Fake minutes of meetings

Alrigghtythen

My manager is faking minutes of meetings that never happened. I have just discovered I was apparently attending them(along with a couple of others)

The meetings never happened. What do I do?

skinny90

fake a formal complaint?

Alrigghtythen

skinny90 wrote: »

fake a formal complaint?

To HR?

chooseusername

Claim travel exps
edit;
Oh and overtime

Batgurl

OP can you give us some more context as to why this is an issue for you?

Or alternatively why can’t you just tell your manager you weren’t present?

Alrigghtythen

chooseusername wrote: »

Claim travel exps
edit;
Oh and overtime

Unfortunely the fake meetings are on site during normal working hours.


The thing is it would benefit the team to actually hold the meeting. I can't get my head around taking the time to fake minutes rather than actually hold the meeting.

Johnny Sausage

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

To HR?

To Fake HR

punisher5112

He is probably taking credit for things Yee are doing.

Spoofers seem to move up quite quickly.

Alrigghtythen

punisher5112 wrote: »

He is probably taking credit for things Yee are doing.

Spoofers seem to move up quite quickly.

Does that quite openly. They just stick their name on my documents

STB.

Batgurl wrote: »

OP can you give us some more context as to why this is an issue for you?

Or alternatively why can’t you just tell your manager you weren’t present?

Are you for real.


More context lol.


How did you find out OP ? Why don't you ask for the minutes to be circulated for agreement. That should make for fun times.

BDI

Managers don’t get promotions for how hard they work. It’s how hard they get everyone to work.

If they worked hard somebody else would be credited with motivating them and that person would get promoted.

dreamers75

Most places expect managers to have team daily/weekly/monthly meetings (it makes sense) maybe your manager is faking them to try show higher ups they are happening. Or is afraid to actually have them as your team might slaughter them in an open forum.

Anyway ask for your name to removed if it bothers you.

Ficheall

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

I can't get my head around taking the time to fake minutes rather than actually hold the meeting.

Sounds like a massive time-saver.

punisher5112

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Does that quite openly. They just stick their name on my documents

I'd be contacting union if there is one and also a solicitor for someone using your name and signature.

It is fraudulent what he is at and I'd be getting proof and pushing HR.

Alrigghtythen

dreamers75 wrote: »

Most places expect managers to have team daily/weekly/monthly meetings (it makes sense) maybe your manager is faking them to try show higher ups they are happening. Or is afraid to actually have them as your team might slaughter them in an open forum.

Anyway ask for your name to removed if it bothers you.

It doesn't just bother me, it is directly related to the project I'm working on. I have asked for this meeting to be held several times but was ignored. The minutes show the team agreed to x. But I don't agree with x and want it reviewed by the team and my manager knows it.

punisher5112

Reminds me of a manager nearly sure it was and he was basically forgotten about in the company, he would go into his office the odd time, leave for days or weeks and get paid quite well.

Alrigghtythen

Ficheall wrote: »

Sounds like a massive time-saver.

But a pointless waste of time

punisher5112 wrote: »

I'd be contacting union if there is one and also a solicitor for someone using your name and signature.

It is fraudulent what he is at and I'd be getting proof and pushing HR.

No union, but I've saved a copy of the minutes

punisher5112

He will go places. Seems a trend to promote absolute tools.

redzerdrog

Address this with your boss first and foremost. Could be a genuine mistake

Batgurl

STB. wrote: »

Are you for real.


More context lol.

I am indeed.

I’m one of those crazy people who look for the full story before jumping to conclusions...mad I know!!!

For example, a manager could mark an employee as present at a meeting because she has given that employee special permission to drop his child off at school and so miss the daily standup. Or because the employee (who is normally reliable) has overslept. It’s not healthy to always assume the worst in people.

However, it seems from the OP’s recent post that the manager did it to push their own agenda, which is not acceptable.

