Overcharge speed limit fine

BrunoBS

Hi all,

I’ve received a traffic fine notification yesterday for something that I did back in July 5th. I was caught driving 11km/h over the speed limit in Donegal (speed limit was 60km/h and I was driving at 71km/h). Usually this offence incur in a fine of €80, however, I’m being charged €160, due to the fact that I missed the previous deadlines for payment.

The problem is that I never received any notification and therefore was not given the chance to pay within the deadline. It was originally issued to our former address in Galway and was never sent again to my current address. So yesterday evening during dinner time (around 8pm) a Garda Officer visited me with the final notification alongside with the summons to appear in court if I don’t pay the fine by December 27th.

I called Garda this morning to understand if I could receive the original fine and was told they cannot do it, so I can either pay the €160 or go to court and try to convince the Judge that I should only pay the €80. However, if I get convicted in that case, I’d get 5 points instead of 3 and would have an even bigger amount to pay.

So, my question is, based on the fact that I changed my address everywhere (Tax Office, NDLS, Garda for Camila’s Stamp 4, Childs Benefit, PPS Number, Post Office, etc) and they could have found me earlier, would it worth to wait and go to court AND would I have a good chance to convince the Judge to decrease the fine amount?

Midnight_EG

BrunoBS wrote: »

Hi all,

I’ve received a traffic fine notification yesterday for something that I did back in July 5th. I was caught driving 11km/h over the speed limit in Donegal (speed limit was 60km/h and I was driving at 71km/h). Usually this offence incur in a fine of €80, however, I’m being charged €160, due to the fact that I missed the previous deadlines for payment.

The problem is that I never received any notification and therefore was not given the chance to pay within the deadline. It was originally issued to our former address in Galway and was never sent again to my current address. So yesterday evening during dinner time (around 8pm) a Garda Officer visited me with the final notification alongside with the summons to appear in court if I don’t pay the fine by December 27th.

I called Garda this morning to understand if I could receive the original fine and was told they cannot do it, so I can either pay the €160 or go to court and try to convince the Judge that I should only pay the €80. However, if I get convicted in that case, I’d get 5 points instead of 3 and would have an even bigger amount to pay.

So, my question is, based on the fact that I changed my address everywhere (Tax Office, NDLS, Garda for Camila’s Stamp 4, Childs Benefit, PPS Number, Post Office, etc) and they could have found me earlier, would it worth to wait and go to court AND would I have a good chance to convince the Judge to decrease the fine amount?

Is the extra €80 worth a missed day's work and a possible low level of satisfaction?

Irishphotodesk

Open to correction but wasn't there a recent action in the high court/supreme court about such a situation.

Google might be your friend here.

BrunoBS

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Is the extra €80 worth a missed day's work and a possible low level of satisfaction?

I know what you mean... I'm actually thinking the same...

but it is very frustrating that there is a loop in the system (they should found me if I informed everyone about my moving) and I'm being penalized by that.

Would you know if I can appeal after paying the fine?

Thanks for the thought...

Salary Negotiator

BrunoBS wrote: »

I know what you mean... I'm actually thinking the same...

but it is very frustrating that there is a loop in the system (they should found me if I informed everyone about my moving) and I'm being penalized by that.

Would you know if I can appeal after paying the fine?

Thanks for the thought...

No appeal if you pay.

When did you change the registered address of the car? I assume this is where the fine is sent to.

BrunoBS

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

Open to correction but wasn't there a recent action in the high court/supreme court about such a situation.

Google might be your friend here.

Hi. Thanks for the tip... I believe I found what you're mentioning in an Irish Times postage. I'll review it accordingly. Cheers.

BrunoBS

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

No appeal if you pay.

When did you change the registered address of the car? I assume this is where the fine is sent to.

Hi. Thanks!

That is exactly the loop I was mentioning (even over the phone, the officer agreed with me, although he could not do anything about it). I tried to change the address in the motor tax website and I could only do that when paying the next motor tax, which happened in August. So I was forced to wait this timeframe to make the change.

Iseedeadpixels

How did they send the letter to your old address but the Garda knew where you currently live?

wonski

The main question is when was the fine issued and where was your car registered at that time?

wonski

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

How did they send the letter to your old address but the Garda knew where you currently live?

They started looking for him when the fine remained unpaid.

Iseedeadpixels

wonski wrote: »

They started looking for him when the fine remained unpaid.

He never mentions that? Seems odd to me that the Garda would know where to find him but not have his address updated for the initial letter.

wonski

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

He never mentions that? Seems dodgy to me.

What's dodgy?

If you don't pay the fine they will track you down and you will have final chance to pay or go to court if you decide not to.

If they sent another letter the Op could claim he never got it.

