Parents found guilty of mutilating one year daughters genitals

Wibbs

Calhoun wrote: »

How would you go about policing it more if that was to be done? Seems there are ways in which parents can get around it if they want to.

Stiff sentences for the practitioners of backstreet cultural mutilations, stiff sentences for the parents, including deportation for both. Exile for going beyond the Pale has a long legal history in most cultures around the world. I'd bring it back.

ceadaoin.

vicwatson wrote: »

Can we do the same for male genital mutilation I wonder?

Sure we could, if people decided to do something about it, raise awareness, start campaigns etc. Much like how it was done for FGM. Given that they are very different than would probably be the best thing to do, rather than trying to compare the two practices and downplay the suffering of girls who are subjected to this practice.

Male circumcision is sometimes medically necessary after all so would still need to be performed on occasion. I dont think it should be socially acceptable to do it for any other reason but without a concerted effort nothing is going to change.

4068ac1elhodqr

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Glad to see this judgment today in our courts.

Agree, but strange it took this long for (the very 1st case of it's kind). Likely loads of cases every year since it's been deemed a crime since way back in 2012.

Likely there are dozens or even hundreds of girls presenting themselves to hospitals seeking remedy to the damage, often years later, with very little in the way of follow up or historical investigations.

Wibbs

Mezzotint wrote: »

It's about human rights and the state's obligations to protect someone from harm, including from their own parents if needs be.

I'd agree M, but what we call "human rights" is very much a Eurocentric idea and other cultures differ and sometimes differ quite widely. For a start, many of every religion you care to think of anywhere in the world, will have adherents that place their god and faith above any state, or as they may see it human invented "human rights".

Calhoun

Wibbs wrote: »

Da fuk C? Everything that poster said is factually correct about the continent of Africa. Put it this way if I was on Boards.co.ke and I had Kenyans conflating the social and cultural issues of Travellers with me as an Irishman, I'd be pretty "protective" too and Ireland could fit in some African country's national parks.

My main issue is that this poster joined the site to protect African and is having a go on a fairly serious topic. if we want to have a conversation about grouping it up when its a huge landmass lets do that but as much as people are calling out the conversation on male circumcision.

Both equally important topics but have places elsewhere.

Spanish Eyes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Does it affect the male enjoyment of sex, NO.

If your clitoris was fulled exposed and rubbing of your panties every day of your life, would it be as sensitive? Would it affect your enjoyment of sex?

Because I know I couldn't even touch my glans when I was young whereas a circumcised teenager wouldn't feel anything. Now if I were circumcised, it would be very uncomfortable for some days or weeks waiting for it to desensitise.

So of course it affects the enjoyment of sex. Just nowhere near as much as FGM which removes it entirely. And some men do have trouble orgasming.. If it's because of circumcision reducing sensitivity, then it's in the same league.

Calhoun

Wibbs wrote: »

Stiff sentences for the practitioners of backstreet cultural mutilations, stiff sentences for the parents, including deportation for both. Exile for going beyond the Pale has a long legal history in most cultures around the world. I'd bring it back.

Agreed the question is will we have the political will to do stuff like this.

Mezzotint

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd agree M, but what we call "human rights" is very much a Eurocentric idea and other cultures differ and sometimes differ quite widely. For a start, many of every religion you care to think of anywhere in the world, will have adherents that place their god and faith above any state, or as they may see it human invented "human rights".

That's why secularism is so important and why religion and the state need to be kept separate. Regardless of the legacy of the catholic church and the anglican church here over the centuries, it's basically a post-enlightenment and post-religious society. It may be Eurocentric, but we're sitting in Europe, and there are similar values held in quite a lot of contemporary societies around the world, and they're not all European in origin or influences.

The whole modern era, and I would include all of its advancing science and technology, has been defined by that ability to move towards reasoned, logical argument and not just rely on dogma.

Wibbs

Calhoun wrote: »

My main issue is that this poster joined the site to protect African and is having a go on a fairly serious topic. if we want to have a conversation about grouping it up when its a huge landmass lets do that but as much as people are calling out the conversation on male circumcision.

Both equally important topics but have places elsewhere.

I'd usually agree, but saying it's an "African practice" is akin to saying sulky racing on the public roads and slash hook feud fights are a "European practice". And as I said if I was perusing an African country's forum* and the locals were calling out such things as intrinsically Irish, never mind European, I'd be bloody well having a go too. And to be fair C likely much less politely.




