Do people underestimate the need for roads.

prunudo

I wasn't sure whether to stick this on the n11 thread but in reality it crosses all roads into big towns cities so said I'd start a fresh thread to open up the debate and not derail the others.
I've been thinking a lot (never good) about the problems facing commuters, ever increasing traffic, longer times and distances. As has been proven if you add extra lanes it seems to just attract more traffic and while public transport can help I'm starting to wonder are we missing a glaring problem in this a solution.

I'll use Dublin as an example but I'm sure its the same around the country. Housing has got to the stage where majority of families need two incomes to cover the mortgage, in most cases both parents having to work long hours to cover bills. Throw creche/childcare into the mix and quite possibly you have one dropping the kids in the mornings, the other collects and so now you have 2 cars going back into a city. For every new housing development built in the commuter belt this is probably not far off reality.

While on paper you can say add bus lanes, car pooling etc, the problem is a lot deeper and in reality because of the society we now live in, peoples dependency on private car use isn't going to change anytime soon. Buses will work for some and they do need improvement in frequency but to think that they'll work for a vast majority of people is ill judged.
As I said on the other thread, it feels like model is broken and until the councils and planning authorities take note we're going to keep needing roads for both personal and goods transport.

donvito99

prunudo wrote: »

peoples dependency on private car use isn't going to change anytime soon.

If you build high quality public transport like as seen in lots of other countries and if you zoned houses next to that public transport instead of along new motorways next to shopping outlets with enormous car parks, you would find that private car use would change dramatically and approach the levels seen in lots of other countries.

Pete_Cavan

prunudo wrote: »

While on paper you can say add bus lanes, car pooling etc, the problem is a lot deeper and in reality because of the society we now live in, peoples dependency on private car use isn't going to change anytime soon.

In many cases, societal changes happen faster than the time it takes to design, obtain planning, get funding signed off and build a large road. Building a new motorway through green fields in populated areas takes the best part of a decade with all the consultations, designing in mitigations, environmental considerations, appeals, cabinet sign off at every step. Look how society has changed in the last 10 years and change will continue to happen faster with developing technologies.

The need for roads is pretty much universally recognised. It's the need for an ever increasing number of traffic lanes for heavy traffic for a few hours a day that is rightly questioned, particularly given the cost of it and the opportunity costs. If relieving traffic congestion long term is the goal, more road space for cars has been proven to not be the solution.

I live in Navan. There is no train line in Navan. The bus Éireann service to Dublin is terrible. Buses are often delayed and full already when they arrive. Then the bus goes through Blanch, Finglas, Glasnevin, Phibsboro and takes a long time to reach city centre.

The M3 parkway train station is the opposite side of the toll making it expensive to use. And it’s far away from Navan anyways.

So everybody living in Navan with a car will be using the car.

An underground system should have been worked on years and years ago. Adding more buses and trams is just clogging the roads even more.

Companies setting up outside city centre would help a lot too.

highdef

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I live in Navan. There is no train line in Navan.

The funny thing is that there is a train line in Navan and it is in active use. In fact, the train station location is less than 5 minutes walk from the centre of town. However, only freight trains serve this line so of no benefit to commuters. It's also not a very direct line to Dublin and the line it joins to work at Drogheda is already very busy.

Stan27

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I live in Navan. There is no train line in Navan. The bus Éireann service to Dublin is terrible. Buses are often delayed and full already when they arrive. Then the bus goes through Blanch, Finglas, Glasnevin, Phibsboro and takes a long time to reach city centre.

The M3 parkway train station is the opposite side of the toll making it expensive to use. And it’s far away from Navan anyways.

So everybody living in Navan with a car will be using the car.

An underground system should have been worked on years and years ago. Adding more buses and trams is just clogging the roads even more.

Companies setting up outside city centre would help a lot too.

