Over 1 Million in Detention Camps in China

markodaly

Deleted User wrote: »

There's this misconception that if I defend some elements of Chinese behavior, and points out the behavior of western nations as a comparison

No misconception at all I think.
Your knee-jerk return to 'whataboutery' is there for all to see.

Not one mention of the Uyghurs in China.... So... what the fcuk are you complaining about?

As for my supposed paymasters in China... some evidence please, or withdraw the remark. That's an accusation and frankly offensive. Your objection is completely flawed considering no mention of the Uyghurs in China was even mentioned before I posted. (or that I receive some kind of payment for my opinions about China)

Touched a nerve. For someone nitpicking on the term Ughyers you do yourself no favour by then constantly comparing China with the west, namely the US. Its as if you want to try and avert the gaze of people to what is going on in China and talk in a more general airy way about international politicas rather then talk in any deep sense about the totalitarian state China still is.

Oh and there are dozens and dozens of threads about the US, the west and its own warts and misdeeds. It's a national past time for many in the west to look inwardly at its own history in such a persistent negative and critical manner. I doubt the same can be said about the average Chinese. They are probably not allowed to in fairness, or they are brainwashed by the CCP, something that seems to have rubbed off on you.

Put it this way, there are no journalists or political prisoners fleeing the west to seek refuage in China.

markodaly

Deleted User wrote: »

Yup. Never denied such a thing. As you say, it's common knowledge.
.

I look forward to the day that this 'common knowledge' will make it on the front of 'The People's Daily' or headline the daily Chinese evening news. Any day now...

snotboogie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There's two China's since the peoples congress. The regime that Mao created and the one that followed up the limited opening up in 1978. Very different styles of governing and attitude to the treatment of the people. Is the current government much better than the old? Not really...

Jaysus! One ran the country into ground while murdering and killing tens of millions of its own citizens while the subsequent turned the country into the second largest economy on earth and created a western style middle class 100 million strong in less than 50 years. In terms of competence, effectiveness and even morality, post Mao China is so far ahead of its predicesor it can hardly be compared. I genuinely think there is an argument that Mao was the worst leader of all time while Deng Xiaoping was the most effective. Despite his faults, Xi Jinping is a highly competent leader, I can't conceive that anybody would say that the current government isn't better than the utter chaos and devistation of the Mao era.

KyussB

Christ this is a very pedestrian discussion of this news...it's like people don't grok the true reality of things here.

Thought-Crime/Pre-Crime - i.e. locking people up for years merely because their AI algorithm processed random data about people and decied they should go to prison - reports of forced sterilization, where people have received mystery injections and later upon release they find they are unable to have children - Chinese 'relatives'/spies taking the place of imprisoned fathers, sleeping in the same bed as the prisoners wife, who knows she'll be detained if she refuses the visits... - frequent cases of torture/rape/beatings of people who are imprisoned, with the wording of official documents suggesting this is tacitly accepted so long as people are not killed - using threats of detaining family back in China, to force/blackmail migrated family members to return and/or spy on others - bulldozing/destroying entire grave yards because they culturally represent the Uighers.

It's like stuff you'd expect to hear regarding the history of WWII. Fucked up beyond belief.

The political response to this has been very tepid so far as well. If China don't act to end this quickly, then they need to be cut out from economic supply chains across the world, so we aren't indirectly supporting this.

randomspud

KyussB wrote: »

The political response to this has been very tepid so far as well. If China don't act to end this quickly, then they need to be cut out from economic supply chains across the world, so we aren't indirectly supporting this.

This is never going to happen because it would cause the global economy to collapse.


Trump is trying to make moves to level the playing field but "ORANGE MAN BAD!" is getting in the way.

KyussB

randomspud wrote: »

This is never going to happen because it would cause the global economy to collapse.


Trump is trying to make moves to level the playing field but "ORANGE MAN BAD!" is getting in the way.

No it wouldn't, it would cause an economic boon in all the parts of the world economy, that take China's place in the supply chain.

Cutting China out of the economic supply chain is perfectly achievable - it just requires putting in the necessary effort and time.

randomspud

KyussB wrote: »

No it wouldn't, it would cause an economic boon in all the parts of the world economy, that take China's place in the supply chain.

Cutting China out of the economic supply chain is perfectly achievable - it just requires putting in the necessary effort and time.

Yeah, i'm sure that cutting this economic superpower out of the global economy will only have a positive effect.


Jesus ****ing christ.

1874

Deleted User wrote: »

"Forced" (find that amusing since who would volunteer to go to a detention camp)

Detention camps are nothing new in China. They're also considered to be prisons here. Just as you could call prisons in the US or many other countries... guess Guantanamo Bay isn't offensive enough to complain about.

