Civil service monitoring time away from desk

LegacyUser

Hello all,

Just wondering if anyone else works under these conditions or if I have any grounds to contact the union?

I work in quite a busy civil service office. Today during a staff meeting we were told that anytime away from our desks is being monitored and recorded on a spreadsheet (this has been going on without us knowing) and that we can access our own spreadsheets (I presume we can only see our own times). It was also said that we cannot take personal calls and if we wish to make one we must log out (we work flexi-time). So basically it is noted each time we leave our desks and the duration we are gone for.

This includes time spent in the bathroom, getting a drink of water, just taking a brief walk to stretch legs, our morning tea break etc. I just don't feel comfortable knowing that I'm being timed each time I sit on the toilet. I can't see how this improves productivity in anyway, if anything it makes us all less motivated and morale is at an all time low. Personally, I make a quick call (less than 3 minutes) to my childminder each day and I feel if anything knowing that my children are happy and well makes me more content at work, rather than worrying about them all day.

I suppose i just wanted to see if this happens in any other civil service offices around the country or if it is something that we can challenge.

beauf

No experience of civil service.

But I've seen it in the private sector sometimes where someone decides to micro manage their staff...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromanagement

...or where people are spending excessive amounts of time away from their assigned work. But that's better managed by tracking productivity in my opinion.

Id say I only see it where people are failing to track productivity and are quite poor at project management.

beauf

That said if you are in a unionised environment it's always worth having a chat with them.

Samuel T. Cogley

Definitely get on to the union. That sort of monitoring is ridiculous and not standard in the civil service. Its lazy management at best. If your manager cant properly set targets and monitor compliance, they're the ones that need micro managing.

_Brian

I’ve seen similar tried before.

Micromanaging always ruins productivity and any sense of job satisfaction.

It’s extremely weak old school management.

Mrs OBumble

_Brian wrote: »

It’s extremely weak old school management.

Totally agree with this.

And it might be a manager being petty.

But it is worth asking yourself if there is someone who is taking the p*as, and whether a bit of peer pressure applied to them might convince management to back off.


Also, being managed to the minute is pretty common, but it's based on time logged into the system and call statistics, rather than sitting vs standing etc.

AndrewJRenko

civvyboots wrote: »

Hello all,

I work in quite a busy civil service office. Today during a staff meeting we were told that anytime away from our desks is being monitored and recorded on a spreadsheet (this has been going on without us knowing) and that we can access our own spreadsheets (I presume we can only see our own times).

Absolutely contact your union. If they have been recording data about you, without informing you beforehand about the data collection, they are breaching Data Protection laws and GDPR. Check to see if you can the spreadsheets of your colleagues, for a little extra spice.


This sounds like overreach by a local manager who really doesn't know what they are doing.

There is also a big question about how they could accurately do what they say they are doing. Unless they have somebody who's full-time job is to literally sit there and record each staff movement in or out, they're not recording it accurately. Does this person have full visibility across the entire office for the entire time? Who covers for this person when THEY go to the loo or to get a glass of water?

Because if they're not recording each movement, then the data isn't accurate. They could have logged you moving away from your desk, and missed your return to your desk - so your working time is recorded inaccurately as an absence.


You could also contact the national HR office for the Dept or organisation and see if they know and support what's happening.

SeaFields

Sounds like very incompetent management. The manager doing it obviously has little to be doing if they can dedicate that much time to the exercise.

You say it was mentioned at a staff meeting? Did anyone question it? And what was the response if so?

Strumms

Completely incompetent and downright poxy bad management. It actually angers me knowing out there, there is a manager being firstly paid money, public money to come up with this shît and secondly is sitting there with a stopwatch monitoring and noting people’s times.... should be fired out of a fûcking cannon, that’s the most productive thing that could happen to him..

Why is there a morning tea break? I hope you are clocking out for that?

Otherwise, you are getting paid twice for doing no work - during a break you're not legally entitled to - if you are building up flexitime and not clocking out.

stargazer 68

salonfire wrote: »

Why is there a morning tea break? I hope you are clocking out for that?

