should be making plans to double the line as far as Wicklow.

Macy0161

loyatemu wrote: »

cost of doubling the Bray Head line would be expensive but not prohibitive. Other countries build tunnels all the time and a new one through Bray Head would be a fairly basic tunnel, no stations etc. Environmental impact would be negligible (probably positive if it takes cars off the road). They should be making plans to double the line as far as Wicklow.

Just to be clear, I do support rail as part of the longer term solution. However, bus is a much shorter time frame, and will also serve a different part of the corridor.

However, while there may be less environmental impact of the tunnel through Bray Head, my understanding is that Greystones to Wicklow would present it's own environmental issues.

hometruths

Karlsand wrote: »

With the M50 linking to the 'M11' then back to N roads until Ashford, personally im happy with whatever the quickest option is to get to 3 lanes, its sorely overdue.

It amazes me that they had the tech and will to tunnel through Bray head 165 years ago, but there is no plans to double track the DART line.

The quickest option will be one of the offline routes. ANything through the Glen will be tied up in legal challenges for ten years trying to get planning permission.

loyatemu

Macy0161 wrote: »

However, while there may be less environmental impact of the tunnel through Bray Head, my understanding is that Greystones to Wicklow would present it's own environmental issues.

Kilcoole - Wicklow was a double line in the past, I don't think it would be a major problem.

punisher5112

Double decks badly needed on no2 to Wexford but train bridge is too low to allow under.

Also a change in thinking every business has to run from Dublin city and move to outer towns etc.

ittakestwo

loyatemu wrote: »

cost of doubling the Bray Head line would be expensive but not prohibitive. Other countries build tunnels all the time and a new one through Bray Head would be a fairly basic tunnel, no stations etc. Environmental impact would be negligible (probably positive if it takes cars off the road). They should be making plans to double the line as far as Wicklow.

Why cant they around the half way point between Bray and Grey stones make the track double so trains can pass each other that are going in opposite direction. Looking at google maps at about the half way point there seems to be the room for this as it comes out of the tunnel at bray head going towards Greystones. Could run more regular service from Greystones.

AAAAAAAAA

punisher5112 wrote: »

Double decks badly needed on no2 to Wexford but train bridge is too low to allow under.

Which train bridge? The one at Gorey is the only one that I can think of, and that has 4.5m of clearance, more than enough

punisher5112

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

Which train bridge? The one at Gorey is the only one that I can think of, and that has 4.5m of clearance, more than enough

No2 leaves people behind, never seen a double deck on it. So if it can clear that bridge then I do wonder why none are on it.

punisher5112

See glen of the downs they're taking the wooden fencing down and were cutting back some trees.

The crews are using the old works site between kilmack and the Glenview but closer to Glenview.

AAAAAAAAA

punisher5112 wrote: »

No2 leaves people behind, never seen a double deck on it. So if it can clear that bridge then I do wonder why none are on it.

Possibilities are range and safety in my eyes. It's a fairly long cycle from Dublin Airport to Wexford and back, I'm not sure how frequently they refuel. Might not be possible with the double deckers to fill out the same schedule. Also, you're not allowed to have standing passengers at motorway speed which means that the extra space on the bus is wasted when it could be given to a more urban route that doesn't use the motorway instead.

punisher5112

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

Possibilities are range and safety in my eyes. It's a fairly long cycle from Dublin Airport to Wexford and back, I'm not sure how frequently they refuel. Might not be possible with the double deckers to fill out the same schedule. Also, you're not allowed to have standing passengers at motorway speed which means that the extra space on the bus is wasted when it could be given to a more urban route that doesn't use the motorway instead.

They have double deck Tri axle coaches though for this, they're on 133.

prunudo

punisher5112 wrote: »

See glen of the downs they're taking the wooden fencing down and were cutting back some trees.

The crews are using the old works site between kilmack and the Glenview but closer to Glenview.