OP - if you just want it noted that you don’t agree with the proposal, ask your manager to remove your name. If you want the proposal re-examined, I suggest you organise your own meeting and invite your manager to discuss.

Alrigghtythen

redzerdrog wrote: »

Address this with your boss first and foremost. Could be a genuine mistake

The minutes where constructed as a formal response to an outside body.

redzerdrog

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

The minutes where constructed as a formal response to an outside body.

So address with your line manager and ask for an explanation

Steve

Had this anything to do with a €1.8m printer?

Alrigghtythen

redzerdrog wrote: »

So address with your line manager and ask for an explanation

I will but I know I'll get fobbed off. I think my options are

a) address it with manager but I would rather hr or general manager there too (or someone neutral)

b) call a meeting myself and recap on the previous fake minutes

Steve

You need to go above your managers head tbh. And to do that, you'll need evidence (in the form of a copy of the minutes) and testimony from others that were allegedly in the meeting that never happened.

Could go one of two ways: you get fired and enter into an unfair dismissal scenario, or you get a massive promotion for outing the scammer.

Again, know your enemy before doing anything, if they are the son / daughter / ride of the owner then it's pointless.

redzerdrog

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

I will but I know I'll get fobbed off. I think my options are

a) address it with manager but I would rather hr or general manager there too (or someone neutral)

b) call a meeting myself and recap on the previous fake minutes

So if as expected you get fobbed off by your manager then you go to the general manager. However this should go through the appropriate line management channels first ie line manager, general manager and then if still not getting anywhere HR

Strumms

dreamers75 wrote: »

Most places expect managers to have team daily/weekly/monthly meetings (it makes sense) maybe your manager is faking them to try show higher ups they are happening. Or is afraid to actually have them as your team might slaughter them in an open forum.

Anyway ask for your name to removed if it bothers you.

Speak with the team, get together and agree a course of action..best if everyone is singing from the one sheet.

Go to the most senior manager available, explain what has happened.

In this instance all agree that he may view cctv to prove that that meeting or meetings never took place.

Have a printed copy of the employee manual that mentions ‘falsifying company information’ complete with the recommended course of action ie. dismissal....hand it to the manager investigating. No escape..

drunkmonkey

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

I think my options are

a) address it with manager but I would rather hr or general manager there too (or someone neutral)

b) call a meeting myself and recap on the previous fake minutes

I was thought a good manager should never be there. This guys nailed it, you can learn a lot from him.

If you want meetings offer to chair the meetings and nominate a minute taker or let him keep making them up, either way you'll be next in line for the handy managers job.



Don't report him, this guys a legend. Ask about the Team night out.

STB.

Batgurl wrote: »

I am indeed.

I’m one of those crazy people who look for the full story before jumping to conclusions...mad I know!!!

For example, a manager could mark an employee as present at a meeting because she has given that employee special permission to drop his child off at school and so miss the daily standup. Or because the employee (who is normally reliable) has overslept. It’s not healthy to always assume the worst in people.

However, it seems from the OP’s recent post that the manager did it to push their own agenda, which is not acceptable.

OP - if you just want it noted that you don’t agree with the proposal, ask your manager to remove your name. If you want the proposal re-examined, I suggest you organise your own meeting and invite your manager to discuss.

Well all the clues are in the first post. It seemed quite clear to me. So no need for you to be jumping to conclusions..

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

My manager is faking minutes of meetings that never happened. I have just discovered I was apparently attending them(along with a couple of others)

The meetings never happened. What do I do?

I don't think that first post can be any clearer unless you jumped to conclusions about why that may be. Suggesting that it may have been because the manager had "given that employee special permission to drop his child off at school" "for example" is non sensical. That's not in the first post.

