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Termination Letter from landlord with multiple properties

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  • Registered Users Posts: 378 ✭✭Saudades


    His lawyer sent me another letter yesterday saying that my landlord's daughter who "requires" my apartment for her use is available to meet with me to confirm that she requires to move into my apartment.

    Could be a hired actress; I would suggest her and the landlord to take DNA tests. :o


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,493 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Considering that ending a tenancy is permitted if it is needed for a family member, proof that the family member exists and needs it is compelling evidence. In effect, the RTB would be going against the legislation. So I wouldn’t be spending the money yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Considering that ending a tenancy is permitted if it is needed for a family member, proof that the family member exists and needs it is compelling evidence. In effect, the RTB would be going against the legislation. So I wouldn’t be spending the money yet.

    The thing you forgot about is that i proved that at least 5 other of his apts were empty and advertised for let on Daft the same time i was handed the Notice. They cant dispute that. Their motive is clear and their appeal will collapse on this fact alone.

    Here is the extract from my determination order and an old rulling that my adjudicator quoted to support the decision:

    (...)
    The Adjudicator does not accept that the Respondent required the dwelling for his daughter when there were a number of other very similar dwellings in the buildings owned by the Respondent available to be let just weeks after the Notice of Termination was served on the Applicant.
    In particular when the Landlord was asked why he could not let an identical dwelling i.e. a studio apartment to his daughter he responded that the one the Tenant was living in was the one his daughter wanted. It confirms the requirement was not bone fide and appeared to be related to the fact that Respondent did not get the Tenant to agree to pay an illegal rent increase.

    Paragraph 4 of the Table to s.34 of the 2004 At was examined in Duniyva v Residential Tenancies Board [2017 IEHC 578. Mt Justice Barrett noted:
    “Ms Duniyva points to the fact that the ground for termination is that the landlord ‘requires the dwelling…’ (emphasis added), and suggests that termination of the tenancy must be essential or important rather than just desirable. The court notes that in the Oxford Online
    Dictionary, when it comes to: (1) the verb ‘ require’, the principal definition provided is ‘ need for a particular purpose’; and (2) the verb ‘ need’, the principal definition provided is ‘ require (something) because it is essential or very important rather than just desirable’.[1] Having regard to the just-stated definitions, the court considers that the use of the third-person singular form of the verb “to require” in para.4 of the Table to s.34 has the result that a landlord must “need” the dwelling in issue, which has the effect that termination of the tenancy must be essential or very important to him (or her), rather than just desirable.
    That need has a subjective and an objective dimension, in the sense that a Tenancy Tribunal would need to look to whether a landlord subjectively requires a dwelling (here
    the statutory declaration, it seems to the court, would typically be determinative) and also to whether that perceived requirement is a bona fide requirement and not (i) a requirement that a landlord purports to exist but which does not in truth exist, or (ii) a requirement that is advanced to achieve an unlawful objective, e.g., the perpetration of unlawful discrimination contrary to the Equal Status Acts.
    (...)


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    Hi again, I am the OP of this tread. To everyone who ever followed my story here, I have a little update.

    As you know I won my RTB case in January 2020 against my landlord and got awarded €5000 in compensation. My landlord has immediately appealed and the new case was scheduled for March 2020. Due to the pandemic it got postponed and we still dont know when the appeal will take place. But here is a little twist - my case was noticed by one of the biggest legal companies in Ireland and they offered to represent me at my appeal. Imagine that, God must love me and it restored my faith in justice.
    Months have since passed on waiting for the new appeal date. Since my January hearing I discovered that an additional 9 flats identical to my one became available in my building and got quickly rented out to new tenants. Great, more supportive evidence for my case. I took pics, spoke to old and new tenants and saved these stuff in my appeal folder.

    But yesterday my legal team (I love using this term!) got a letter from my landlord's solicitor. Listen to it - they now say that the "daughter" who required my flat no longer requires it as her plans changed due to Covid. The landlord is happy to withdraw the appeal if I drop my €5K compensation. They said that if I dont drop it they will proceed with the appeal.
    Looks like I just won my appeal before it even took place since the main bone of contention (the sweet and fake daughter reason to terminate my tenancy) no longer exists. Since they now confirm this in the letter then they can only try to contest the compensation amount that I was awarded. They will have to spend at least €3K for their solicitors and barristers to fight me, risk their illegal dealings to be exposed publicly, they reputation destroyed and they still risk that my compensation may still stay. I also have a strong legal team on my side now who will do all the legal talk, which I am poor at.
    I lose absolutely nothing to proceed with the appeal but everything to win, while they have everything to lose if they appeal and a tiny chance that my compensation is decreased at the appeal.