Otherwise, you are getting paid twice for doing no work - during a break you're not legally entitled to - if you are building up flexitime and not clocking out.

We get a morning break and dont have to clock out. Only clock out for lunch.

AulWan

I am over 30 years in the Civil Service and management level, and this is completely excessive monitoring.

Contact the Union immediately.

In the meantime, until this is sorted out...

Try to avoid core infringements. Be on time. Be vigiliant in clocking in/out correctly at lunchtime. Keep morning teabreak to the time allowed. Keep mobile phone on silent, and make/return any personal calls while clocked out at lunchtime.

If you need to go to the bathroom, go to the bathroom. You don't need permission for this, you're not in school.

the culture of deference

You are supposed to get up and walk once an hour or health reasons

Mad stuff.

The Civil Service are very quick to count up the minutes and clock watching when it comes to taking flexi time off work - potentially an 16 days leave per year.

When it goes the other way though, it's run to the Union.

antimatterx

I work in software. If this happened in my company, people would walk.

Samuel T. Cogley

salonfire wrote: »

Mad stuff.

The Civil Service are very quick to count up the minutes and clock watching when it comes to taking flexi time off work - potentially an 16 days leave per year.

When it goes the other way though, it's run to the Union.

Productivity is measured by the work being done, not by the minutes spent at the desk. Flexitime is earned by being their beyond what is rostered for the day and many of us make it up by staying back to not leave work for the next day.

Collie D

salonfire wrote: »

Mad stuff.

The Civil Service are very quick to count up the minutes and clock watching when it comes to taking flexi time off work - potentially an 16 days leave per year.

When it goes the other way though, it's run to the Union.

Your civil service rant is nullified by the fact this **** wouldn’t be tolerated in the private sector either.

AndrewJRenko

salonfire wrote: »

Mad stuff.

The Civil Service are very quick to count up the minutes and clock watching when it comes to taking flexi time off work - potentially an 16 days leave per year.

When it goes the other way though, it's run to the Union.

You know how flexi-time works, right? You work extra hours one day, so you can work fewer hours or no hours on another day. There is no loss of hours to the employer. The hours are just done on different days.


This particular case isn't about hours. It is about bad management - poor and probably illegal management practices.

AulWan

civvyboots wrote: »

It was also said that we cannot take personal calls and if we wish to make one we must log out (we work flexi-time).

Also please DO NOT clock out specifically to make / take a call as if its within core hours, you will incur a core infringement.

That's not to say you should spend excessive amounts of time on personal calls, but if you need to make or take a call, then do so and keep it to the minimum.

What is happening here is absolutely not standard across civil service offices.

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Productivity is measured by the work being done, not by the minutes spent at the desk. Flexitime is earned by being their beyond what is rostered for the day and many of us make it up by staying back to not leave work for the next day.

I get that, but to take time off, productivity is not considered only hours and minutes.

Well done that manager, if people are using time to take additional days off, he has every right to see how much effort is going into that time.

It would not be acceptable in other work places, but other work places do not give flexi days off.

Samuel T. Cogley

All this said though do you really need to take a call daily about the kids? Surely a no news is good news approach could be taken.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You know how flexi-time works, right? You work extra hours one day, so you can work fewer hours or no hours on another day. There is no loss of hours to the employer. The hours are just done on different days.


This particular case isn't about hours. It is about bad management - poor and probably illegal management practices.

Taking tea breaks and making personal calls is not working.

Samuel T. Cogley

salonfire wrote: »

I get that, but to take time off, productivity is not considered only hours and minutes.

Well done that manager, if people are using time to take additional days off, he has every right to see how much effort is going into that time.

It would not be acceptable in other work places, but other work places do not give flexi days off.

Flexitime is a privilege and not a right in the Civil Service and many people don't have access to it. Where work isn't being done it can be removed. Micro managing desk time isn't managing effort it's being lazy and condescending.

