Accidents on the M50 - Why No Proper Policing?

JupiterKid

Another day, another accident on the M50. It's getting beyond a joke at this stage. There seems to be an accident/collision on the M50 nearly every single day now and it really messes up the already very heavy traffic...

Why isn't the M50 patrolled by the Gardai better? These accidents seem to take forever to be cleared and if the road was properly policed, perhaps people would take more care and these near daily accidents would be avoided.

Thoughts?

bucketybuck

Not intended as a direct response to the OP, but I remember reading a long time ago that police are directed not to be visible on certain busy roads at rush hour because they actually make the traffic worse.

Which makes sense. Did you ever see those "wave" models of traffic flow, where one guy hitting the brake lights can cause a ripple effect leading to a queue 3 miles behind? Well cop cars sitting in lay-bys can cause that too, people see the cars and react and then an hour later a junction is backed up.

If you really want the M50 to shut down then put some police on there at rush hour and have them pulling in people who did something wrong, then sit back and watch the tailbacks grow.

Anyone found to be at fault for one of these accidents (the vast majority caused by someone doing a dangerous 'get ahead' manoeuvre) shouldn't just get off with a claim on their insurance. If the books were gone for at least 3 months people might think again.

PhilOssophy

A better use of resources would be to build something like a Luas parallel to the M50, service some key interchange points for commuters and go to the major employment hubs (e.g. industrial estates).
The problem with the M50 is
1. The appalling standard of driving (e.g. lane discipline)
2. There is just too many cars on it.

shar01

I've seen it on the N11 northbound in the mornings, guards will have pulled over someone in the hard shoulder and some fu(king, scuttering shytebag will slow the fu(k down for some reason unknown to mankind.

And tailgaters - I would quite happily rip their heads off and spit in the hole.

The Nal

The issue is that motorway driving isn't thought or tested. We still test drivers on 1970s roads. No one knows or cares about merging, changing lanes etc. Its systemic.

AugustusMinimus

It might help if there was any policing outside of speeding and drink driving. A mantra seems to be evolving with the Irish motorist that as long as they are not speeding or drink driving then they are fine.

Driving standards are going through the floor.

The J Stands for Jay

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It might help if there was any policing outside of speeding and drink driving. A mantra seems to be evolving with the Irish motorist that as long as they are not speeding or drink driving then they are fine.

Driving standards are going through the floor.

When policing the M50 is mentioned, the first reply expects them to be in a lay-by, looking for speeders. They should be patrolling the M50, looking for poor/dangerous driving.

The chan chan man

Its insane at the moment!! 90 minutes from kimmage to rathcoole on thursday and 2 hours from town to rathcoole yesterday!! Why even bother at this stage.

A single crash on the m50 destroys traffic flow throughout Dublin!

blackbox

Garda motorbikes are ideal for M50.
Need to put a stop to people using handheld phones.
Crazy Muppets when Bluetooth is available.

easypazz

McGaggs wrote: »

When policing the M50 is mentioned, the first reply expects them to be in a lay-by, looking for speeders. They should be patrolling the M50, looking for poor/dangerous driving.

If a squad car with blue lights on pulls somebody from the fast lane to the hard shoulder to ticket them for poor driving, using their phone etc., can you imagine the chaos that would cause!

Twister2

blackbox wrote: »

Garda motorbikes are ideal for M50.
Need to put a stop to people using handheld phones.
Crazy Muppets when Bluetooth is available.

Bluetooth is just as dangerous

Cee-Jay-Cee

McGaggs wrote: »

When policing the M50 is mentioned, the first reply expects them to be in a lay-by, looking for speeders. They should be patrolling the M50, looking for poor/dangerous driving.

Absolutely pointless. One patrol car would only be able to police a minuscule % of the traffic on the M50, you’d need hundreds of patrols cars to do it properly and then that would only cause traffic to slow up causing even more congestion.

Simply, there is too much traffic on the M50, many drivers don’t know how to drive on motorways or use lanes properly and the junctions are all leading to equally congested roads which means traffic always builds up.

The junction for the airport/M1 needs to be 4 lanes also, the two current lanes can’t handle the traffic coming off the M50 in the evenings.

brevity

It’s a huge problem in cork too, if there is an accident on the link or the JLT Cork comes to a stand still. On several occasions It took me 90 minutes to get to work - a journey that normally takes 30-40.

When I reached the accident there were 4 cars involved and debris all over the road. No Gardaí to be seen. Surely they could have been there directing traffic, getting the rubber neckers to move on.

