Porsche Taycan 4s now £80k sterling only 9k VRT

the culture of deference

Porsche has made its new Taycan EV much more attainable with the addition of a new 4S.

80k sterling and Irish VRT of 7% from January 1st.

4S still puts out 523bhp during overboost in standard form.

79.2kWh battery for a WLTP certified range of 252 miles.

0-62mph time is 4.0 sec.

4S’s technical make-up is the same as pricier Taycans, with two electric motors across both axles for four-wheel drive and a two-speed transmission for acceleration. However, the rear motor is 80mm shorter than it is in the Turbo and Turbo S, while it also receives smaller brakes, down to 360mm and six pistons on the front and 358mm and four pistons at the rear.

Exterior styling changes include smaller 19in wheels, red painted calipers and a revised bodykit including a different front apron, side sills and rear diffuser. Dynamic LED lights remain standard fitment. Part-leather is standard, but Porsche also offers a leather-free cabin with recycled materials.

As with other Taycans, it comes with three years of access to Ionity’s rapid chargers and the Porsche Charging Service. Customers also receive a driving experience at the brand’s Silverstone Experience Centre.

Lumen

the culture of deference wrote: »

80k sterling and Irish VRT of 7% from January 1st.

Porsche website says €116k.
Cheapest Panamera is €132k.

So I guess it's cheap for a four door Porsche, in the frame of normal crazy Irish prices.

the culture of deference

I was in contact with Porsche Dublin about it and they were not aware of the new VRT rates.


It should be 80k stg = approx 93k euro + 4 % VAT + somewhere between 7 to 9k VRT

Dont be at yourself

the culture of deference wrote: »

80k sterling and Irish VRT of 7% from January 1st.

Where's that VRT rate coming from?

September1

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

Where's that VRT rate coming from?

There was some proposals in summer for new VRT system, which would put EVs into 7% rate.

bf

Yikes 252 miles WLTP, that’s not going to be much real world range

unkel

bf wrote: »

Yikes 252 miles WLTP, that’s not going to be much real world range

WLTP is a pretty good test for real world range (but not taking account much motorway driving at 120km/h)

digiman

September1 wrote: »

There was some proposals in summer for new VRT system, which would put EVs into 7% rate.

I don't believe this ever happened though? The proposal I believe was to reduce VRT on electric vehicles from 14-7% and remove the 5k grant.

ELM327

That 0-60 time is similar to my 2016 S90D, with similar range too.
Porsche can't come close to new Tesla specs if they can't even beat a ~4 year old one

It will be interesting to see what the real life energy consumption is at high speeds. Being a German and Porsche I would very much think it will have a good range at high speeds compared to others.

Lumen

samih wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what the real life energy consumption is at high speeds. Being a German and Porsche I would very much think it will have a good range at high speeds compared to others.

The Audi e-tron has consumption of over 300Wh/km at 120kph, according to testing by NextMove and Bjørn Nyland, compared to under 230Wh/km at the same speed for the Model X Long Range Raven.

Ubbquittious

Ah fcuk it I'll take 2 of them

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

The Audi e-tron has consumption of over 300Wh/km at 120kph, according to testing by NextMove and Bjørn Nyland, compared to under 230Wh/km at the same speed for the Model X Long Range Raven.

Yea, but this is a very aerodynamic looking Porsche, a maker of high speed machines, not a brick. And it has a dual speed gearbox probably to increase the motor efficiency at high speeds.

Ubbquittious

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Ah fcuk it I'll take 2 of them

Best to order one Taycan and one Tesla for variety. That's my Euromillions plan. You can get really cool colour combinations on the Porsche and the wheels matched on the body colour.

Mike9832

samih wrote: »

Best to order one Taycan and one Tesla for variety. That's my Euromillions plan. You can get really cool colour combinations on the Porsche and the wheels matched on the body colour.

I'd have a red Taycan Turbo S and black Model X as my workhorse

ELM327

samih wrote: »

Yea, but this is a very aerodynamic looking Porsche, a maker of high speed machines, not a brick. And it has a dual speed gearbox probably to increase the motor efficiency at high speeds.

the second speed is for high speed (above 150) acceleration.
This is the only area where the Taycan is better than a Tesla.