*I so want to find a San forum, just to see how those feckers type that clicking language thing they do. If a San chap or chapess logs in here I may just crap myself.

Mulberrytree

I've been reading this site a long time.

Yes, plenty in the news about immigrants, asylum seekers etc, well, some of the subliminal messaging around this is not great (particularly where majority faces in asylum media pieces are black, thereby suggesting black people are here via this route - untrue for me! And many others I know) but these are minor annoyances really.

But for something like this which involves an infant and such a horrible thing, maybe it's better that voices from the continent are also heard. It's far too big an issue that people shouldn't know that it's a limited practice that many many African women themselves campaign against.

Especially when it comes to things like this fgm case, which really made me angry because that child has been unfairly condemned to a life of complications, depending on the severity of the excisions. So yes, posted on this to make a record that this serious crime should not be associated with Africans as a whole.

The kind of people who would do this to an infant should not be having any children in their care. They probably love their kids, but are blinded by stupidity, ignorance and whatever cultural pressure is in their heads. The mother for one, would know exactly what the implications for her child were, especially as she has three children (with all the post natal issues that fgm sufferers go through with successive births) and more than likely went under this herself. . They would be imprisoned in my own home country where it's a crime and I'm glad they'll be jailed here.

Mezzotint

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd usually agree, but saying it's an "African practice" is akin to saying sulky racing on the public roads and slash hook feud fights are a "European practice". And as I said if I was perusing an African country's forum* and the locals were calling out such things as intrinsically Irish, never mind European, I'd be bloody well having a go too. And to be fair C likely much less politely.

Agreed. I think we've a rather shocking tendency to just lump Africa into one homogenous entity. It's huge content with 1.2 billion+ people and a huge array of countries, cultures, languages, religions, ethnic identities and so on.

The communities and cultures that FGM does seem to exist in, however, need to come out very strongly against it. China managed to make foot binding basically be seen for what it is - a bizarre practice and it became a taboo and disappeared entirely within a couple of generations. While China is an authoritarian regime, what actually seems to have abolished the practice was that it became socially unacceptable. That's precisely what needs to happen to FGM and that's why rulings like this are hugely important both in Ireland and beyond.

1641

Mezzotint wrote: »

That's why secularism is so important and why religion and the state need to be kept separate........

The whole modern era, and I would include all of its advancing science and technology, has been defined by that ability to move towards reasoned, logical argument and not just rely on dogma.

Er - and would you see Soviet and Chinese communism and German fascism as part on this "move towards reasoned, logical argument and not just rely on dogma" thing?

Wibbs

Mezzotint wrote: »

That's why secularism is so important and why religion and the state need to be kept separate. Regardless of the legacy of the catholic church and the anglican church here over the centuries, it's basically a post-enlightenment and post-religious society. It may be Eurocentric, but we're sitting in Europe, and there are similar values held in quite a lot of contemporary societies around the world, and they're not all European in origin or influences.

The vast majority are. The UN's code of human rights is almost entirely based on the Eurocentric ideal and philosophy, going all the way back to Cicero and before. And for one simple reason; Europe post reformation and enlightenment, was the first place on the planet on anything like a large scale to argue for and have a goal of a secular society and a moral and cultural distinction between church and state. For but one example, and its not the only one; in a "pure" Islamic state there is no distinction between the two and the suggestion is almost alien.

Mezzotint

1641 wrote: »

Er - and would you see Soviet and Chinese communism and German fascism as part on this "move towards reasoned, logical argument and not just rely on dogma" thing?

They did in some ways, but they never developed notions of individual rights and democracy. In many ways you could argue that China is basically a modern incarnation of a royal court, just with a modern communist replacement for the 'good king'.

However, there's an element of whataboutary in that argument. It's not a choice between the USSR or Communist China vs a theocratic state. That's something you see endlessly in the US in political debate i.e. you can have absolute capitalism or soviet communism, and let's pretend that free market, democratic countries with elements of socialism (including the US itself btw) exist at all.

A lot of countries around the world arrived at a point of being secular democracies with broad concepts of human rights.

Spanish Eyes

I may be banned for this, but so be it.