Other work places would have to pay overtime where an employee stays back and many would give TOIL rather than overtime. As for the Civil Service setting a standard of excellence in flexibility and family friendly policies, that's simply to be expected - lead by example. The grades that get Flexi are not exactly blessed in the remuneration department in the main.

Samuel T. Cogley

salonfire wrote: »

Taking tea breaks and making personal calls is not working.

The tea break, or 15 minute paid break, is required under the Organisation of Working Time Act.

AulWan

salonfire wrote: »

I get that, but to take time off, productivity is not considered only hours and minutes.

Well done that manager, if people are using time to take additional days off, he has every right to see how much effort is going into that time.

It would not be acceptable in other work places, but other work places do not give flexi days off.

I would be interesting to monitor levels of work related stress and related sick leave taken by the staff being managed by this person. I bet its way above average.

Managing performance does not mean treating adults like children, or recording how long they take to go to the toilet.

AndrewJRenko

salonfire wrote: »

I get that, but to take time off, productivity is not considered only hours and minutes.

Well done that manager, if people are using time to take additional days off, he has every right to see how much effort is going into that time.

It would not be acceptable in other work places, but other work places do not give flexi days off.

It's nothing to do with flexitime, which does also existing in large private employers, btw. It's nothing to do with taking additional days.


The manager indeed has a duty to ensure that staff at work are actually working, regardless of whether they are earning flexitime or not. Measuring the amount of time people spend in the toilet is not a good management practice. Even Dunnes have moved on from that afaik.

salonfire wrote: »

Taking tea breaks and making personal calls is not working.

Mandatory breaks are required by law. Most employers, public and private, have a written policy allowing reasonable personal phone calls.

Strumms

You need to fight back against people like this.

Make sure you are taking every and all breaks, on time to the second.

Get to the office 10 minutes early, just be sitting there fûcking around on your phone, jacket on, relaxed and happy ...until your shift is due to start. This will wind him up to fûck. You ARE in the work environment but relaxing... this won’t sit comfortably with his outlook of wanting to control but he can’t say a word..

Avoid all unnecessary conversations with him...he says.. “nice day out there”, ‘yeah ?’ is your answer, without eye contact or further engagement. Polite of course.... make things difficult for him, don’t take it.

Chaos Black

2 things:

Regarding the monitoring that is odd - haven’t heard of it in the CS before. I doubt the manager is doing it by stopwatch though- you could just have something count the time computers/IM are inactive/away. Unless it is all desk based work I don’t see what value it is. I’d show up as away a lot but I’m attending meetings and other work related things. If I was sitting at my desk all day long something is probably wrong! Also when at my desk I tend to work hard for periods of close to an hour and then I will get away from the computer to get water/coffee/toilet break as attention spans work that way..

Tea breaks are a CS thing - technically 15 mins in the morning. A lot of private sector around where I work appear to do the same even if it is not built into their contracts. I don’t tend to take too many and when I do it is probably close to half an hour (so technically breaking the rules..). If someone was monitoring it I’d point out that I don’t take them regularly and that they should concern themselves with my output.

Although some civil servants absolutely do take the piss with their tea breaks and not doing work when they should be. Underperformance should be dealt with individually but sometimes that does not happen which is a criticism of the CS.

This is happening because someone is taking the piss. Happened at my college. The rules were easy going until someone started to abuse them. Eight smoke breaks, four tea breaks and always on the phone with her sisters.

So now no one gets anything

Collie D

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is happening because someone is taking the piss. Happened at my college. The rules were easy going until someone started to abuse them. Eight smoke breaks, four tea breaks and always on the phone with her sisters.

So now no one gets anything

It’s up to management to speak to her and not to start timing people going for a piss because of her.

AulWan

Deleted User wrote: »

This is happening because someone is taking the piss.

I would agree with this.

Someone has been taking advantage, but instead of the supervisor identifying them and managing that person's performance (or there may be more then one), they have decided to take this way of handling the situation for some bizarre reason.

Its very poor management skills, and long-term, won't work.

