Network security Alarms

AnthonyOD1987

Hi All,

Network security rep at the door tonight, with their latest deal.

basically 2 options, both 149eur up front. 3 year contract for monitoring is 30 a month, 2 year contract for monitoring is 35 a month

usually package window sensors, PIR cameras in 2 places.

Their selling point - you own the alarm after the contract is up. You can continue to use the app, and basically self monitor.

Anyone have any experience of this company? any feedback?

KoolKid

You might own the alarm at the end of the contract but you will be tied to Network for any parts replacements etc. And they will charge you nicely if you are no longer in contract.
It's a very simple rule that applies across the industry. If it sounds too good to be true it is...

gygabyte

@KoolKid I was told by one of their sales people that their system can be monitored by other company, after the contract is up of course. Are they lying based on your knowledge of their systems?

AnthonyOD1987

i asked the same question and was told no other company could monitor their system outside the contract. they don't give access to their system to other companies to monitor alarms which made sense.

gygabyte

AnthonyOD1987 wrote: »

i asked the same question and was told no other company could monitor their system outside the contract. they don't give access to their system to other companies to monitor alarms which made sense.

I have in writing that the alarm can be monitored by other company outside contract and they can set the engineer code to whatever I wanted. Need to call out an engineer for that I’m sure it’s not free.

Confused now...

kub

gygabyte wrote: »

@KoolKid I was told by one of their sales people that their system can be monitored by other company, after the contract is up of course. Are they lying based on your knowledge of their systems?

AnthonyOD1987 wrote: »

i asked the same question and was told no other company could monitor their system outside the contract. they don't give access to their system to other companies to monitor alarms which made sense.

Is it written anywhere the details and specification of the control equipment that they are planning on installing ?

gygabyte

kub wrote: »

Is it written anywhere the details and specification of the control equipment that they are planning on installing ?

Not in detail.
I have the list of sensors and that is is a RISCO alarm.

kub

gygabyte wrote: »

Not in detail.
I have the list of sensors and that is is a RISCO alarm.

There is a way in which Risco systems can be locked down to the original installer via software as opposed to an engineer code situation so as a fellow installer mentioned earlier you may have issues getting another company to work on the system or indeed getting it monitored elsewhere.

KoolKid

They are technically correct. Anyone could connect their own dialler and monitor your alarm.
The problem is their equipment and devices are on a closed protocol so an independent installer can not replace any parts.
In this scenario being out of contract or having the engineer code is irrelevant.

gygabyte

KoolKid wrote: »

They are technically correct. Anyone could connect their own dialler and monitor your alarm.
The problem is their equipment and devices are on a closed protocol so an independent installer can not replace any parts.
In this scenario being out of contract or having the engineer code is irrelevant.

I have asked more questions and got this answer:

---
It’s a standard set-up the panel will only talk to its own sensors. It can be maintained by someone else, you completely own the equipment so you’re free to use someone else if you wished.
---

I have this in writing, so where's the catch?

Ladyinthedark

By far Phonewatch are the best

peteb2

Ladyinthedark wrote: »

By far Phonewatch are the best

I presume we don't feed the troll!! :rolleyes:

gygabyte

gygabyte wrote: »

I have asked more questions and got this answer:

---
It’s a standard set-up the panel will only talk to its own sensors. It can be maintained by someone else, you completely own the equipment so you’re free to use someone else if you wished.
---

I have this in writing, so where's the catch?

So the alarm they are selling on that offer is a RISCO Wicomm..

You really own at the end of the contract, but you own a Wiscomm hence the low price....

KoolKid

gygabyte wrote: »

I have asked more questions and got this answer:

---
It’s a standard set-up the panel will only talk to its own sensors. It can be maintained by someone else, you completely own the equipment so you’re free to use someone else if you wished.
---

I have this in writing, so where's the catch?

The catch is in the very clever marketing wording.
The panel will only talk to its own sensors. Risco Wisdom is a standard system but some company's work on a closed protocol. Only them can supply/replace parts for their systems.

Again , if it sounds too good to be true it is.

gygabyte

KoolKid wrote: »

The catch is in the very clever marketing wording.
The panel will only talk to its own sensors. Risco Wisdom is a standard system but some company's work on a closed protocol. Only them can supply/replace parts for their systems.

Again , if it sounds too good to be true it is.

thanks that makes sense.
I have a quote from other company and it is a Risco Agility. about 1300 euros for about 14 sensors.

KoolKid, would you recommend any installers in the Galway area? if so, could you PM me? Thanks a lot

Drifter50

None of us can do that according to Boards rules

Check out PSA.gov.ie and pick up a couple of suppliers in your area

gygabyte

I'm getting some contradicting information from two installers.

1. is saying the communications module is tied to them and that anyway other monitoring stations will provide their own communications module if I choose to be monitored by someone else.

2. is telling me that if I choose to go with someone else, then the only thing to provide is the SIM card.

installer 1. provides their own app which they say is just a clone of RISCO one

installer 2. uses the app RISCO which is configured by them..


fair to assume installer 1. is installing stuff tied to them?
the difference in price of the system itself between them is not huge. the monitoring of option 1 is way cheaper though...

any thoughts?