And your recommendations about what course of actions to take next are completely flawed. If they are capable of making up minutes of meetings that never happened, what else are they capable of making up. The OP has clarified that the employees have been looking for team meetings to be held and that the minutes of meetings never held do not reflect the position of the team anyway. Either Walter Mitty stuff or someone dangerously way in over their head. Eitherway they shouldn't be left in any position of authority.

beaufoy

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

My manager is faking minutes of meetings that never happened. I have just discovered I was apparently attending them(along with a couple of others)

The meetings never happened. What do I do?

i believe the odce are there to stop corruption but they are reluctant to do their job

OMM 0000

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

What do I do?

If I were you I'd do nothing.

Companies don't work the way schools do.

In school you're told be honest and work hard.

It's a bad lesson because in the real world it's not like that.

Telling HR will likely backfire on you.

skallywag

Are you completely sure that these meetings never actually happened, as opposed to that he noted down that people attended there who were in fact absent?

If he is really fabricating everything, then it is an extremely serious offence, for which he would be immediately fired in most organisations that I know of. I have seen folk massaging the facts in minutes, or deliberately putting a certain slant on things in order to suit themselves, but I have never come across a case of someone actually making them up completely. I would definitely raise this with him, tell him that he must have been mistaken as you were not there, and see how he reacts. If he is going to blatantly act like this then you really do not want this chap as your boss.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

If I were you I'd do nothing.

Companies don't work the way schools do.

In school you're told be honest and work hard.

It's a bad lesson because in the real world it's not like that.

Telling HR will likely backfire on you.

The OP said they were for external use which suggests there is some sort of oversight.

If it is a small company where the owner is the boss then yeah they probably already know and don't care. If it is bigger there could be reputational risk or even legal implications.

The OP doesn't agree with the supposed decision. We don't know what the company is like. They might want to know this.

893bet

OMM 0000 wrote: »

If I were you I'd do nothing.

Companies don't work the way schools do.

In school you're told be honest and work hard.

It's a bad lesson because in the real world it's not like that.

Telling HR will likely backfire on you.

Agree. A lot of fake “ethic” and “integrity” departments around. Especially US companies. Far removed from the work place.

We don’t punish for speaking up.

No you don’t today.

But the people on site have a long memory.

seamus

Ultimately you have to ask yourself why you want to bring this up.

If there are specific things that you don't want to agree to, then go and speak to the manager directly and tell them you think there's a better way.

If there's a health and safety risk, a fraud risk, or you think someone is fiddling the books financially, then see if there's a whistleblowing policy in the company. This policy usually requires a dedicated contact for whistleblowing (rather than a generic HR contact), and strict procedures on investigation and anonymity.
If there's no policy, then a journalist is an option.

But if it's not serious; if it's the company basically lying to a client in order to secure their business, then you're not going to achieve anything really bringing this up, unless you know for a fact that your company wants to know about it. They will sacrifice you to keep the client, make no mistake.

I imagine at best the manager will be fired and you'll be slotted into a corner somewhere to keep quiet about this until you leave. Or you will be given money to shut up and go find a new job.

But I go back to the start of my post - if it's just a case that you want the opportunity to discuss things before making a decision on them, then keep going to your boss to discuss his "decisions" whenever he produces the meeting minutes. Eventually he'll realise it's less hassle to just hold the meeting and let someone else take the minutes while he looks at his phone.

_Brian

I think take a laid back approach.
Maybe when your with your manager about something else just drop in

“what’s the story with those minutes, I don’t remember that meeting”

I don’t see your directly negatively affected by this. Making a big deal out of this has no upside for anyone from what I can tell.

Zulu

Your manager is committing fraud. Consider that.

I'd suggest having a quiet word with them setting out that they are making a big mistake (committing fraud) and that there is a better solution. Suggest they right their wrong.
After that it's up to you, but I'd be inclined to err on the side of covering my own ar$e. Will it ever get out that you knew about it and said/did nothing?

TuringBot47

skallywag wrote: »

Are you completely sure that these meetings never actually happened, as opposed to that he noted down that people attended there who were in fact absent?