Collie D

salonfire wrote: »

I get that, but to take time off, productivity is not considered only hours and minutes.

Well done that manager, if people are using time to take additional days off, he has every right to see how much effort is going into that time.

It would not be acceptable in other work places, but other work places do not give flexi days off.

I get flexi days and I don’t get time docked for leaving my desk - sure, chunks of my day are spent away from it anyway.

If I thought my toilet breaks or time getting a drink of water was being recorded you can bet I’ll be asking questions.

I’m neither public service or in a union.

Strumms

Deleted User wrote: »

This is happening because someone is taking the piss. Happened at my college. The rules were easy going until someone started to abuse them. Eight smoke breaks, four tea breaks and always on the phone with her sisters.

So now no one gets anything

Very possibly, but instead of engaging with the problem and the person directly and individually... everyone now suffers. It’s the ultimate lazy management ...

If I am a manager and an individual has a habit of turning up late..or ripping the piss with breaks... I’ll invite them for a meeting, ask why they are turning up late. Point out the recorded instances. Reminding them it’s their responsibility to ensure that they are on time for each shift but if there is some unavoidable issue on the way such as a crash they need to call me...if no improvement in their timekeeping is happening there will be formal disciplinary action.

What I’m not going to do is wait for a team meeting and come out with... “ it’s been observed that several members of this team are not turning up for their shifts on time”...

That’s cowardly and lazy..

antimatterx

Where I work no one cares how many tea breaks/smoke breaks you take if you're late/early. It's up to you to get your assigned work done, once you do, you can do what you want.

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

The tea break, or 15 minute paid break, is required under the Organisation of Working Time Act.

That's not correct.

Only after 4.5 hours is a break required, and that's lunch.

There is no basis for the morning break.
Probably far longer than 15 mins taken as well that adds up nicely towards a day's flexitime.

Multiply this piss taking across the civil service and it's costing a fortune.

the14thwarrior

go to union and HR.
this is not standard.
in my work place (public job) the old manager started to make everyone account for every 15 min. of their work day. now we have fancy stats to calucalate prodactivity. but the old way continues to exist, and i hate it. at the time i accepted it as it was put forward as a "trial". I know its not the same as yours but the result is....
poor positive management (you'll find the civil service will have a policy around stress and people management)
negative management
not allowing people to do their job with their own skills and in their own manner (as long as people do their job)
increased stress and anxiety (i have a bowel disorder......)
I work faster than my colleagues so my productivity is not an issue
i need to stretch my legs, back....

now, in the current times, i actually have a physical problem, offered disability and choose not to take it.. modifications easy to put in........ but the latest new manager has a bit of problem with it..... so i laid down the rules early enough and had to fight but managed to keep unions out of it.

trust me nip this in the bud before the manager gets it into his head that this is a good thing.

he started something similar and i put my foot down
it makes his job easier.......
he needs to manage the issue, not tar everyone with the same brush.
he gets paid to manage the bad workers

the14thwarrior

salonfire wrote: »

That's not correct.

Only after 4.5 hours is a break required, and that's lunch.

There is no basis for the morning break.
Probably far longer than 15 mins taken as well that adds up nicely towards a day's flexitime.

Multiply this piss taking across the civil service and it's costing a fortune.

such a stupid statement if you think having a tea break for 15 minute across a full working day is "taking the piss". and then say its costing the country a fortune. that people should stop working and sit and chat and drink tea/coffee/juice, have a scone, bit of fruit, chocolate, and relax. and go back to work. in the long run it gives people a bit of a rest, reduce stress, etc. gas.

I'd love to shadow you in your work and see you working non stop for 8 hours with just a half hour break. bet it doesn't happen.

AulWan

salonfire wrote: »

That's not correct.

Only after 4.5 hours is a break required, and that's lunch.

There is no basis for the morning break.
Probably far longer than 15 mins taken as well that adds up nicely towards a day's flexitime.

Multiply this piss taking across the civil service and it's costing a fortune.