People need to slow down and not be so bloody aggressive when driving too.

Irishphotodesk

JupiterKid wrote: »

Another day, another accident on the M50. It's getting beyond a joke at this stage. There seems to be an accident/collision on the M50 nearly every single day now and it really messes up the already very heavy traffic...

Why isn't the M50 patrolled by the Gardai better? These accidents seem to take forever to be cleared and if the road was properly policed, perhaps people would take more care and these near daily accidents would be avoided.

Thoughts?

First thought is to ask how do you suggest it can be policed ?

Putting multiple Garda vehicles on the M50 would possibly cause traffic to move even slower/longer backlogs.

A proper analysis of the issue would explain that there are multiple factors causing these accidents from arrogance to ignorance, bad or inadequate signage/markings, bad drivers, bad vehicles, bad weather conditions - the list is endless.

How to stop accidents on the m50 or any motorway?
- Simplest solution would be correct driver training, this could be a slow enough process, and something I believe should be done is everyone involved in car accidents should be forced to undergo driver awareness training (advanced driving course) ...before they are permitted back on the road, this could possibly lead to a backlog of bad drivers off the road (if we are lucky).

Enforce the traffic laws for those involved in accidents, change the laws to allow dash cam footage be permitted and accepted by a court, stop the legals challenging evidence that is fairly straight forward, unless they can prove the evidence is fake, having the wrong date/time on a dash cam when it clearly shows the event should mean it is allowable.

Improve driver behaviour on the roads by having ANPR cameras along bus routes, if vehicle in a bus lane isn't a registered bus or taxi,..... Fine automatically sent, driver behaviour on motorways will improve if the risk of getting caught/punished is increased significantly.

bucketybuck

McGaggs wrote: »

When policing the M50 is mentioned, the first reply expects them to be in a lay-by, looking for speeders. They should be patrolling the M50, looking for poor/dangerous driving.

The first reply said not a damn thing about speeders, and only mentioned lay-bys as one example of where they might be visible.

Try reading for comprehension.

bucketybuck wrote: »

Not intended as a direct response to the OP, but I remember reading a long time ago that police are directed not to be visible on certain busy roads at rush hour because they actually make the traffic worse.

Which makes sense. Did you ever see those "wave" models of traffic flow, where one guy hitting the brake lights can cause a ripple effect leading to a queue 3 miles behind? Well cop cars sitting in lay-bys can cause that too, people see the cars and react and then an hour later a junction is backed up.

If you really want the M50 to shut down then put some police on there at rush hour and have them pulling in people who did something wrong, then sit back and watch the tailbacks grow.

marno21

You could replace 'M50' in this thread and replace it with 'N40' and all of it would apply to the situation in Cork.

Speed vans everywhere but speeding is not the issue here.

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

You could replace 'M50' in this thread and replace it with 'N40' and all of it would apply to the situation in Cork.

Speed vans everywhere but speeding is not the issue here.

It’s not speeding and it’s not phones, despite a lot of people being obsessed with both. In the morning and evening traffic it’s people not being where they should be early enough and then pulling a dangerous manoeuvre because you’d swear you get bloody race points for where you come on the roads in this country. Always have to be that one car ahead no matter what it takes.

hmmm

The standard of driving on the M50 is appalling, and it's more than simple unawareness - it's an almost complete lack of enforcement of anything. A few high-profile convictions for dangerous driving (cutting across multiple lanes at the last minute to reach an exit, tailgating, middle lane dawdling) would send a bit of a message. I don't expect it to happen though, we seem to have a bit of a problem at the moment with enforcement of any laws.

Pete_Cavan

How much enforcement can technology do at present and how much will it do in the near future? Average speed is the obvious one and is already in existence. Could there be a camera X distance from a junction and if you took the exit but were not in lane 1 at that point, you get fined for taking the exit late? What about the cameras noting cars incorrectly sitting in the middle lane for too long? Greater standard CCTV coverage would also be good which could be used in court against someone who caused an accident rather than dashcams.

I'm sure the technology is/will be there but lots of legislative changes would be needed (and a Minister willing to change legislation). I think technology is the only hope for meaningful enforcement on our urban motorways because, as others here have pointed out, manual policing is not practical.

Dravokivich

The Nal wrote: »

The issue is that motorway driving isn't thought or tested. We still test drivers on 1970s roads. No one knows or cares about merging, changing lanes etc. Its systemic.

You didn't get tested on a motorway, so does that mean you are unsure on how to approach one? We dont need to test on motorways. And requiring one will reduce the accessibility of test centres. It's just a dual carriageway. Making it sound like something special, isnt really needed.