KoolKid

A clone of the risco app???
I presume they mean the separate cloud connection used by systems which are tied to particular installers. If so you will be tied to them for service and parts also.

gygabyte

KoolKid wrote: »

A clone of the risco app???
I presume they mean the separate cloud connection used by systems which are tied to particular installers. If so you will be tied to them for service and parts also.

to be honest, I'm not sure.
I was assured that wasn't the case, the hardware was not customized and parts could be sourced from any distributor of RISCO products.

it could be that RISCO allows to customise the look and feel of their app and that's fine. However, I was a bit surprised when I was told if I chose to change the monitoring, they would take out the dialer as that would be the only part tied to them.. I thought even the dialler would be always the same no?

KoolKid

It doesn't sound right to be honest. There is too much vagueness. Most manufacturers apps can be customised with installer details and branding. I wouldn't call that a clone.
To be honest you should be able to move panel to whichever provider you want. And use the same dialler etc.
Parts can be sourced??? But can they be enrolled and used on the same system??
Shop around would be my advice.

gygabyte

KoolKid wrote: »

It doesn't sound right to be honest. There is too much vagueness. Most manufacturers apps can be customised with installer details and branding. I wouldn't call that a clone.
To be honest you should be able to move panel to whichever provider you want. And use the same dialler etc.
Parts can be sourced??? But can they be enrolled and used on the same system??
Shop around would be my advice.

this was the response, I got, but they were also at my house doing a survey:

- The Remote app is distributed by Risco but we have our own design within their configuration and will set this up for you.
-it can be maintained and monitored by other installers but the Communications Module provided by us can only be used by us to monitor the system. If you went with another company they would provide their own setup.
- The Parts are only available through Risco Suppliers and Installers and not directly off them.

communications module bit is what gets me and throws me off a bit..

Anyway, I have other quote from other installer.. a bit more expensive but told me if I was ever to change monitoring the only thing to change is the SIM card.

Appreciate any insight. Thanks

KoolKid

Sounds like they are trying to deliberately complicate the issue to confuse you.

gygabyte

KoolKid wrote: »

Sounds like they are trying to deliberately complicate the issue to confuse you.

Yeah, looks like that way for sure

I have a quote by other local installer as follows:

1 x RISCO AGILITY 32 ZONE CONTROL PANEL
1 x RISCO REMOTE KEYPAD
1 x RISCO GSM CARD
2 x RISCO PIR CAMERA
1 x RISCO PIR
14 x RISCO CONTACT/SHOCK SENSORS (windows)
3 x RISCO DOOR CONTACT/SOCK
1 x RISCO LUMIN8 EXTERNAL SIREN
1 x RISCO SMARTPHONE APP

1760 euro

35 euro for:
- monitoring
- maintenance(including call outs, batteries, service)
- breakdown cover of all parts

is this reasonably? I am inclined to go with it, but I have no idea of prices

KoolKid

Not bad if its all in and covers all call outs etc.

gygabyte

KoolKid wrote: »

Not bad if its all in and covers all call outs etc.

the 35 euro includes breakdown cover of all parts including panels. only thing it doesn't cover is if the damage is caused by a electrical surge by storm for instance which is understandable.


fair to assume the 1760 euro for all that hardware is a decent quote?

KoolKid

gygabyte wrote: »

fair to assume the 1760 euro for all that hardware is a decent quote?

It is if its including VAT, installation and set up etc.

gygabyte

KoolKid wrote: »

It is if its including VAT, installation and set up etc.

yep it is, VAT, installation, setting up the app and monitoring etc etc
It is expensive but hopefully it is only this one time

thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it

KoolKid

Anytime. Money upfront is the better option for a system like this. Even if you cancel your monitoring and service down the road you will own a decent system with a good app and no ongoing app charges etc.

gygabyte

KoolKid wrote: »

Anytime. Money upfront is the better option for a system like this. Even if you cancel your monitoring and service down the road you will own a decent system with a good app and no ongoing app charges etc.

I have this system installed.
The shock sensors seem to go off pretty easily with seems to be strong winds from the storms. Is this something normal?
The installer will come by to regulate the sensitivity, but I am starting to wonder if the shock sensors are that reliable?

It only happened when I wasn’t home and of course got called by the monitoring station and my dogs are getting stressed by this. It happened 3 days in a row....

Any thoughts?

gygabyte

Also just found out my dogs’ bark also triggers the shock sensor....... is this common?

altor

gygabyte wrote: »

Also just found out my dogs’ bark also triggers the shock sensor....... is this common?