    I so look forward to my appeal now, can't wait to name him publicly and prevent him and his family to ever do this to other tenants like they do for years.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Delighted to hear it's working out for you Curious1002 and fair play to you for sticking with it.

    Sounds like your landlord is completely setting himself up.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,493 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Hi again, I am the OP of this tread. To everyone who ever followed my story here, I have a little update.

    As you know I won my RTB case in January 2020 against my landlord and got awarded €5000 in compensation. My landlord has immediately appealed and the new case was scheduled for March 2020. Due to the pandemic it got postponed and we still dont know when the appeal will take place. But here is a little twist - my case was noticed by one of the biggest legal companies in Ireland and they offered to represent me at my appeal. Imagine that, God must love me and it restored my faith in justice.
    Months have since passed on waiting for the new appeal date. Since my January hearing I discovered that an additional 9 flats identical to my one became available in my building and got quickly rented out to new tenants. Great, more supportive evidence for my case. I took pics, spoke to old and new tenants and saved these stuff in my appeal folder.

    But yesterday my legal team (I love using this term!) got a letter from my landlord's solicitor. Listen to it - they now say that the "daughter" who required my flat no longer requires it as her plans changed due to Covid. The landlord is happy to withdraw the appeal if I drop my €5K compensation. They said that if I dont drop it they will proceed with the appeal.
    Looks like I just won my appeal before it even took place since the main bone of contention (the sweet and fake daughter reason to terminate my tenancy) no longer exists. Since they now confirm this in the letter then they can only try to contest the compensation amount that I was awarded. They will have to spend at least €3K for their solicitors and barristers to fight me, risk their illegal dealings to be exposed publicly, they reputation destroyed and they still risk that my compensation may still stay. I also have a strong legal team on my side now who will do all the legal talk, which I am poor at.
    I lose absolutely nothing to proceed with the appeal but everything to win, while they have everything to lose if they appeal and a tiny chance that my compensation is decreased at the appeal.

    I so look forward to my appeal now, can't wait to name him publicly and prevent him and his family to ever do this to other tenants like they do for years.

    How have you won your appeal?

    The LL can appeal the decision even though his daughter no longer needs the property due to Covid, she did need it at the time you were served with a notice of termination and that is what the hearing took account of.

    What baring has other apartments becoming available after your hearing got on your case if the LL appeals the decision? Many properties have become vacant since the lockdown, as with the LLs daughter, a lot of people no longer need their rental properties.

    And why would the LL need to spend €3k on a Barrister to appeal the RTB decision? I thought it cost €100 to appeal.

    You could lose your award, the notice could be ruled valid, the LL by winning the appeal could save himself €5k, so has something to gain and you have something to lose depending on the result of the appeal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,649 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    OP has nothing to lose certainly.

    If the family own 70+ apartments as is claimed, 14~20 million. They probably have a half dozen of these every year, probably have done for decades.
    They probably consider this a normal business expense, same as stationary.


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    Dav010 wrote: »
    How have you won your appeal?

    They said in the letter that they will no longer fight the Notice of Termination but the compensation amount only. Thats how I won my case already. I won it back in January and the notice was deemed invalid. It's invalid, was invalid and will be invalid no matter what you, Dave, say.
    The compensation was never in my mind, I never asked for it so I dont lose anything that I never had. It's just a bonus that I was awarded at the January hearing because the case outraged the adjudicator. They lied to the judge and got caught red handed. They brought a document that the adjudicator found to be fake and gave them 5 days to deliver a real document. They did not and only sent an apology for providing a fake document "accidentally". Once it's over I will post here the entire case so you understand what happened.
    Dav010 wrote: »
    The LL can appeal the decision even though his daughter no longer needs the property due to Covid, she did need it at the time you were served with a notice of termination and that is what the hearing took account of.