Any idea what they're doing? Presume it's nothing too major, maybe just replacing the rotten fence or installing crash barriers.

Are any of the ones still living in the trees there or have they long gone?

punisher5112

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Are any of the ones still living in the trees there or have they long gone?

1 who has ties to the previous clearys owners I'm led to believe.

Use to have him on the bus going for the dole and getting bits in shops.

BraveDonut

Anyone know what the changes planned for Kilmac are?
https://www.greystonesguide.ie/new-n11-speed-limit-at-kilmac/

60Kmh Junction 7 Bray South to Junction 8 for a year

Skyfloater

BraveDonut wrote: »

Anyone know what the changes planned for Kilmac are?
https://www.greystonesguide.ie/new-n11-speed-limit-at-kilmac/

60Kmh Junction 7 Bray South to Junction 8 for a year

Basically it's the same as what they did on the westward N4 at lucan. Build a segregated lane for traffic to the filling station and Roundwood.
I think it says up to a year for the 60km/h limit, so they are giving themselves some wiggle room.

Creamy Goodness

Looks like theyre prepping at both Delgany slip roads to widen and lengthen which is badly needed.

loyatemu

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

Looks like theyre prepping at both Delgany slip roads to widen and lengthen which is badly needed.

I believe they're just installing deer-proof fencing.

Creamy Goodness

loyatemu wrote: »

I believe they're just installing deer-proof fencing.

Ah that’s a pity.

BraveDonut

What will the new speed limit be through Kilmac when this is finished?

punisher5112

loyatemu wrote: »

I believe they're just installing deer-proof fencing.

Yes seen that today, much higher.

Seen a few deer completely destroyed along the glen.... Lucky one morning to miss it's body and bits everywhere, truck had to have hit it.

FirstIn

What’s the point? The deer / other animals will still need to cross. They can’t have high fences for the entire length. Surely the deer will go to the area that’s aren’t fenced. Or are we reducing their habitat? Which I feel isn’t right.

Yes some are hit. Yes some cars damaged. But we’ve to live side by side. Will the area be large enough / sustainable land for them on the east side?

loyatemu

FirstIn wrote: »

Yes some are hit. Yes some cars damaged. But we’ve to live side by side. Will the area be large enough / sustainable land for them on the east side?

maybe they'll be culled from the eastern side - I don't remember ever seeing deer east of the N11 when I was younger. I assume they're more likely to try to cross the road in wooded areas.

punisher5112

loyatemu wrote: »

maybe they'll be culled from the eastern side - I don't remember ever seeing deer east of the N11 when I was younger. I assume they're more likely to try to cross the road in wooded areas.

Last week seen loads at coynes cross in hard shoulder and in the grass.

The Real B-man

FirstIn wrote: »

What’s the point? The deer / other animals will still need to cross. They can’t have high fences for the entire length. Surely the deer will go to the area that’s aren’t fenced. Or are we reducing their habitat? Which I feel isn’t right.

Yes some are hit. Yes some cars damaged. But we’ve to live side by side. Will the area be large enough / sustainable land for them on the east side?

It's there to protect motorists and the deer nobody want's to hit one, at 100kph its certain death for the deer and high possibilty of the occupents of the car as the deer tend to come through the windscreen.

.243

That’s not deer fencing,they’re just replacing the old fence line

prunudo

Considering its 16 years since the upgrade was completed I'd say it the existing posts were in a bad way.

punisher5112

prunudo wrote: »

Considering its 16 years since the upgrade was completed I'd say it the existing posts were in a bad way.

One thing though they were better looking then replacement and from what o can see some posts were re used

prunudo

punisher5112 wrote: »

One thing though they were better looking then replacement and from what o can see some posts were re used

Maybe reusing the more recent ones which were replaced from various the crashes.

punisher5112

prunudo wrote: »

Maybe reusing the more recent ones which were replaced from various the crashes.

Maybe...

A hedge would be cheaper, they cut everything back anyway.