I doubt this country ever had to deal with FGM before the mass immigration of Africans or others who hold this trauma as part of their culture for females only.

Anyway, that's me banned now.

markodaly

mcmoustache wrote: »

We need to send a strong message here with a proper sentence for both parents. Mutilating kids is repugnant and needs to be dealt with harshly.

It is one of the worst forms of child abuse there is. There should be manditory sentances for this. A decade at least behind bars.

Mezzotint

Mezzotint wrote: »

The whole modern era, and I would include all of its advancing science and technology, has been defined by that ability to move towards reasoned, logical argument and not just rely on dogma.

This is a complicated situation, though. How can we expect people to advocate for cultural change to protect women, if they're the same people who will call themselves racist for bringing it up.

It's happening already in this thread with Africa being an offensively broad term. Then when it gets narrowed down to countries, it will be skin colour or something, then maybe it will become offensive to certain tribes, then religion, etc.

A law like FGM is one thing. Calling out a culture living in your country is quite another. A judge said it wasn't white culture's place to judge a death that happened in Ireland and let the man go.

Spanish Eyes

What is the equivalent for males.

Spanish Eyes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

What is the equivalent for males.

Removal of the glans, the entire head of the penis. Maybe even the prostate as well.

Spanish Eyes

markodaly wrote: »

It is one of the worst forms of child abuse there is. There should be manditory sentances for this. A decade at least behind bars.

Suspended sentences of either one or two years. Back to your taxpayer funded life. Honestly.

Calhoun

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd usually agree, but saying it's an "African practice" is akin to saying sulky racing on the public roads and slash hook feud fights are a "European practice". And as I said if I was perusing an African country's forum* and the locals were calling out such things as intrinsically Irish, never mind European, I'd be bloody well having a go too. And to be fair C likely much less politely.




*I so want to find a San forum, just to see how those feckers type that clicking language thing they do. If a San chap or chapess logs in here I may just crap myself.

Well people do stereotype the Irish allot we get grouped up, similar with other areas of the world like being male or even female. People often are take the lazy way out and group things up.

I know its not right as I normally really dislike it myself.

However, in this case I think its a lesser evil in the context of the topic at hand. It would actually be really great to see a post talking about Africa and the different countries and culture and educating us but as the poster came back pointed my response was to respond in kind.

My original point was more from the Irish memory of current affairs we have had a few high profile cases on the topic, not all related to the act itself but even people using it as a reason not to have a deportation order.

Wibbs

1641 wrote: »

Er - and would you see Soviet and Chinese communism and German fascism as part on this "move towards reasoned, logical argument and not just rely on dogma" thing?

True, though "reasoned, logical argument" is regularly confused with dogma. True for every single example you mention. I hate to break it to you, but there were strident communists and nazis that would have made mincemeat of us both in debates among their peers and culture. Most certainly at the time. Never mind that if we had been born into any of your examples, we'd almost certainly have cheerleaded them as they did so. Oh and if we had been brought up in a culture where FGM was the done thing the chances are extremely hight that we'd both be for it. That's another example of why we need to both look to our own cultural biases and to take the same blinders off. One thing I did absorb and take on board from my background Christian culture was when the Jewish lad from Galilee said: Oh you hypocrite. First cast out the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to cast out the splinter from the eye of your brother. That's bloody good advice, no matter the source.

Calhoun

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I may be banned for this, but so be it.

I doubt this country ever had to deal with FGM before the mass immigration of Africans or others who hold this trauma as part of their culture for females only.

Anyway, that's me banned now.

If you break it down into the countries it will be ok.

Mezzotint

Wibbs wrote: »

The vast majority are. The UN's code of human rights is almost entirely based on the Eurocentric ideal and philosophy, going all the way back to Cicero and before. And for one simple reason; Europe post reformation and enlightenment, was the first place on the planet on anything like a large scale to argue for and have a goal of a secular society and a moral and cultural distinction between church and state. For but one example, and its not the only one; in a "pure" Islamic state there is no distinction between the two and the suggestion is almost alien.

Well, they're values that are worth protecting and standing by here. If others want to adopt them and adapt them, that's up to them. However, those ideas spread in Europe as ideas, I don't think one ethnic identity should hold onto them, as they've been adapted around the world much as they were in Europe. Ideas in humanity spread and adapt generally - it's the same with all sorts of systems, philosophies, religions, music, food, languages etc etc. I wouldn't really bolt the concept of democracy and secularism as something that exclusively belongs in Europe. In fact, much of Europe took a very long time to adopt some of those ideas, particularly on the democracy side of things - we've had bouts of extreme fascism and dictatorship well into recent years on this continent too.