Re your last part.
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058024318/3/#post111670926

A point I was trying to make is of a company set up outside Dublin, with so many people commuting, they should be able to get a good workforce as people who commute far would love the chance to commute less.

The cycling and public transport things are just fancy hip buzzwords and come from nobody living in actual reality. Of course we need roads and will for a long time to come.

Seth Brundle

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

The cycling and public transport things are just fancy hip buzzwords and come from nobody living in actual reality. Of course we need roads and will for a long time to come.

Because commuting into the cities by car has shown itself to be so successful :rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Because commuting into the cities by car has shown itself to be so successful :rolleyes:

Because the only people on the roads are commuters.

:rolleyes: indeed

donvito99

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Because the only people on the roads are commuters.

:rolleyes: indeed

Yes, because you cannot own a car and cycle to work. It's banned.

donvito99

donvito99 wrote: »

Yes, because you cannot own a car and cycle to work. It's banned.

This is about needing roads whether you personally own a car or not.

donvito99

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

This is about needing roads whether you personally own a car or not.

But there are roads??? There's loads of them, billions spent on them in fact. Where the roads are mad with traffic, it's not the roads fault/

Seth Brundle

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Because the only people on the roads are commuters.

:rolleyes: indeed

The roads with big problems tend to be the over-subscribed commuter routes (what are the problems with the other roads?)
Indeed!

prunudo

I see the point of my post has been totally missed. We've created or been sold a society where both parents need to work, usually long hours and over lapping of collecting children from childcare. This isn't compatible with the public transport system we have now, in 5 years or even planned for in 20 years. The reliance on private car isn't going anywhere.

Seth Brundle

So the system is broken so no point trying to fix it?

prunudo

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So the system is broken so no point trying to fix it?

The system is ****ed. Planning authorities are granting permission for developments further and further away from Dublin and these are being marketed as commuting distance back to Dublin. And when anything ambitious is proposed, whether its a metro, a high rise, a new bus system or an upgrade of a road its held up for years and watered down.
Everything is geared for you having to go back to the big population centres and its not going to change anytime soon.

The other thing is everyday you see people being told that buying electric cars are the way forward and you'll be saving the environment. You can't on one hand market it as 'oh you'll save the world if you switch to electric' and now say 'oh by way, all cars are bad you must jump on a bus'.

hans aus dtschl

prunudo wrote: »

The system is ****ed. Planning authorities are granting permission for developments further and further away from Dublin and these are being marketed as commuting distance back to Dublin. And when anything ambitious is proposed, whether its a metro, a high rise, a new bus system or an upgrade of a road its held up for years and watered down.
Everything is geared for you having to go back to the big population centres and its not going to change anytime soon.

The other thing is everyday you see people being told that buying electric cars are the way forward and you'll be saving the environment. You can't on one hand market it as 'oh you'll save the world if you switch to electric' and now say 'oh by way, all cars are bad you must jump on a bus'.

Lots of truth in this post, but we don't reach the same conclusions. Roads will always be needed, I agree. But I don't think they're the obvious solution to all of the problems we're currently facing. And this isn't just a Dublin issue either - it's country-wide. We are absolutely in the thrall of motor companies, as a society. I suspect that it's because they supply the majority of advertising money to our media.

The electric cars thing is just a sham when our grid isn't green. You won't be saving the environment, you just won't be harming it quite as much, and you'll be part of the same senseless traffic.

As I see it, new developments should have proper proven transport capacity: we can't keep planning sprawl and putting "this development will have 40% private car usage" on the proposals. Councils need to actually measure the amount of car usage to/from the various developments and the developers should be fined if their development doesn't meet the stated sustainable transport goals. The money created should be put directly into the transport budget. In this way, estate developers in Navan could directly fund the transport to and around Navan.

We currently have a situation where developments go ahead based on what are effectively falsified traffic figures.