Lumen

ELM327 wrote: »

the second speed is for high speed (above 150) acceleration.
This is the only area where the Taycan is better than a Tesla.

"Better" is a strong word.

From what I've read it's more that gear 1 is for low speeds (under 100kph) under full throttle. Gear 2 is the default.

I guess this means if you're driving around normally at say 70kph, you'll be in gear 2 regardless of driving mode, and if you floor the throttle (and are NOT in Range Plus mode) the car will downshift to gear 1, accelerate to about 100kph and then shift back up again.

So Porsche have sort of re-invented the downshift you get in an ICE slushbox.

But it does raise the question of whether Tesla's high speed acceleration has been sacrificed by choose gearing optimised for drag racing.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

the second speed is for high speed (above 150) acceleration.

Lumen wrote: »

From what I've read it's more that gear 1 is for low speeds (under 100kph) under full throttle. Gear 2 is the default.

Does the 2nd gear also mean that it would have a clutch (automatic, not the pedal variety of course)?

Lumen

KCross wrote: »

Does the 2nd gear also mean that it would have a clutch (automatic, not the pedal variety of course)?

Yes. From some random page:

"Powered by a 93.4-kilowatt-hour battery that motivates two synchronous electric motors (one up front, the other driving a two-speed multi-plate clutch gearbox at the rear)"

I understand why Porsche would do this. They have immense experience making reliable clutched drivetrains, what's the harm in sticking one in a Taycan if it makes the product "better".

Of course if Tesla did it they'd get slagged for overcomplicating the drivetrain.

Relatedly, when a Taycan wants to drive efficiently it just uses the front motor, the same (I think) as a Raven Model S or X.

KCross

It does complicate the drivetrain alright and just introduces a failure/service point. I guess it doesnt matter for a €100k performance car.... complicated is expected!

ELM327

TBH I'm happy with my 1 speed 4s 0-60 with the sacrifice of speed above 100-150, you can't drive that speed in Ireland anyway

Will be interesting to see how the Taycan compares to S at high speeds when the real life data is available. In theory the 800V system should reduce heat losses at high load also.

ELM327

It would, above 100-150 the Taycan will come into its own
The issue is, it has less range than the Model S

Ubbquittious

samih wrote: »

Best to order one Taycan and one Tesla for variety. That's my Euromillions plan. You can get really cool colour combinations on the Porsche and the wheels matched on the body colour.

Not a fan of Tesla. Don't want Elon spying on me and if I win the Euro millions i'll be gathering a collection of cars with noisy V8 petrol engines. I'll leave the piss acting around with batteries to some poor auld divil trying to save a few bob on fuel.

the culture of deference

digiman wrote: »

I don't believe this ever happened though? The proposal I believe was to reduce VRT on electric vehicles from 14-7% and remove the 5k grant.

Yes you are correct.

Car in Euro with Irish VAT paid is about €95,000

The VRT on the car should be about €8,000 Euro(13,300-5,000), as opposed to €7,000 to 8,000 euro had the gov changed to 7% VRT

ELM327 wrote: »

That 0-60 time is similar to my 2016 S90D, with similar range too.
Porsche can't come close to new Tesla specs if they can't even beat a ~4 year old one

The top of the range model has

560kw (751bhp)

162mph top speed

Battery 93.4 kilowatt-hours.

Speed 0-60 MPH 2.6 Seconds

287 mile range (wltp)

Porsche say

Porsche wants to ram home is the repeatability of its launch control function – the car has been engineered to handle several hard launches without the risk of damaging componentry. We suspect that’s a dig at Tesla’s process of having to warm up the car first then warn the driver that launching it may affect future performance.

Lumen

the culture of deference wrote: »

Porsche say

Porsche wants to ram home is the repeatability of its launch control function – the car has been engineered to handle several hard launches without the risk of damaging componentry. We suspect that’s a dig at Tesla’s process of having to warm up the car first then warn the driver that launching it may affect future performance.

The Model S is a 2012 car. Ludicrous mode was introduced four and a half years ago. Porsche haven't shipped a single car yet.

Nobody has range tested it yet, or tested the interior noise levels, or track tested it alongside any Tesla or away from Porsche nannies. I don't think there is even an official price yet.