OMFG would you seriously get a life.

KaneToad

the14thwarrior wrote: »

such a stupid statement if you think having a tea break for 15 minute across a full working day is "taking the piss". and then say its costing the country a fortune. that people should stop working and sit and chat and drink tea/coffee/juice, have a scone, bit of fruit, chocolate, and relax. and go back to work. in the long run it gives people a bit of a rest, reduce stress, etc. gas.

I'd love to shadow you in your work and see you working non stop for 8 hours with just a half hour break. bet it doesn't happen.

But...but...but...My taxes pay your salary!!

Samuel T. Cogley

salonfire wrote: »

That's not correct.

Only after 4.5 hours is a break required, and that's lunch.

There is no basis for the morning break.
Probably far longer than 15 mins taken as well that adds up nicely towards a day's flexitime.

Multiply this piss taking across the civil service and it's costing a fortune.

That's not correct. The 15 minute paid break is required as the Civil service lunch break is unpaid.

silent_spark

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

That's not correct. The 15 minute paid break is required as the Civil service lunch break is unpaid.

It doesn’t make a difference whether the lunch break is paid or not. While it might be a civil service policy to offer a paid morning break, it’s nothing to do with the working time directive - there’s no requirement to pay for employee rest breaks.

the14thwarrior

KaneToad wrote: »

But...but...but...My taxes pay your salary!!

your taxes pay my salary.
OMFG.

i hope I don't choke on my tea break tomorrow morning.
I'll try not to feel guilty!!!!

pablo128

silent_spark wrote: »

It doesn’t make a difference whether the lunch break is paid or not. While it might be a civil service policy to offer a paid morning break, it’s nothing to do with the working time directive - there’s no requirement to pay for employee rest breaks.

I'm in the private sector. 15 minute break morning and afternoon is paid for. 1 hour lunch break is unpaid.

And it's written in our contracts.

angel eyes 2012

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

That's not correct. The 15 minute paid break is required as the Civil service lunch break is unpaid.

Realistically, the tea break is 30 minutes and I've seen it stretched to 45 minutes by some.

pablo128

pablo128 wrote: »

I'm in the private sector. 15 minute break morning and afternoon is paid for. 1 hour lunch break is unpaid.

And it's written in our contracts.

You are not using it to count towards another day off though.

Samuel T. Cogley

pablo128 wrote: »

I'm in the private sector. 15 minute break morning and afternoon is paid for. 1 hour lunch break is unpaid.

And it's written in our contracts.

In fairness he's correct it's not a requirement, although I've never worked anywhere it wasn't paid and separate to the lunch break and that's from years in retail and call centres.

angel eyes 2012

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Realistically, the tea break is 30 minutes and I've seen it stretched to 45 minutes by some.

Of course it does. No-one boils a kettle, makes tea, sit and chat, washes up a bit and return to their desk all within 15 mins.

pablo128

salonfire wrote: »

Of course it does. No-one boils a kettle, makes tea, sit and chat, washes up a bit and return to their desk all within 15 mins.

A burko and a dishwasher takes care of that. And yes I can manage all of the above plus a cigarette and be back on the floor in 15 minutes.

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

In fairness he's correct it's not a requirement, although I've never worked anywhere it wasn't paid and separate to the lunch break and that's from years in retail and call centres.

Yes, you're right.

Did it count up towards get another day off in your years in retail and call centres? Of course, it didn't.

Chaos Black

If it helps ease the chip off of that shoulder - the CS is recruiting constantly at the moment. As a post 2013 entrant you can get the tea break and maybe flexitime.

You probably would get paid more in a equivalent private sector job if you’re any use though so there is that..

shesty

I am constantly away from my desk at work....the nature of our company and my job requires a lot of interaction between departments in different areas of the building, I would regularly be dropping to other desks to discuss work and vice versa.I've worked in a few public sector offices though, and this is micromanagement to a ridiculous degree.Somebody is ridiculously wasting time and money if they are actually monitoring staff movements to this degree.