Example:
There's talk of a new Kildare Village type development in a Cork suburb. It will be developed on what is currently a very heavily trafficked inter-city dual carriageway. The council plans to change the local area plan so that this can go ahead!!!!! We all know what will happen to traffic in the area. Who should be responsible when it happens? I suggest that no new road should be built for this development. I suggest that the developer should be held partly responsible for the traffic, not as a one-off council "contribution" (bribe), but as an ongoing % of their income from the development.

the dark phantom

Buses need to use roads too and our non motorway roads are shockingly slow so its easier and more efficient to have a car

hans aus dtschl

the dark phantom wrote: »

Buses need to use roads too and our non motorway roads are shockingly slow so its easier and more efficient to have a car

Yes and there's even more to that, too. Cars are effectively subsidised as a mode of transport, given the expenditure on infrastructure for them, the deaths that result from them, the emissions, the health drawbacks of inactivity etc etc.

On the other hand we - as a society - tend to balk at the idea of heavily subsidising public transport. We don't like the idea of "the inefficient bus company", for instance.
My car sits idle for somewhere north of 20 hours a day, and when it runs, it contributes emissions, traffic and danger to the environment.

So when you say "more efficient" I know what you're saying, I'm reading it as "far more convenient in its purpose" but it's simultaneously a hideously inefficient mode of transport. And if the true cost of motoring were shouldered by private motorists (and I am one!) and we simultaneously ringfenced a budget for all transport as a percentage of the national budget, and took it out of the election cycle of end-of-term announcements, we could begin to see a modal shift.

Because at the moment it is as you say "more efficient" - despite being totally inefficient! They're the height of "short term" thinking, really. That doesn't mean that roads aren't needed, but it means that what we're currently using roads for (in Cork City and its environs for example) is ridiculous in the extreme. It's mostly single-occupancy journeys under 10km. "More roads" in that context is just a waste of money. In my opinion of course.

whisky_galore

highdef wrote: »

However, only freight trains serve this line so of no benefit to commuters.

Without it, there would be more lorries on the road, yes?

Chris_5339762

From my perspective, I live in Cobh and work on the west side of Cork.

Even with Dunkettle and ever-increasing delays on the South Ring I can get into work in 50 minutes (40 - 45min drive and 10 mins walk from carpark), and home in just under an hour at the worst of traffic.

Public transport wise I actually have two options.

1) Take the Cobh Connect bus service. Drive to Cobh (10 mins), take the bus to Cork (30-40 mins using the same roads as cars) then find myself having to take a 20-30 min 208 bus to work. Total is well over an hour.

2) Drive to Cobh (10 mins) take the train to Cork (25 mins), walk a few hundred meters to where the 208 bus passes and get a 20-30 min bus to work.

3) Cycling simply isn't an option as the Fota Road is a deathtrap with no cycle lanes.

Either option is far longer, more convoluted, and involves waiting times that make it take far longer than just getting in the car.

Any option I have seen in CMATS or future public transport for Cork will do absolutely nothing about the problems with the tunnel and the N40, and apart from a modest increase in Cobh - Cork train times out to 2040 and the vague promise of a Luas linking the train station to where I work, there is absolutely nothing on the cards that will tempt me out of my car.

And thats the problem. You need better public transport. Yes, it'll be expensive, but there are things that can be done and even if they cost a fortune, people will locate near them.

Hows about
- Building that Luas and extending it from Mahon to the Cobh/Monkstown ferry. Or a spur to Little Island?
- Immediately take one lane of the Tivoli dual carriageway and make it a bus lane?
- Take one half of the south link completely away and turn it into either a Luas or a heavy rail line back out to Bandon. Most of the alignment (apart from some small bits) is still there.
- Build the North Ring, widen the Douglas Viaduct

And thats what I can think of right now and hardly any of that is in CMATS and none of it in the next 20 years anyway.

