How do I leave the Church

antiskeptic

smacl wrote: »

You seem to have some rather strange notions about what a god is or isn't.

You were appealing to human rights - as if having to opt out infringed on these. Which objective source (for such is the function of a god) do you point to?

I agree that faith formation should come down to parental preference, but then there should also be accompanying parental responsibility. The notion of opt-in rather than opt-out is also one advocated by the Archdiocese of Dublin, as described in this recent IT article. I think from the RCC perspective this is a drive to get some of the supposed flock back into church more than once or twice a year though I could see it back-firing. Cynically, you could say that many nominally Catholic parents want all the faith formation stuff left in schools because this requires no expenditure of time or effort on their part. If they actually had to become involved, it might separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

The issue was your thinking it infringed on human rights to bring a child up in a creed. What is it about a religious creed that differs from raising your child into any form of belief. Saying thank you. Not throwing their litter away. That picking your nose is disgusting.

You appear to special casing.

sondagefaux

OU812 wrote: »

It’s really not.

I take it you've never been to the bus station in Monaghan?

smacl

antiskeptic wrote: »

The issue was your thinking it infringed on human rights to bring a child up in a creed. What is it about a religious creed that differs from raising your child into any form of belief. Saying thank you. Not throwing their litter away. That picking your nose is disgusting.

Can I ask you to point out where I made any such assertion? I have fully support the rights of parents to raise their children in their own traditions and strongly support both freedom of religious expression and freedom from the contrary religious beliefs of others. The human rights issue is where the only available free education offered by the state for the vast majority of children is a religious ethos one where that religious ethos may run contrary to the traditions of many families.

davedonie

You just send a letter to the bishop to ask to defect. You are allowed to defect under Vatican II. They send you your baptismal cert with DEFECTED stamped on it.
Then after 12 months you ask that your name be removed from their files as per GDPR.
Your parents prolally thought they were doing the right thing by you for your own good, genuinely.
Once your defected you're free to join the church of the flying spaghetti monster.
After I defected my only concern was what happens for my funeral but then i thought feck it I'll be dead, not my problem 😠but figured I may organise something in advance, which is morbid, but I joined the humanist association and can organise something with them.... many years from now 😜

Hotblack Desiato

Your post is basically entirely incorrect.

- It is currently not possible to defect.
- It is currently not possible to have data deleted using GDPR, but the Data Protection Commissioner is looking into complaints about this
- It is not necessary to do anything to be able to join another church. You just join another church.
- It's extremely unlikely that leaving the church, 'officially' or otherwise would prevent a church funeral for you if your next of kin requested one.
- There is no problem having non-religious funerals in Ireland. Although burial in Donegal is currently not available apart from church-owned cemeteries.
- It's not necessary to join the Humanist Association of Ireland to get a humanist or non-religious funeral.

But apart from the above, it was grand

ChrisJ84

smacl wrote: »

Can I ask you to point out where I made any such assertion? I have fully support the rights of parents to raise their children in their own traditions and strongly support both freedom of religious expression and freedom from the contrary religious beliefs of others. The human rights issue is where the only available free education offered by the state for the vast majority of children is a religious ethos one where that religious ethos may run contrary to the traditions of many families.

I tend to agree with you on this, though I don't have a problem with state funded religious ethos schools per se. For example, the relatively small number of state funded CoI and Presbyterian schools meet a genuine need.

Is what you want a greater mix in the ethos of state funded schools, where the number of Roman Catholic ethos schools is in decline (and likely to eventually be a minority), or do you want to see religious ethos excluded from state funded schools altogether?

smacl

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

I tend to agree with you on this, though I don't have a problem with state funded religious ethos schools per se. For example, the relatively small number of state funded CoI and Presbyterian schools meet a genuine need.

Is what you want a greater mix in the ethos of state funded schools, where the number of Roman Catholic ethos schools is in decline (and likely to eventually be a minority), or do you want to see religious ethos excluded from state funded schools altogether?

I'm of the opinion there are a lot of criteria we need to look at in terms of doing the best we can for all our children when it comes to spending money on education, where religious ethos is just one of these. Other include the ability to send your child to a local school, ideally where they can walk or cycle to get there, and for the local school to be well staffed with good facilities. Economy of scale in this context goes against the idea of having lots of smaller schools with separate and distinct ethos, where having fewer larger schools that support and encourage the diversity of traditions we have in modern society make more sense. The same goes for segregation of genders into single sex schools. I've no big issue with religious instruction being taught in school hours once it is on an opt-in basis and other subjects are taught at the same time. I'd tend to agree with the Archdiocese position that religious instruction requires more parental involvement and should take place more in the church and home for those that want to maintain such tradition. It is also worth remembering that even religious ethos schools are almost entirely run by lay teachers, who are showing an increasing indifference to religion.

So short answer, no I don't think we need more small single ethos schools. I think we need fewer larger pluralistic multi-denominational school.

Bobtheman

OU812 wrote: »

It’s really not.