The Taycan looks decent, but beating a seven year old car with a car that you can't actually buy yet is not that impressive. Presumably that's why they picked it, rather than the Model 3. You might say that the Model 3 isn't a competitor, but neither is the Model S, which is a large high-riding saloon car, not the "sports car" that Porsche claim the Taycan is.

I'm not enough of a Tesla loon to be be offering the non-existent Roadster as a competitor, but if we're allowing time machines for comparison purposes then the <2 year difference in availability dates between the Taycan and Roadster make them more comparable than the >7 year difference between the Model S and Taycan.

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

beating a seven year old car with a car that you can't actually buy yet is not that impressive.

It's the first car that can probably outperform the Tesla. Which in its own right is impressive enough

Agree with your sentiment though that it's pretty ridiculous it has taken 7 years...

Ubbquittious

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Not a fan of Tesla. Don't want Elon spying on me and if I win the Euro millions i'll be gathering a collection of cars with noisy V8 petrol engines. I'll leave the piss acting around with batteries to some poor auld divil trying to save a few bob on fuel.

It's just that the V8 just feels agricultural for daily driving. But yeah with unlimited budget it would make sense to add one proper GT for long trips beyond the range of the Model X. For daily driving petrol car would just plain suck with mandatory trips to the filling station once you've gotten used driving an EV.

ELM327

the culture of deference wrote: »

Yes you are correct.

Car in Euro with Irish VAT paid is about €95,000

The VRT on the car should be about €8,000 Euro(13,300-5,000), as opposed to €7,000 to 8,000 euro had the gov changed to 7% VRT



The top of the range model has

560kw (751bhp)

162mph top speed

Battery 93.4 kilowatt-hours.

Speed 0-60 MPH 2.6 Seconds

287 mile range (wltp)

Porsche say

Porsche wants to ram home is the repeatability of its launch control function – the car has been engineered to handle several hard launches without the risk of damaging componentry. We suspect that’s a dig at Tesla’s process of having to warm up the car first then warn the driver that launching it may affect future performance.

So ... same speed as model S performance ... with less battery size? And less range? And no SC netwrk?


Where do I sign?

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

So ... same speed as model S performance ... with less battery size? And less range? And no SC netwrk?

Similar speed, range, battery and the Ionity network which is a lot faster for the Taycan than Tesla Model S is on a supercharger

I've no doubt that the Taycan would be a superior car to drive too. And Above say 100km/h, the Tesla will be left for dust (because of the additional gear in the Taycan), But I'm sure this will be proven soon in a direct test between them. Top Gear? Chris Harris?

So maybe as a Model S owner, you're invested and thus not easily convinced, but I'd take the Taycan over it any day (if I had that sort of money)

pdpmur

KCross wrote: »

Does the 2nd gear also mean that it would have a clutch (automatic, not the pedal variety of course)?

The second gear also allows the electric motor to operate closer to the peak of its efficiency (e.g. https://www.brusa.biz/fileadmin/template/Support-Center/Datenbl%C3%A4tter/BRUSA_DB_EN_HSM1.pdf). The 800V system also helps hugely at high power outputs.

Porsche would get crucified by its german customers if the Taycan could not operate all day long at Autobahn de-restricted speeds.

ELM327

pdpmur wrote: »

The second gear also allows the electric motor to operate closer to the peak of its efficiency (e.g. https://www.brusa.biz/fileadmin/template/Support-Center/Datenbl%C3%A4tter/BRUSA_DB_EN_HSM1.pdf). The 800V system also helps hugely at high power outputs.

Porsche would get crucified by its german customers if the Taycan could not operate all day long at Autobahn de-restricted speeds.

Once there's an ample supply of 350kW chargers!
It has less range than the equivalent model S

Lumen

At full power but without overboost the Taycan 4S battery will last 16 minutes.

ELM327

That's pathetic.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

That's pathetic.

That's EVs. There simply is only a fraction of the energy on board compared to ICE cars.

In the Porsche it's an extreme case as it has a very high top speed. But even a brand new Leaf 40 doing its top speed of just 144km/h, you'd be running out in under and hour.

It does 4 minutes better than Bugatti Veyron so. There's progress for you :-)

Lumen

Also, it may well be that top speed doesn't equate to max power.

the culture of deference

Lumen wrote: »

At full power but without overboost the Taycan 4S battery will last 16 minutes.