Since it is now hand delivered by Gardaí there is no "never got the letter judge" excuse available.

BrunoBS

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

How did they send the letter to your old address but the Garda knew where you currently live?

Funny enough, I had moved one week prior to that day, so I had just changed my address everywhere... so I guess they did not have that information when they sent the first notice. However, they could send a second time shortly after and they'd have my current address.

Iseedeadpixels

wonski wrote: »

What's dodgy?

If you don't pay the fine they will track you down and you will have final chance to pay or go to court if you decide not to.

If they sent another letter the Op could claim he never got it.

Since it is now hand delivered by Gardaí there is no "never got the letter judge" excuse available.

I changed my comment as I said it wrong, I had a speeding charge that I didnt pay during recession times being broke and the Garda never knocked on my door, is this a new thing?

Just find it hard that the Garda so easily tracked him down in another County, unless his name is super unique there are probably plenty others with his name.

Infernal Racket

A garda would not visit your house with a penalty notice AND a court summons. Doesn't work that way

wonski

But did you change it everywhere including sending the vlc to Shannon?

Or everywhere except that?

It does take few days to process so if that was the case then it's not your fault, just bad timing.

If however you haven't changed registered address in Shannon, then I would just pay 160 and forget about it.

Lesson learned and all that.

wonski

Gerry G wrote: »

A garda would not visit your house with a penalty notice AND a court summons. Doesn't work that way

Is it not summons with option to pay within 30 days?

Unless the OP got summoned to court for not paying 160 and misread it.

BrunoBS

wonski wrote: »

What's dodgy?

If you don't pay the fine they will track you down and you will have final chance to pay or go to court if you decide not to.

If they sent another letter the Op could claim he never got it.

Since it is now hand delivered by Gardaí there is no "never got the letter judge" excuse available.

Hi. I appreciate your reply and even understand your point. Of course they were "looking for me" since the fine was not paid.

But it is a fact that I never received the original notice. I moved addresses and informed everyone... I actually bought the house I'm living at now, so there are hundreds of taxes and official documents with my current address associated with my pps number, my driver's license, my taxes and so on... Everything available since June/July... so it is odd to me as well that they could not send a second letter after receiving the "return to sender" for the first one in time...

BrunoBS

wonski wrote: »

But did you change it everywhere including sending the vlc to Shannon?

Or everywhere except that?

It does take few days to process so if that was the case then it's not your fault, just bad timing.

If however you haven't changed registered address in Shannon, then I would just pay 160 and forget about it.

Lesson learned and all that.

Thanks for the tip... I changed the registered address when paying the motor tax in August.

BrunoBS

wonski wrote: »

Is it not summons with option to pay within 30 days?

Unless the OP got summoned to court for not paying 160 and misread it.

Yes, I have the option to pay within 30 days, but the €160. If I don't pay then I need to show up in court.

wonski

In this case I would just pay now.

Easier than going to the court and arguing where the fine should originally go.

And based on what you said here it did go to the address they had on file.

Of course it is your choice at the end.

BrunoBS

Gerry G wrote: »

A garda would not visit your house with a penalty notice AND a court summons. Doesn't work that way

Hi. I got two papers from the Officer yesterday at my front door... One is the actual Fixed Charge Notice with the pic of my car, explaining the offence. The other is a yellow form with the alleged offence in the front and the court information on the back, requiring me to attend the sitting to answer the accusation.

BrunoBS

wonski wrote: »

In this case I would just pay now.

Easier than going to the court and arguing where the fine should originally go.

And based on what you said here it did go to the address they had on file.

Of course it is your choice at the end.

Thanks. I really appreciate your messages and opinion. That's exactly what I'm looking for here. Cheers.

Salary Negotiator

BrunoBS wrote: »

Thanks. I really appreciate your messages and opinion. That's exactly what I'm looking for here. Cheers.

I think you're as well to pay. The fine goes to the registered address of the car and you can change this outside of taxing the car, so I doubt a judge would side with you and you'll likely end up with 5 points.

RobbieMD

BrunoBS wrote: »

Hi. I got two papers from the Officer yesterday at my front door... One is the actual Fixed Charge Notice with the pic of my car, explaining the offence. The other is a yellow form with the alleged offence in the front and the court information on the back, requiring me to attend the sitting to answer the accusation.

The FCPN procedure changed in the last year or so. Too many cases where being struck out if the defendant would swear on oath they never received the original FCN in the post.

The yellow summons offers a final time to pay the fine at twice the ordinary amount. Should you fail to pay you must attend the court date on the yellow notice. I hope this clears it up for you.

BrunoBS

RobbieMD wrote: »

The FCPN procedure changed in the last year or so. Too many cases where being struck out if the defendant would swear on oath they never received the original FCN in the post.