However, to get back to the topic of the thread, it's those values that define this society and I think those are also the values that allow it to function as multicultural and multi-religious. If we allow religious law or traditional custom to trump secular law, we know fine and well what the consequences are in our own recent cultural past, so I think this judgement is extremely important to set down a marker of where the state stands on protecting individual rights and standards of human rights and showing that it includes the rights of children, who are not just someone's chattel and have their own individual rights beyond those of their parents.

Mulberrytree

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is a complicated situation, though. How can we expect people to advocate for cultural change to protect women, if they're the same people who will call themselves racist for bringing it up.

It's happening already in this thread with Africa being an offensively broad term. Then when it gets narrowed down to countries, it will be skin colour or something, then maybe it will become offensive to certain tribes, then religion, etc.

A law like FGM is one thing. Calling out a culture living in your country is quite another. A judge said it wasn't white culture's place to judge a death that happened in Ireland and let the man go.

That judge was wrong. That isn't the way for integration to happen and I actually don't understand sentencing that takes into account country of origin. It shouldn't be a factor.

That said, There are many cultural change advocates from different communities and change only happens from within. It's almost impossible for outsiders to make this happen. I can't link here but there's a very good NGO that runs fgm awareness and support classes and it's almost entirely run by women who have been affected themselves (these fgm support groups). Often the women affected are also of low education or in situations where they are powerless and voiceless. Trust is a big issue for them as many are traumatized especially the ones for whom it happened at an age old enough to remember.

It's not like there aren't advocates from within working hard to end it. I really wish them well. My dealings with this are on the clinical end only but the emotional and psychological trauma for survivors is overwhelming to deal with so I've a lot of respect for the support group

ceadaoin.

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I dont agree with male circumcision either, unless there is a medical reason for it. FGM is nothing like it though, not the reasons it is done for, the procedure or the lifelong medical consequences of it. You can't compare the two.

Regarding the reasons it is currently done, it is to prevent boys enjoying mastrubation. Puritanical reason why it's so common in USA, and in the religuous cults I would imagine it's also the original reason

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Removal of the glans, the entire head of the penis. Maybe even the prostate as well.

No offence but your human anatomy needs a refresher A. Whatever about the removal of the glans, "maybe even the prostate as well"? Eh... no. The Skene's glands are kinda analogous, but they're not nearly in play in FGM.

In the "least" invasive form of FGM, it would be pretty akin to male circumcision; the removal of the clitoral hood and part of the labia. In the more extreme and the more usual, it would be akin to removal of the glans and foreskin and the stitching things up to make it difficult to pee.

Spanish Eyes

Deleted User wrote: »

Removal of the glans, the entire head of the penis. Maybe even the prostate as well.

Circumcision happens every day all over the world, with regard to males but come on.... you are out of your tree there.

The females are mutilated and controlled.

1641

Mezzotint wrote: »

They did in some ways, but they never developed notions of individual rights and democracy. In many ways you could argue that China is basically a modern incarnation of a royal court, just with a modern communist replacement for the 'good king'.

However, there's an element of whataboutary in that argument. It's not a choice between the USSR or Communist China vs a theocratic state. That's something you see endlessly in the US in political debate i.e. you can have absolute capitalism or soviet communism, and let's pretend that free market, democratic countries with elements of socialism (including the US itself btw) exist at all.

A lot of countries around the world arrived at a point of being secular democracies with broad concepts of human rights.

It is nothing about whataboutery. I just think it is naive to thing that as children of the enlightenment we are somehow immune from dogma and blind acceptance of savagery.

Fascism and communism had their roots in the enlightenment just as much as liberal democracy. I would suggest that the enlightenment may have killed god much more than it killed religion. Hence how easily the new religions of communism and fascism took hold - and how vulnerable we remain to some charismatic fanatic. Liberal democracy is more akin to a secular christianity. And it remains vulnerable to other religions that offer greater "certainty" and simple "answers".

Anyway derailing - sorry.

maebee

The father of that baby should be laid on a table and have his bits mutilated.