    It was proven beyond any doubt that the "daughter requires my flat" was my landlord's fake reason given to me 2 days after I rebuffed his substantial renovation reason. Read my opening post.
    The landlord claimed that my apt is required for his daughter despite having 3 or 4 other flats available for rent the day her handed me his notice in November. I showed in court his Daft adverts and pics of the available flats and it won my case in January. You have to understand what "required", "needed" and "desired" means to understand the legality of my landlord's claim. The Duniyva case quoted by the adjudicator (see my comment #184 above) explains the nuances of these 3 words and is often used in cases like mine. Thank God for Ms. Duniyva who brought her case to the High Court!
    Dav010 wrote: »
    What baring has other apartments becoming available after your hearing got on your case if the LL appeals the decision? Many properties have become vacant since the lockdown, as with the LLs daughter, a lot of people no longer need their rental properties.

    I proved in January that the word "Required" does not exist here as my landlord did not have to evict Part 4 tenant (me) to offer my flat to his daughter while having other empty flats advertised for rent at the same time. After January case I gathered evidence of an additional 9 available flats which only straightened my case even further. There has never been a need of my flat for his daughter. You dont have to make someone homeless only because I have better curtains and a toilet seat than the other 9 empty apartments.

    I remember you, Dav010, you have always questioned my intentions from the start while backing up my landlord no matter what I wrote here. I see how that nothing will change your mind, not even a clean cut case like this one. Sad, Dav, but thankfully others support me here.
    Dav010 wrote: »
    And why would the LL need to spend €3k on a Barrister to appeal the RTB decision? I thought it cost €100 to appeal.

    Because thats how much it costs to hire a solicitor and a barrister to work on your case. They worked on my 150-page long evidence file for weeks so €3K is the minimum my landlord pays to his legal aid to fight the already lost case. The barrister's services cost min €200-300 per hour so you do calculations yourself. The prices are published and widely available so do some reading if you want.
    Dav010 wrote: »
    You could lose your award, the notice could be ruled valid, the LL by winning the appeal could save himself €5k, so has something to gain and you have something to lose depending on the result of the appeal.

    True, I could lose the award but you see I dont care about the award because I never had it, so no attachment is formed to it yet. Would be nice to have it but no hard feelings if I dont get it. There is ZERO chance that the notice could be deemed valid at this stage since the reason is being withdrawn by the landlord himself and when the first hearing deemed it invalid. Do you think that the Tribunal will make it valid against the landlord's wish now? He withdrew it so he lost the case. I was fighting to be allowed to stay in my flat and I will stay. He can only fight the €5K and I am happy that he will because thanks to this everyone will learn about this crook.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,493 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Is the LL appealing a Court ruling or an RTB ruling? I’m confused as to why he needs a solicitor and Barrister. The LL can appeal an RTB ruling by paying €100.


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Is the LL appealing a Court ruling or an RTB ruling? I’m confused as to why he needs a solicitor and Barrister. The LL can appeal an RTB ruling by paying €100.

    He didnt have to but he dragged 2 solicitors and a barrister with him at the January hearing while I was there on my own. So 100% that he will do the same for the appeal. Bringing an army of legal aid with you can be intimidating to the other side so this was probably his aim. I was scared and forgot my own name during the proceedings but got a bit relaxed later as the adjudicator was asking my landlord questions directly and I realised that he is digging a grave for himself. His barrister tried to help him but the landlord said way too much already and changed the same story 3 times which the adjudicator pointed out to him.

    I am an amateur to the legal stuff so the RTB, Tribunal and Court is all the same for me while it's probably a big difference to more knowledgeable people. The January case was the RTB Adjudication. Now the appeal will be with the Tribunal (also with the RTB I think). If he loses the Tribunal appeal then he can appeal to the High Court, I think.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mod Note

    OP, consider carefully how much information you want to post at this stage. I'd imagine it's already easy for any involved parties to recognise the case being discussed.

    Some things may be better left unsaid at least until everything is concluded.


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    Graham wrote: »
    Mod Note

    OP, consider carefully how much information you want to post at this stage. I'd imaging it's already for any involved parties to recognise the case being discussed.

    Some things may be better left unsaid at least until everything is concluded.

    100% true. I got carried away a bit. Thanks for keeping an eye on these things and curbing my wings - all rightly so.

    I better wait for the final conclusion of this case to post more info here.