A dog jumping against a window or door would set off a sensor.
The sensors need to be calibrated if to sensitive.

gygabyte

altor wrote: »

A dog jumping against a window or door would set off a sensor.
The sensors need to be calibrated if to sensitive.

thanks altor. A dog jumping against a door/window I can understand, but in this case it is just barking... the closest shock sensor sometimes it shows color orange (which I read somewhere it indicates over sensitive) and if the dog barks really in high pitch (small terrier dog ) the shock show green and the control panel indicates not ready: just set it off.......

the installer said he will look at it, but I will have to ask for the 17 shocks sensor to be calibrated....
even if just hit a softish knock on the frame it just goes orange... are these risco shock/contact sensor a pain to deal with?

altor

gygabyte wrote: »

thanks altor. A dog jumping against a door/window I can understand, but in this case it is just barking... the closest shock sensor sometimes it shows color orange (which I read somewhere it indicates over sensitive) and if the dog barks really in high pitch (small terrier dog ) the shock show green and the control panel indicates not ready: just set it off.......

the installer said he will look at it, but I will have to ask for the 17 shocks sensor to be calibrated....
even if just hit a softish knock on the frame it just goes orange... are these risco shock/contact sensor a pain to deal with?

Once calibrated no, they use a digital microprocessor to analyze the vibration from the piezo sensor.
This should of been tested on the day of installation to make sure they are not to sensitive.

gygabyte

altor wrote: »

Once calibrated no, they use a digital microprocessor to analyze the vibration from the piezo sensor.
This should of been tested on the day of installation to make sure they are not to sensitive.

Thanks. So there are firmware parameters that can be customised?

He mentioned that the only thing he could do was a some tweak on the sensor itself... but if it has a microprocessor usually there are algorithm parameters that can be adjusted ie, configured on the Risco management tool?

altor

gygabyte wrote: »

Thanks. So there are firmware parameters that can be customised?

He mentioned that the only thing he could do was a some tweak on the sensor itself... but if it has a microprocessor usually there are algorithm parameters that can be adjusted ie, configured on the Risco management tool?

Yes the sensors can be calibrated which should make them less sensitive.

gygabyte

altor wrote: »

Yes the sensors can be calibrated which should make them less sensitive.

He checked on the system remotely and put the sensors that went off in soak mode to see how they behave... saying this is usually how these things are treated... hopefully he is serious in resolving the problem...

altor

gygabyte wrote: »

He checked on the system remotely and put the sensors that went off in soak mode to see how they behave... saying this is usually how these things are treated... hopefully he is serious in resolving the problem...

That should not be done imo.
Soak test means when you set the system if the zone activates it will log the event but not trigger the alarm system.
Did they give a reason for not calling out to calibrate the sensors correctly?

gygabyte

altor wrote: »

That should not be done imo.
Soak test means when you set the system if the zone activates it will log the event but not trigger the alarm system.
Did they give a reason for not calling out to calibrate the sensors correctly?

I am aware of that and he said it would only be for a few days.
He has told me that most likely the false alarms are due to the storm conditions so not sure if he is trying to rule out something else.

altor

gygabyte wrote: »

I am aware of that and he said it would only be for a few days.
He has told me that most likely the false alarms are due to the storm conditions so not sure if he is trying to rule out something else.

Yes, false alarms can be caused by strong wind.
I thought you said the dog was setting it off by barking as well.
Not investigating by means of calling out and testing the sensitivity of the sensors is not great imo.

gygabyte

altor wrote: »

Yes, false alarms can be caused by strong wind.
I thought you said the dog was setting it off by barking as well.
Not investigating by means of calling out and testing the sensitivity of the sensors is not great imo.

The alarm was not set but noticed when my dog barks loud the sensor in the front door goes green and the not ready light on the panel switches off. Am I correct to assume it would have set the alarm off if on? Maybe I’m wrong.

Do you know if the ones that are in soak would still show up on the Risco app if they go off even without setting off the alarm?

So far the installer has been forthcoming on resolving the small issues. There was a connectivity issue with GSM where images were not going up and he put an IP card but my WiFi was not great on that spot. I’m a software engineer and I know my networking pretty well so I could make it work by moving a powerline extender closer but it took some trial and error and time. He spent the time that was required until I was happy.

So I can understand that he might be just doing what he can in between jobs, hope that’s all it is. I have already pointed out that I’m not ok with this going off with storms period.

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zg3409

The "not ready" light may changed by movement sensors as in motion may prevent alarm from setting, it may not be dog barking.

Shock sensors can give false alarms in extreme weather, fireworks, busses or lories driving past, but as said the sensitivity can be reduced. In an ideal world you have an opening sensor on every window and very few shock sensors. Ideally you have new strong windows and the sensor mounted to a stable part of the window.

In terms of deals, many suppliers try lock you into monthly fees, high annual visit costs, don't give you engineer code, lock you into specific brand. Many set panels to recommend a service and some can prevent arming if not serviced by someone with correct engineer code, so your alarm "breaks" after a preset period and says call installer. Some install terribly low quality hardware and don't fit sensors to windows.

Typically I would recommend hkc as they are Irish and we'll known and supported by lots of installers. They do have lock in options for installers and installers can get kick backs on your monitoring fee forever and they can set the amount of mark up they get per month.

It's important you have trust in your alarm reliability and use it as much as possible such as every day and every night. Sometimes an app based CCTV can help with false alarms as you can check if anyone on site with less hassle.

Don't trust sales or installers, they can promise the world even in writing but when it comes to it they may want hundreds to change engineer code or the hardware may require new hardware to switch monitoring.

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