Try teaching and come back to me

ChrisJ84

smacl wrote: »

I'm of the opinion there are a lot of criteria we need to look at in terms of doing the best we can for all our children when it comes to spending money on education, where religious ethos is just one of these. Other include the ability to send your child to a local school, ideally where they can walk or cycle to get there, and for the local school to be well staffed with good facilities. Economy of scale in this context goes against the idea of having lots of smaller schools with separate and distinct ethos, where having fewer larger schools that support and encourage the diversity of traditions we have in modern society make more sense. The same goes for segregation of genders into single sex schools. I've no big issue with religious instruction being taught in school hours once it is on an opt-in basis and other subjects are taught at the same time. I'd tend to agree with the Archdiocese position that religious instruction requires more parental involvement and should take place more in the church and home for those that want to maintain such tradition. It is also worth remembering that even religious ethos schools are almost entirely run by lay teachers, who are showing an increasing indifference to religion.

So short answer, no I don't think we need more small single ethos schools. I think we need fewer larger pluralistic multi-denominational school.

I'm not suggesting that we try and provide schools to cater for any and every religious ethos, and I agree that school cannot and should not take the place of religious teaching in the church and home. And there is always going to be compromise required in how schooling is provided, no school is going to be a perfect reflection of everything we would want.

I'm just saying that where there is a demand schools with a religious ethos (and particularly where such schools already exist) then it's a perfectly acceptable way to spend public money.

I'm also curious as to whether you (and other atheists who post here) want to see the number of RC ethos schools decrease and the number of non-religious ethos schools increase, or whether you want to see religious ethos excluded from public schooling altogether. The former seems reasonable, doable, and reflective of the pluralistic society we live in.

smacl

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

I'm just saying that where there is a demand schools with a religious ethos (and particularly where such schools already exist) then it's a perfectly acceptable way to spend public money.

That's fair enough but I don't think that this demand has been adequately measured particularly in the context of other variables that are affected by that choice, particularly proximity to the school, facilities available and resources available (not least for SNAs, student teacher ratio, etc...). Many smaller schools, as necessitated by exclusive ethos or single gender, cost much more to the taxpayer to build and run per pupil educated. I'm not aware of any study that has looked at parental preference in this context but would be of the opinion most parents are looking for the best educational outcome first and foremost.

I'm also curious as to whether you (and other atheists who post here) want to see the number of RC ethos schools decrease and the number of non-religious ethos schools increase, or whether you want to see religious ethos excluded from public schooling altogether. The former seems reasonable, doable, and reflective of the pluralistic society we live in.

I think we need an education system that supports all traditions on an inclusive basis. A system that promotes segregation by creed is all too close to supporting sectarianism in my humble opinion.

Bobtheman

Why is so much time given to this snowflake? Do you people have nothing better to do ??

smacl

Bobtheman wrote: »

Why is so much time given to this snowflake? Do you people have nothing better to do ??

Mod warning: This is a discussion forum. Not sure who (or what) you are referring to as a snowflake but personal attacks will not be tolerated. Please raise the standard of your posts before posting on this thread again. Thanks for your attention.

Bobtheman

Well I just think this thread is pointless? Is it really that important to formally leave an institution that doesn't require annual registration??

smacl

Bobtheman wrote: »

Well I just think this thread is pointless? Is it really that important to formally leave an institution that doesn't require annual registration??

Clearly it is for those that started the thread and (other than yourself perhaps) those who continue to post in it. There's a similar thread over on the A&A forum, so it would appear to be a topic of interest to quite a few people.

I think for some people it amounts to wanting to publicly dissociate themselves from the Catholic church as a result of ongoing scandals over the years, stance on reproductive health and attitude to the LGBT community. I've a couple of friends who still consider themselves Christian but no longer Catholic on this basis and others who have rejected religion entirely.

Out of interest, why post on a thread you think is pointless if you don't have a view on the matter yourself?

Bobtheman

smacl wrote: »

Clearly it is for those that started the thread and (other than yourself perhaps) those who continue to post in it. There's a similar thread over on the A&A forum, so it would appear to be a topic of interest to quite a few people.

I think for some people it amounts to wanting to publicly dissociate themselves from the Catholic church as a result of ongoing scandals over the years, stance on reproductive health and attitude to the LGBT community. I've a couple of friends who still consider themselves Christian but no longer Catholic on this basis and others who have rejected religion entirely.

Out of interest, why post on a thread you think is pointless if you don't have a view on the matter yourself?

It's virtue signalling pure and simple. There is no publicly available list of members. Nobody knows who is in . Thus it smacks of a person in search of victim hood. If fhis preoccupies your mind - God help you. Fair enough if the church actually harmed you but no evidence here . Bar a man with too much time on his hands and a fixation on having a pop at his poor old parents.

antiskeptic

smacl wrote: »

Clearly it is for those that started the thread and (other than yourself perhaps) those who continue to post in it. There's a similar thread over on the A&A forum, so it would appear to be a topic of interest to quite a few people.

I think for some people it amounts to wanting to publicly dissociate themselves from the Catholic church as a result of ongoing scandals over the years, stance on reproductive health and attitude to the LGBT community. I've a couple of friends who still consider themselves Christian but no longer Catholic on this basis and others who have rejected religion entirely.

Out of interest, why post on a thread you think is pointless if you don't have a view on the matter yourself?

Surely the only authority the Catholic church have to count you as a member stems from themselves. Isn't is a case of someone setting up (app based sounds best) an authority to declare ones removal from that church? If it really matters.

The idea of wanting an authority that you don't recognise, provide a formal declaration of terminated membership of their organisation, requires you to recognise that authorities authority to terminate membership.

Strikes me that the hullabaloo over such a thing (how do I leave) is a case of hullaballoos sake. Like walking into a Christian cake shop looking for trouble.