Chris_5339762

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Example:
There's talk of a new Kildare Village type development in a Cork suburb. It will be developed on what is currently a very heavily trafficked inter-city dual carriageway. The council plans to change the local area plan so that this can go ahead!!!!! We all know what will happen to traffic in the area. Who should be responsible when it happens? I suggest that no new road should be built for this development. I suggest that the developer should be held partly responsible for the traffic, not as a one-off council "contribution" (bribe), but as an ongoing % of their income from the development.

That plan is absolutely cracked, and whats more there is a perfectly good rail line a 500m walk from it, but no station nor any plans for one.

whisky_galore

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

From my perspective, I live in Cobh and work on the west side of Cork.

Even with Dunkettle and ever-increasing delays on the South Ring I can get into work in 50 minutes (40 - 45min drive and 10 mins walk from carpark), and home in just under an hour at the worst of traffic.

Public transport wise I actually have two options.

1) Take the Cobh Connect bus service. Drive to Cobh (10 mins), take the bus to Cork (30-40 mins using the same roads as cars) then find myself having to take a 20-30 min 208 bus to work. Total is well over an hour.

2) Drive to Cobh (10 mins) take the train to Cork (25 mins), walk a few hundred meters to where the 208 bus passes and get a 20-30 min bus to work.

3) Cycling simply isn't an option as the Fota Road is a deathtrap with no cycle lanes.

Either option is far longer, more convoluted, and involves waiting times that make it take far longer than just getting in the car.

Any option I have seen in CMATS or future public transport for Cork will do absolutely nothing about the problems with the tunnel and the N40, and apart from a modest increase in Cobh - Cork train times out to 2040 and the vague promise of a Luas linking the train station to where I work, there is absolutely nothing on the cards that will tempt me out of my car.

And thats the problem. You need better public transport. Yes, it'll be expensive, but there are things that can be done and even if they cost a fortune, people will locate near them.

Hows about
- Building that Luas and extending it from Mahon to the Cobh/Monkstown ferry. Or a spur to Little Island?
- Immediately take one lane of the Tivoli dual carriageway and make it a bus lane?
- Take one half of the south link completely away and turn it into either a Luas or a heavy rail line back out to Bandon. Most of the alignment (apart from some small bits) is still there.
- Build the North Ring, widen the Douglas Viaduct

And thats what I can think of right now and hardly any of that is in CMATS and none of it in the next 20 years anyway.

How about river services on the Lee?

If it was any other city there would be water taxis but never here. There's only so many cars you can stuff onto already clogged roads, even with improvements.

Chris_5339762

This was actually supposed to happen, a river service from Aghada to Cobh to Passage to Cork. It died in the recession sadly.

AugustusMinimus

Public transport is great. However, it generally only works where there is high density development.

We’re continuing with low density sprawl. This allied with zero investment in roads to service low density development is causing an absolute cluster****.

Do one or the other but don’t do things that directly contradict each other.

donvito99

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

This allied with zero investment in roads to service low density development is causing an absolute cluster****.

The total transformation of the road network in this country facilitated this sprawl in the first place.

AugustusMinimus

donvito99 wrote: »

The total transformation of the road network in this country facilitated this sprawl in the first place.

No. Poor planning and awful development policies facilitated it. Most of Europe has better road networks than we have without resulting in urban sprawl.

hans aus dtschl

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

- Immediately take one lane of the Tivoli dual carriageway and make it a bus lane?
- Take one half of the south link completely away and turn it into either a Luas or a heavy rail line back out to Bandon. Most of the alignment (apart from some small bits) is still there.
- Build the North Ring, widen the Douglas Viaduct

Agreed. Instead we're narrowing the footpaths in an effort to get more car lanes in and STILL designing new road infrastructure that we know doesn't work for bus, pedestrian or cycle. That's in Cork anyway. It's all just car car car.

I commute by car too, so I'm in no way perfect and I certainly contribute to the problems, but the "cars first and cars only" attitude in the council is beyond infuriating. They cannot seem to comprehend prioritising any other mode. Sustainable transport is considered "for poor people" or "for students and elderly". Serious people use the car, obviously.