The HK protests are an exercise in stupidity since HK is Chinese territory and they have no choice but to accept being part of China. It's a bit like Texas telling the Federal government that they want to secede and embrace fascism. Agreements were broken by Beijing but then, China has a long history of breaking agreements that don't suit them. So too do a variety of western nations.

As for an evil empire... who are you comparing them to? I'd consider them a few steps up from Soviet Russia. China hasn't been engaged in any wars since Korea, except for repeated minor skirmishes with their neighbors over contested lands going back to British colonial days. They're a totalitarian state but then democracy isn't particularly representative of the people's will either.

As for a Cold war... consider looking at a map of China in Asia, and then place a marker for every US airforce base, missile base, or any base that contains US forces capable of striking the Chinese mainland. The US nearly caused WW3 over missiles in Cuba, but we can't be thinking that the US or others have been aggressive in their behavior towards China.

Don't get me wrong. China has a crap-ton of issues. I've been here for over a decade, and have spoken to many people who have either themselves been on the wrong side with the government or their families have. However, I don't see this evil empire junk.

I do see a serious amount of hypocrisy and double standards though, by western people. They'll ignore the behavior of the US but expect China to meet western standards of behavior. China is an Asian power, following Asian logic, and has no interest in being held accountable for a standard of behavior that western nations often fail to meet themselves. They're a superpower, in all but name, and superpowers do whatever they want.

I dont know what you'd call a war, or a minor skirmish, anywhere they took land or failed to take it after an attempt or lost it in an armed military action with a nation State imo.

China has been in numerous wars since korea,
A few attempts at Taiwan,Tibet, India a few times, Vietnam might have been considered border clashes but the duration, number of deaths and activity suggests its a war to me.


As for the US nearly starting a War over Cuba, I wouldnt be usually standing in to defend the US, but there were Societ nuclear missles not far from their borders, given the tensions between east and West, it seems unlikely they were just going to allow them stay there without dealing with them somehow, I think the Soviets were just as responsible for escalating the situation as the US.
As much as the US has a alarming amount of bases around the world, I dont think they have the capacity to just attack China and not suffer consequneces and not from the bases the US has, its of concern the US is projecting its power into areas of the World from these bases and its concerning as much as China is projecting their own power in their region, if anything the US is acting as a Bulwark against Chinas aggressive bullying like stance, not just to Taiwan, which I cant understand their rhetoric as Taiwan has all the functions of an independent State, China might make a claim but it hardly seems legitimate, anymore than it would be for Taiwan to reclaim the mainland and the threats and attacks against Taiwan seem a bit too much to suggest China is willing to act reasonably, whats worse is how they act towards other militarily and economically weaker neighbours.

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks, I'll take a look. I'm always willing for my perception to be challenged and changed.

At the same time, I don't particularly wish to blind myself to how the US has surrounded China with military bases with the ability to target deep within mainland China. I can appreciate the fear that many Chinese have about American fleets passing near their shores, when any similar action by US shores would be taken as an act of extreme aggression.

Im not convinced, the Chinese are targeting nations around the world and they dont necessarily need or use bases, I dont think the US has in its plan to attack China militarily but maybe to monitor and try contain, and with the kind of threats made to Taiwan, the US in turn will respond to that and increase their naval presence in waters near Taiwan, The USN reach is concerning, but in terms of providing military and moral support to Taiwan and the region, whats to stop China taking over or imposing them selves on nations within the region? would that be right? it seems the US is all that might prevent that

KyussB

randomspud wrote: »

Yeah, i'm sure that cutting this economic superpower out of the global economy will only have a positive effect.


Jesus ****ing christ.

Cutting them out overnight isn't what's being said, here...

In either case, it wouldn't even come to a complete cut-out, as they would buckle under international pressure: The primary reason they are doing this in that area of China, is because it is a critical region of the Belt and Road Initiative - i.e. they have turned that part of China into a police state, for economic reasons - so they aren't going to torch their economic standing, to keep on suppressing that region.

So, they don't need to be fully cut out - they just need the political/economic pressure.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

Touched a nerve. For someone nitpicking on the term Ughyers

Two points. One, there was no mention of the Uyghurs in China before I posted (in the title or thread itself), and secondly, I haven't objected in any shape or form about the term Uyghur, or the treatment of them in China. Why make stuff up? From what I've been told, there's plenty of other things I said previously to object to.

You talk about me not doing myself any favors, and you're right. In this case. I am checking my own opinion in relation to China and the posting I've done recently.