The tesla S 100d is not much better.

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

Also, it may well be that top speed doesn't equate to max power.

That was my first thought. Where did you get your data from? Nearly all EVs that I know of have a speed limiter which by definition means the car is not using maximum power at its top speed.

Lumen

From claimed power outputs and battery capacity.

To be clear, I want criticising the car, I was just pointing out the irrelevance of sustained super high speed.

This stuff matters on track, but is the Taycan a good track car? Nobody knows.

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

That's EVs. There simply is only a fraction of the energy on board compared to ICE cars.

In the Porsche it's an extreme case as it has a very high top speed. But even a brand new Leaf 40 doing its top speed of just 144km/h, you'd be running out in under and hour.

Closer to 30 mins

sk8board

ELM327 wrote: »

That 0-60 time is similar to my 2016 S90D, with similar range too.
Porsche can't come close to new Tesla specs if they can't even beat a ~4 year old one

I’m sure it’s been debated to death, but range aside, Porsche very publicly wanted to avoid the typical EV one-trick straight-line speed, and wanted a drivers car. The battery doesn’t need the pampering of tesla ludacris too, it’s punch and go, as often as you want.

back OT, if this is €115k, would you pick this ahead of spending €165k on a 911 carrera S?

unkel

sk8board wrote: »

if this is €115k, would you pick this ahead of spending €165k on a 911 carrera S?

I sure would.

Mike9832 wrote: »

Closer to 30 mins

Nah, you're assuming the car is running full power (or close to it) when at top speed, which isn't the case. I think it is a reasonable ball park guess that a Leaf 40 (37kWh available) will do around 37kWh/100km at the top speed of 144km/h, in other words battery from full to empty in one hour.

ELM327

sk8board wrote: »

I’m sure it’s been debated to death, but range aside, Porsche very publicly wanted to avoid the typical EV one-trick straight-line speed, and wanted a drivers car. The battery doesn’t need the pampering of tesla ludacris too, it’s punch and go, as often as you want.

back OT, if this is €115k, would you pick this ahead of spending €165k on a 911 carrera S?

I wouldnt buy either.
Quite frankly anyone spending that amount of change on an EV that isnt a Tesla needs their head examined.

Mr Q

ELM327 wrote: »

I wouldnt buy either.
Quite frankly anyone spending that amount of change on an EV that isnt a Tesla needs their head examined.

So its alright to spend 115k on a new Tesla but not a new Porsche? That makes no sense.

Without ever getting in a Taycan we both know the interior build quality will be miles ahead of a Tesla. The range is the only real let down but won't concern a lot of owners. Also the options seem very expensive even if expected.

I like Teslas but your views are a little biased on the matter.

ELM327

Well spending that much with less range and no SC network is madness IMO

Mr Q

ELM327 wrote: »

Well spending that much with less range and no SC network is madness IMO

I agree the range is disappointing. But the SC network currently is not a big advantage in Ireland, just not enough of them built. Not yet anyway.

I think there will be a lot of people who pick the Porsche over the Tesla.

ELM327

Mr Q wrote: »

I agree the range is disappointing. But the SC network currently is not a big advantage in Ireland, just not enough of them built. Not yet anyway.

I think there will be a lot of people who pick the Porsche over the Tesla.

it is a big advantage in Ireland. Combine it with Ionity and all major routes are covered.
In the continent it is even more so. Each to their own and all that but my next car won't be a porsche either (or a non tesla for that matter)

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

I sure would.



Nah, you're assuming the car is running full power (or close to it) when at top speed, which isn't the case. I think it is a reasonable ball park guess that a Leaf 40 (37kWh available) will do around 37kWh/100km at the top speed of 144km/h, in other words battery from full to empty in one hour.

In the desert maybe

Leaf has about 10% overread?

144km/h gps speed is about 160km/h on the dash?

Tough ask imo

ELM327

All I know is I emptied the battery of my L24 in about 20 minutes at max speed 161 indicated

Mike9832

ELM327 wrote: »

All I know is I emptied the battery of my L24 in about 20 minutes at max speed 161 indicated

Which would be correct

Leaf40 is't getting much more than 30 minutes then

Leaf62 might make the hour, I wouldn't be confident