Anyway, back on the point of the thread, I don't underestimate the need for roads anyway. I do think that the current ratio of roads spending in comparison with all other transport spending needs to be re-balanced. Not necessarily by cutting road spending though. But it is very frustrating to see over a billion pledged to roads and simultaneously "not enough money for plastic wands to protect cycle lanes".

SeanW

donvito99 wrote: »

The total transformation of the road network in this country facilitated this sprawl in the first place.

No, it didn't. Building roads while neglecting public transport and "planning" based on brown envelopes is what caused the car dependent sprawl. Most all of the major destinations built in Ireland over the past 75 years or so (Dublin, Cork and Shannon Airports, Mahon Point Shopping Centre in Cork, Liffey Valley, Blanchardstown in Dublin, all share one thing in common - none were built anywhere near the railway network. Each of these and probably more were missed opportunities to plan things properly and make the railways more useful to the people. There were other failures too, like neglecting to invest in public transport at the same time as building roads, allowing one off houses to be built on national roads, building "inner relief roads" (a.k.a. stroads) instead of proper bypasses, the list goes on.

But much of the road investment that has occurred has been in the area of long distance national routes, and legitimate bypasses. Take a look at the M8 Cork-Dublin (well OK Co. Laois to be specific) as an example. How many people built one-off houses in Aghaboe, Co. Laois so that they could commute via the full M8 to Cork? Very few? Then the construction of roads must have had another raison d'être than facilitating commuters!

There is no question that roads are warranted for reasons not just commuting. Freight vehicles, long distance leisure travel and other reasons. Especially given how badly planned our destinations are as I alluded to above, it's clear that the failure was not in building the roads, but in not doing anything else properly.

My current thinking about the need for roads is based on the Strong Towns approach in the USA. They advocate more strict segregation of purpose between roads (which should be about getting people from place to place quickly, efficiently and safely) versus streets (which are about capturing value in complex spaces). So for my part, I would prefer less nonsense like routing through traffic through towns and cities (Kilmacanoge, Co. Wicklow, this shambles of an inner relief road in Carrick on Shannon, Galway and so on). In short, more well functioning streets and more motorways. But of course, that's just roads and streets. In addition dealing with the above by means of segregating long haul and local travel, I believe that the minimum transport investment now required to make Ireland functional again would include, but not be limited to:

• New planning rules requiring new major destinations to be sited near major public transport stations/lines.
• Dublin Metro, at least from Swords to Bray, ASAP. Feasibility study into an orbital metro.
• Scrap the joke of a "National Children's Hospital" and build a proper facility where the Dublin Metro and the M50 intersect. Station for the hospital on the Metro, link road to the nearest M50 junction.
• DART Underground to be added to the pathetic DART expansion plan and all of it to be done ASAP. Feasibility studies into expanding the lines from Connolly station to 3 and 4 tracks where possible, to allow long distance trains to overtake DARTs going to Maynooth, Drogheda, Hazelhatch etc.
• New railway tunnel from Greystones to Bray. Twin track electrified, well in from the sea.
• CMATS in Cork, in full. Electrify Cork's commuter system with branded electric trains, e.g. the CART? Run electrification and EMU trains from Mallow through Cork to Cobh and Midleton. Determine the most suitable route for a Cork Luas and build the first line. Build all the roads called for in the plan.
• Fully encircle as many towns as possible with high speed ring roads, then lower speed limits inside the rings and re-prioritise road space to non-motorists.
• Properly funded municipal school systems that can guarantee a place to a child in the area. This in turn guarantees that a school bus system can be planned in the area around those schools.

If all of that is done, we might find ourselves in a situation where not every train line in Dublin is a slow, crush loaded mess, the M50, N40 etc. isn't a car park, and commutes and other types of travel are reasonably fast, safe and efficient. But I'm not holding my breath, alas.