The yellow summons offers a final time to pay the fine at twice the ordinary amount. Should you fail to pay you must attend the court date on the yellow notice. I hope this clears it up for you.

Thank you. That's clear, cheers!

My only frustration is that I never received the original FCN indeed...

But thanks for helping clarify the process.

BrunoBS

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

I think you're as well to pay. The fine goes to the registered address of the car and you can change this outside of taxing the car, so I doubt a judge would side with you and you'll likely end up with 5 points.

Thanks. I guess you're right.

I was not aware I could change the address outside of taxing the car. I went online and that was the only option I could find.

And of course, they had over 4 months to find me so I had the chance to pay the original amount...

But anyways, I might as well pay the €160 and forget about it. Not without being pissed, though... Cheers.

wonski

For future reference you should send VLC to Shannon to change your address, it was not possible online unless taxing the vehicle last time I checked, that's correct.

BrunoBS

wonski wrote: »

For future reference you should send VLC to Shannon to change your address, it was not possible online unless taxing the vehicle last time I checked, that's correct.

Thanks a mill. That will be helpful for future reference indeed...

Iseedeadpixels

RobbieMD wrote: »

The FCPN procedure changed in the last year or so. Too many cases where being struck out if the defendant would swear on oath they never received the original FCN in the post.

The yellow summons offers a final time to pay the fine at twice the ordinary amount. Should you fail to pay you must attend the court date on the yellow notice. I hope this clears it up for you.

TIL, thats why I thought it was odd never heard of it happening before, sorry OP I admit I was wrong I would pay the fine now as the Judge will just add on the extra points and you'll be hit harder come insurance renewal.

RobbieMD

BrunoBS wrote: »

Thank you. That's clear, cheers!

My only frustration is that I never received the original FCN indeed...

But thanks for helping clarify the process.

I get that alright. But the upside of the new procedure means a court date is not mandatory.

The old way it worked, on the summons date either the judge would accept you didn’t get the notice and strike it out, or as one judge used to say; An Post deliver 95% of post in X days. And she’d take no nonsense and people like yourself who genuinely didn’t receive the notice would be convicted, fined and given twice the penalty points.

In court upon conviction the judge has no discretion regarding penalty points and they double. They can vary the fine. The standard fine would be higher than €160 in the FCN too.

colm_mcm

BrunoBS wrote: »

Hi. Thanks!

That is exactly the loop I was mentioning (even over the phone, the officer agreed with me, although he could not do anything about it). I tried to change the address in the motor tax website and I could only do that when paying the next motor tax, which happened in August. So I was forced to wait this timeframe to make the change.

You need to actually sign and return the current VRC for the change of address to fully go through.

BrunoBS

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

TIL, thats why I thought it was odd never heard of it happening before, sorry OP I admit I was wrong I would pay the fine now as the Judge will just add on the extra points and you'll be hit harder come insurance renewal.

Thanks... you're right. It looks like this is the less painful decision...:(

BrunoBS

RobbieMD wrote: »

I get that alright. But the upside of the new procedure means a court date is not mandatory.

The old way it worked, on the summons date either the judge would accept you didn’t get the notice and strike it out, or as one judge used to say; An Post deliver 95% of post in X days. And she’d take no nonsense and people like yourself who genuinely didn’t receive the notice would be convicted, fined and given twice the penalty points.

In court upon conviction the judge has no discretion regarding penalty points and they double. They can vary the fine. The standard fine would be higher than €160 in the FCN too.

Thanks. I won't chance it. Will pay the fine before the deadline and "live with that"

BrunoBS

colm_mcm wrote: »

You need to actually sign and return the current VRC for the change of address to fully go through.

Thanks for that info. I'll review that I got it right. Cheers.

GM228

RobbieMD wrote: »

The FCPN procedure changed in the last year or so. Too many cases where being struck out if the defendant would swear on oath they never received the original FCN in the post.

The yellow summons offers a final time to pay the fine at twice the ordinary amount. Should you fail to pay you must attend the court date on the yellow notice. I hope this clears it up for you.

The summons is accompanied by the new "Section 44" notice which is now declared unconstitutional.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057811614&page=1

The defence of I didn't get the original FCPN is now back on the table with both postage and receipt of summons having to be proved by the state.

BrunoBS

GM228 wrote: »

The summons is accompanied by the new "Section 44" notice which is now declared unconstitutional.



The defence of I didn't get the original FCPN is now back on the table with both postage and receipt of summons having to be proved by the state.

Thank you very much for this information. I've found a few reports on the same, but was not sure if that would be enough for an appeal. I'll discuss this with a solicitor and check whether we can use it to reduce the charge.

Thank you again.