+1

They could just be amending the last copy of the mins, leaving the header in place (with the attendance etc), and filling out the bullet points.

Or attempting to reconstruct the minutes from e-mails afterwards?

Do they have a laptop in the meeting or paper?

forgottenhills

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

My manager is faking minutes of meetings that never happened. I have just discovered I was apparently attending them(along with a couple of others)

The meetings never happened. What do I do?

Going to senior management may cause unknown outcomes for you. The manager may get fired/demoted but you could end up with a worse manager for all you know, or HR could blackball you in the company in some way as they are wont to do, despite all the lip service about whistleblowers.

Look at the situation another way. You now may have power over the manager if you let him/her know that you know s/he has been falsifying documents (you need to be sure this wasn't just a careless error by the way). What do you most want this manager to do for you? Give you the highest annual rating,allow you flexitime, award you a salary increase or promotion? It may be a cynical way of looking at the situation but you now may have some leverage that you can use to your advantage.

_Brian

forgottenhills wrote: »

Going to senior management may cause unknown outcomes for you. The manager may get fired/demoted but you could end up with a worse manager for all you know, or HR could blackball you in the company in some way as they are wont to do, despite all the lip service about whistleblowers.

Look at the situation another way. You now may have power over the manager if you let him/her know that you know s/he has been falsifying documents (you need to be sure this wasn't just a careless error by the way). What do you most want this manager to do for you? Give you the highest annual rating,allow you flexitime, award you a salary increase or promotion? It may be a cynical way of looking at the situation but you now may have some leverage that you can use to your advantage.

It’s very likely senior management are well aware of what has happened.

forgottenhills

_Brian wrote: »

It’s very likely senior management are well aware of what has happened.

Maybe, maybe not. The OP may have some possible leverage with the manager to use at a future date if the manager has been doing a solo run. One way or another running to higher management is probably not the best play for the employee.

Zulu

forgottenhills wrote: »

Look at the situation another way. You now may have power over the manager...

Maybe, maybe not. The OP may have some possible leverage...

This is some serious Walter Mitty stuff right here, and a good indication of how NOT to handle this like a professional.

OP use this as a benchmark as to what not to do, and why not to do it.

_Brian

There’s two reasonable courses of action here.

Either mention it casually to your boss.

Or leave it alone and keep your beak out of whatever is going on.


Thinking op can be some sort of double agent style individual holding this over their manager is bizarre and if this is something most senior staff know about OP will be labelled a trouble maker for making a big deal out of it.

I know situations where employees forced their managers hand with information, but it’s much higher grade stuff than minutes of meetings. Adultery and embezzlement work, but this is low level stuff won’t.

OMM 0000

_Brian wrote: »

There’s two reasonable courses of action here.

Either mention it casually to your boss.

Or leave it alone and keep your beak out of whatever is going on.


Thinking op can be some sort of double agent style individual holding this over their manager is bizarre and if this is something most senior staff know about OP will be labelled a trouble maker for making a big deal out of it.

I know situations where employees forced their managers hand with information, but it’s much higher grade stuff than minutes of meetings. Adultery and embezzlement work, but this is low level stuff won’t.

I agree 100%.

It's at times like this I wish each user had a real profile: age, education, work experience, etc.

It would a give better perspective on some of the responses.

I worked in a company where staff members were literally faking code, faking bugs, faking releases... I was naive enough to speak up about it. Guess who got shot? I did.

All this stuff is very messy and the best approach is almost always don't get involved. You have to think through what the risk/reward is.

_Brian

People must be living very sheltered lives if they haven’t needed to be creative with paperwork at some stage or another in their careers, even exaggerating a CV ??

Tiddlypeeps

It's all well and good to tell OP to keep their nose out of it, but they have been dragged into it. If the manager is claiming OP agrees with a certain course of action when they don't and that course of action ends up causing harm to the company in some way then the OP would very likely be called up on it. That would be a much worse time to share that the meetings never happened because it would sound like you are just making things up to cover your arse and even if they believe you then they will likely think much less of you for not bringing it up sooner.