    Thanks again, Graham!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    He didnt have to but he dragged 2 solicitors and a barrister with him at the January hearing while I was there on my own. So 100% that he will do the same for the appeal. Bringing an army of legal aid with you can be intimidating to the other side so this was probably his aim. I was scared and forgot my own name during the proceedings but got a bit relaxed later as the adjudicator was asking my landlord questions directly and I realised that he is digging a grave for himself. His barrister tried to help him but the landlord said way too much already and changed the same story 3 times which the adjudicator pointed out to him.

    I am an amateur to the legal stuff so the RTB, Tribunal and Court is all the same for me while it's probably a big difference to more knowledgeable people. The January case was the RTB Adjudication. Now the appeal will be with the Tribunal (also with the RTB I think). If he loses the Tribunal appeal then he can appeal to the High Court, I think.

    Well done OP, glad you got some legal assistance.

    You are right, it could only be an appeal through the RTB, HC is for points of law only and circuit court decisions only in the case of enforcement proceedings.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭bobbyy gee


    only problem is your legal team will take half
    make sure you show up at appeal
    if it goes ahead which i don't think he will
    and he will not try and evuct you again


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭circular flexing


    bobbyy gee wrote: »
    only problem is your legal team will take half
    make sure you show up at appeal
    if it goes ahead which i don't think he will
    and he will not try and evuct you again


    Why would the legal team take half? The award was awarded before the legal team got involved so I don't see how they could have a claim if the award is upheld (OP seems to indicate they are working pro-bono too). In any case, 10% is usually what a solicitor will take from an award.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Thephantomsmask


    My ex landlord tried similar by lodging an appeal on the basis that the amount rewarded was too severe, claiming he would no longer contest the illegal termination, only the damages. The adjudicators took a dim view of this and basically said that is was not possible to choose which parts of the case could be appealed as it is a de novo hearing and both parties must go through everything from scratch. Best of luck OP, I hope it all goes well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,588 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    But yesterday my legal team (I love using this term!) got a letter from my landlord's solicitor. Listen to it - they now say that the "daughter" who required my flat no longer requires it as her plans changed due to Covid. The landlord is happy to withdraw the appeal if I drop my €5K compensation. They said that if I dont drop it they will proceed with the appeal.

    This seems like a ludicrous offer, he'll drop the appeal (over the compensation) if you agree that he doesn't have to pay the compensation. I'm not sure why anyone would agree to that :D

    Good luck with it OP


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,649 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Can't be many LL with a vast amount of properties who will waste their time and money going to the RTB with a legal team. Over such a trivial account. Or even fighting this. It's spending pounds to save pennies. Makes no sense, especially for someone who must be financially smart to accumulated such wealth in the first place. I doubt if even a LL with one property would do it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,230 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Why would the legal team take half? The award was awarded before the legal team got involved so I don't see how they could have a claim if the award is upheld (OP seems to indicate they are working pro-bono too). In any case, 10% is usually what a solicitor will take from an award.
    A solicitor is only permitted to charge a fee on a percentage basis in a debt collection case. In many cases the fee is charged on an hourly basis together with an instruction fee. Sometimes a fixed fee is agreed. A well known auctioneering firm spent €27,000 in legal fees in the Dublin District Court to recover a debt of €4500. Because of the scale fees in the District Court there were only able to recover about €600 in fees from the Defendant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    So if you drop the case you get nothing, if you go an lose it costs you nothing and if you win you get 5K. Just incase I ever need a solicitor can you let me know the name of the one he is using as I want to make sure I never ever ever accidently use them.

    By the way, don't ignore their letters, answer them even if it's just to say thank your letter and come up with some simple question they would have to respond to. They charge about 100 quid a letter each letter is costing him 100 quid, you could easily make that 400 or 500 for the price of a few stamps.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    So if you drop the case you get nothing, if you go an lose it costs you nothing and if you win you get 5K. Just incase I ever need a solicitor can you let me know the name of the one he is using as I want to make sure I never ever ever accidently use them.

    By the way, don't ignore their letters, answer them even if it's just to say thank your letter and come up with some simple question they would have to respond to. They charge about 100 quid a letter each letter is costing him 100 quid, you could easily make that 400 or 500 for the price of a few stamps.

    Lol, you got it, I will mention this "brilliant" guy and his firm here when things are done and dusted. I will certainly reply to all the legal letters via my team - all nice and sweet, "thank you but no, thank you".
    I bet that after things are finally over with this case I will be handed a brand new termination letter. These kind of people (with such legal aid) dont give up so easily. Whatever serious move he makes against me I will meet him in court again.


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