AugustusMinimus

SeanW wrote: »

No, it didn't. Building roads while neglecting public transport and "planning" based on brown envelopes is what caused the car dependent sprawl. Most all of the major destinations built in Ireland over the past 75 years or so (Dublin, Cork and Shannon Airports, Mahon Point Shopping Centre in Cork, Liffey Valley, Blanchardstown in Dublin, all share one thing in common - none were built anywhere near the railway network. Each of these and probably more were missed opportunities to plan things properly and make the railways more useful to the people. There were other failures too, like neglecting to invest in public transport at the same time as building roads, allowing one off houses to be built on national roads, building "inner relief roads" (a.k.a. stroads) instead of proper bypasses, the list goes on.

But much of the road investment that has occurred has been in the area of long distance national routes, and legitimate bypasses. Take a look at the M8 Cork-Dublin (well OK Co. Laois to be specific) as an example. How many people built one-off houses in Aghaboe, Co. Laois so that they could commute via the full M8 to Cork? Very few? Then the construction of roads must have had another raison d'être than facilitating commuters!

There is no question that roads are warranted for reasons not just commuting. Freight vehicles, long distance leisure travel and other reasons. Especially given how badly planned our destinations are as I alluded to above, it's clear that the failure was not in building the roads, but in not doing anything else properly.

My current thinking about the need for roads is based on the Strong Towns approach in the USA. They advocate more strict segregation of purpose between roads (which should be about getting people from place to place quickly, efficiently and safely) versus streets (which are about capturing value in complex spaces). So for my part, I would prefer less nonsense like routing through traffic through towns and cities (Kilmacanoge, Co. Wicklow, this shambles of an inner relief road in Carrick on Shannon, Galway and so on). In short, more well functioning streets and more motorways. But of course, that's just roads and streets. In addition dealing with the above by means of segregating long haul and local travel, I believe that the minimum transport investment now required to make Ireland functional again would include, but not be limited to:

• New planning rules requiring new major destinations to be sited near major public transport stations/lines.
• Dublin Metro, at least from Swords to Bray, ASAP. Feasibility study into an orbital metro.
• Scrap the joke of a "National Children's Hospital" and build a proper facility where the Dublin Metro and the M50 intersect. Station for the hospital on the Metro, link road to the nearest M50 junction.
• DART Underground to be added to the pathetic DART expansion plan and all of it to be done ASAP. Feasibility studies into expanding the lines from Connolly station to 3 and 4 tracks where possible, to allow long distance trains to overtake DARTs going to Maynooth, Drogheda, Hazelhatch etc.
• New railway tunnel from Greystones to Bray. Twin track electrified, well in from the sea.
• CMATS in Cork, in full. Electrify Cork's commuter system with branded electric trains, e.g. the CART? Run electrification and EMU trains from Mallow through Cork to Cobh and Midleton. Determine the most suitable route for a Cork Luas and build the first line. Build all the roads called for in the plan.
• Fully encircle as many towns as possible with high speed ring roads, then lower speed limits inside the rings and re-prioritise road space to non-motorists.
• Properly funded municipal school systems that can guarantee a place to a child in the area. This in turn guarantees that a school bus system can be planned in the area around those schools.

If all of that is done, we might find ourselves in a situation where not every train line in Dublin is a slow, crush loaded mess, the M50, N40 etc. isn't a car park, and commutes and other types of travel are reasonably fast, safe and efficient. But I'm not holding my breath, alas.

The original location for Cork Airport was near Carrigtwohill beside the rail line. Presume brown envelopes pushed it where it is today. It’s in a terrible location, prone to fog.

Chris_5339762

Oh yes, as well as all these infrastructure bits, lengthen Corks main runway slightly, lengthen the crosswind runway for use with jets and install whatever CAT I/II or III upgrades are necessary to allow landing in fog.