It's also very unlikely that senior management know the OP's manager is doing this. If the minutes aren't to give senior management some sort of status updates or whatever then who are they for? Why would the manager bother?

OMM 0000

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

It's all well and good to tell OP to keep their nose out of it, but they have been dragged into it. If the manager is claiming OP agrees with a certain course of action when they don't and that course of action ends up causing harm to the company in some way then the OP would very likely be called up on it. That would be a much worse time to share that the meetings never happened because it would sound like you are just making things up to cover your arse and even if they believe you then they will likely think much less of you for not bringing it up sooner.


It's also very unlikely that senior management know the OP's manager is doing this. If the minutes aren't to give senior management some sort of status updates or whatever then who are they for? Why would the manager bother?

But there's a simple way to handle all this.

He just sends an e-mail to his manager stating his concerns about x or y in the project. He doesn't mention the minutes.

Btw it's also possible the manager is not in the wrong here. It's possible the manager is having this discussion in the meeting, asking for feedback, the OP says nothing, so the manager correctly interprets this as the team are in agreement.

I know there's this weird thing on boards where everyone thinks managers are evil, but as a manager I can tell you people are absolutely deluded about their competency and honesty. Most people cannot admit to their flaws.

Strumms

The manager is falsifying company documentation...

I’d speak to him, ask him why it’s happening. You will be able to gauge from his reaction if angry and or defensive that you’ve highlighted this behavior to him will indicate that he’s just pissed he’s been caught and questioned.

No way would I accept my name being included on a publication that included me as being present if I hadn’t been.

_Brian

_Brian wrote: »

People must be living very sheltered lives if they haven’t needed to be creative with paperwork at some stage or another in their careers, even exaggerating a CV ??

However, in a lot of jobs a good portion of the time is spent compiling tedious reports that no one ever reads, google bul**** jobs, so after years of checking the black button a dozen times a day the person starts ticking the box without checking the button.

The years go by noting happens but then the one in a million happens and there is an investigation and the person compiling the checking the black button check list is in trouble.

Never fake anything in work or assume its so trivial it dose not matter because one day the Ryanair engine could fall out of the sky on to the building( a metaphor ) and there will be an investigation.

The meeting was probably supposed to be part of a management matrix that the supervisor has to do as part of the project and instead of doing it they faked the minutes and tiked the box.

A mixtuer of not wanting to confront any issues that could come up and laziness.

skallywag

The crux of the issue here is whether or not the meeting ever took place at all.

If it did, and something has been reported incorrectly (these things can often be down to a simple copy-paste error) then it is one thing, which can be pretty common, and easily corrected. I will always end my own minutes with an open invitation to correct me where I am wrong, which does indeed happen.

If, on the other hand, the minutes have been completely fabricated, and the meeting never actually took place, then this is in a completely different league. Do not underestimate how serious this is, this is not someone jazzing up their CV! If this is really the case then I would be getting out of there ASAP.

skallywag

skallywag wrote: »

The crux of the issue here is whether or not the meeting ever took place at all.

If it did, and something has been reported incorrectly (these things can often be down to a simple copy-paste error) then it is one thing, which can be pretty common, and easily corrected. I will always end my own minutes with an open invitation to correct me where I am wrong, which does indeed happen.

If, on the other hand, the minutes have been completely fabricated, and the meeting never actually took place, then this is in a completely different league. Do not underestimate how serious this is, this is not someone jazzing up their CV! If this is really the case then I would be getting out of there ASAP.

This might be in the realms of urban myth and with modern technology very hard to do, but I have heard of someone getting a job after someone retired or left not sure which, anyway they discovered the person preceding them had been faking most of what they were suppose to do, things they were supposed to supervise and check and had spent most of the day asleep in a toilet cubitical instead.