However, I'd suggest that you do the same considering the **** you're making up, to pursue a line of objections of your own creation.

And I am out of the discussion regarding China, so quoting me leads nowhere, since I'm not getting involved until I reason out where I've been going wrong recently.... And no, I don't need you to guide me in this. If I needed that, I'd ask Wibbs, or Raconteuse. Cheers.

silverharp

KyussB wrote: »

Cutting them out overnight isn't what's being said, here...

In either case, it wouldn't even come to a complete cut-out, as they would buckle under international pressure: The primary reason they are doing this in that area of China, is because it is a critical region of the Belt and Road Initiative - i.e. they have turned that part of China into a police state, for economic reasons - so they aren't going to torch their economic standing, to keep on suppressing that region.

So, they don't need to be fully cut out - they just need the political/economic pressure.

i dont see a problem, US and EU companies could do business in India and ideally US ones should be pushing their manufacturing to South America and help out their back yard, erm make South America great again :pac:

biko

China is ****ting itself over EU countries attending an event planned next week by Germany, the United States and Britain on the repression of Uyghur Muslims and other minorities in Xinjiang, according to a note seen by Reuters on Friday.

China urges U.N. states not to attend Xinjiang event next week

Beijing denies the accusations and describes the camps as vocational training centers to combat religious extremism.

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/exclusive-china-urges-un-states-not-attend-xinjiang-event-next-week-2021-05-07/

Timberrrrrrrr

biko wrote: »

China is ****ting itself over EU countries attending an event planned next week by Germany, the United States and Britain on the repression of Uyghur Muslims and other minorities in Xinjiang, according to a note seen by Reuters on Friday.


https://www.reuters.com/world/china/exclusive-china-urges-un-states-not-attend-xinjiang-event-next-week-2021-05-07/

The US have no right to accuse anyone of human rights abuses after what they have done in Guantanamo.

TheValeyard

biko wrote: »

China is ****ting itself over EU countries attending an event planned next week by Germany, the United States and Britain on the repression of Uyghur Muslims and other minorities in Xinjiang, according to a note seen by Reuters on Friday.


https://www.reuters.com/world/china/exclusive-china-urges-un-states-not-attend-xinjiang-event-next-week-2021-05-07/

Good. China has gotten away with so much for so long.

Sadler Peak

The Irish Government does not care one bit about human rights abuses in China. They care about Chinese investment in Ireland ( we should not welcome such investment ) and selling Irish beef to China.

biko

We should refer to China as "Greater Taiwan Area".

Sadler Peak

Simon Coveney avoids Uighur topic with Chinese dignitary Zhang Chunxian

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/simon-coveney-avoids-uighur-topic-with-chinese-dignitary-zhang-chunxian-j26qvv8zc

Sadler Peak

Sadler Peak wrote: »

Simon Coveney avoids Uighur topic with Chinese dignitary Zhang Chunxian

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/simon-coveney-avoids-uighur-topic-with-chinese-dignitary-zhang-chunxian-j26qvv8zc

No surprise there.....

"given the time available specific human rights issues were not raised"

....lol what an excuse, lack of time...

Overheal

John Cena apologizes in fluent Mandarin for referring to Taiwan as a 'country' in a recent promotional interview on a Taiwanese broadcaster - "Taiwan is the first country that can watch [Fast and Furious 9]."

https://twitter.com/JoeXu/status/1396910262494457856?s=20

“I must say now that, very very very importantly, I love and respect China and Chinese people,” Cena said according to multiple translations of his remarks. “I’m very, very sorry about my mistake. I apologize, I’m very sorry. You must understand that I really love, really respect China and the Chinese people. My apologies. See you.”

Just seems utterly bonkers

Thelonious Monk

They can basically do what they want. Countries value business with them more than anything else. They'll keep taking Irish milk powder and we'll keep importing stuff from their dirty factories.

wes

Overheal wrote: »

Just seems utterly bonkers

A lot of films are pre-censored before you even get the screen because of China. You won't be seeing any "Free Tibet" stuff in films anymore, like you use to see in the 90s.

whisky_galore

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No surprise there.....

"given the time available specific human rights issues were not raised"

....lol what an excuse, lack of time...

Get your nose stuck in there, in China's butt cheeks, Simon.

joseywhales

whisky_galore wrote: »

Get your nose stuck in there, in China's butt cheeks, Simon.

If I was in his position, I'd probably do the same. I would be a hypocrite but what can a government do?"Fix homelessness, make it easier for first time buyers, enhanced support through the pandemic, fix the health system, address the economic fallout of brexit, oh and by the way only make deals with third parties that share our values"... it's just not realistic.