The issue is with accidents on motorways here and the M50/M1 in particular is with people rushing through things. A lot of the accidents on the motorways happen when people dont properly assess lane movements and leave them to the last moment it could potentially be completed. You cant police that.

jrar

Not being tested on one is not the only issue - not having an opportunity to drive on one to gain experience is the issue. I see it with my own daughter, she passed her test last Dec. aged 18, and is now legally entitled to drive on a motorway even though she has zero experience of how to handle it.

We allow her supervised opportunities on dual carriageways, and she has now also driven on quieter stretches of the M4 - what we're trying to show her is that unlike single carriageway roads, a lot of the issues she might encounter are BEHIND her i.e. drivers changing lanes suddenly, coming up fast in overtaking lanes, exiting late etc. i.e. you need to be extra vigilant and everything happens a lot quicker than it might do on a singe carriage road.

Coupled with that, we're trying to ensure she drives in the leftmost lane as required by law, and that she gets experience in judging the speed of others in her side/rear mirror before executing any overtaking manoeuvre.

She's a confident driver but she does find it difficult at times to "remember" everything, and her biggest bugbear ? Middle lane drivers on 3-lane carriageways where you're almost "forced" to undertake them, or else join a potentially very fast moving flow of traffic all trying to funnel through the one remaining overtaking lane to get past the middle lane merchant, only to have to rinse and repeat every 100/200 metres as you meet more and more of these numpties !

is_that_so

hmmm wrote: »

The standard of driving on the M50 is appalling, and it's more than simple unawareness - it's an almost complete lack of enforcement of anything. A few high-profile convictions for dangerous driving (cutting across multiple lanes at the last minute to reach an exit, tailgating, middle lane dawdling) would send a bit of a message. I don't expect it to happen though, we seem to have a bit of a problem at the moment with enforcement of any laws.

It's also motorists getting onto the M50 knowing that they could be talking the guts of an hour or more to do the length of it. I agree on the driving standards although that to me is the lack of real motorway driving most of them do. The M50 is motorway in name only, given how low speeds get at times. The brake lights slowdowns are also a killer on a road like that along with motorists predilection for staying in the "fast" lane. I also concur on the Garda/Gatso presence. One van on the M1 in evening rush hour added nearly 15m journey time to a section of motorway which at worst would take 20m.

Necro

Would traffic cameras on all the junctions work? Live feeds that are viewed on a regular basis by the Traffic Corps/civilian members of the Gardai.

Grab the reg and a summons/fine issues to the owner in the post, let them fight it in court if they want then.

Seems to me an easy way around the patrolling issue.

Pie in the sky idea maybe.

lawred2

JupiterKid wrote: »

Another day, another accident on the M50. It's getting beyond a joke at this stage. There seems to be an accident/collision on the M50 nearly every single day now and it really messes up the already very heavy traffic...

Why isn't the M50 patrolled by the Gardai better? These accidents seem to take forever to be cleared and if the road was properly policed, perhaps people would take more care and these near daily accidents would be avoided.

Thoughts?

What do you want policed?

minikin

Almost had a brain bleed yesterday... I was in the driving lane, with another fine motorist in first overtaking lane to my right. All empty lanes ahead of us for half a km. (M1 southbound at airport) A Range Rover comes off the slip road ahead of us and immediately heads for the most overtakiest lane... three empty lanes on the inside. What’s going on at all? Can we fund work on a vaccine?

Bass Reeves

In the US during rush hour police virtually never pull for speeding. But they target dangerous driving. They haul over drivers for constant lane changing or for not being in the right lane to exit early enough. They also target drivers coming onto motorways and crossing lanes to fast. Tailgateing is targeted as is any stupid driving. When drivers realize this they are more careful in there driving habits. But if they see a police car they are not panicked onto sudden braking.

tuxy

minikin wrote: »

Almost had a brain bleed yesterday... I was in the driving lane, with another fine motorist in first overtaking lane to my right. All empty lanes ahead of us for half a km. (M1 southbound at airport) A Range Rover comes off the slip road ahead of us and immediately heads for the most overtakiest lane... three empty lanes on the inside. What’s going on at all? Can we fund work on a vaccine?

Well we already had a poster calling it the fast lane.
If there was a fast lane then it would be appropriate for everyone to use it and get places faster.
Lane discipline is an issue on every road in Ireland with more than one carriageway.
Policing and all the rest will have no good impact, as said the real issue is too many cars on the M50. The only solution would be to reduce the number of cars using the M50 at peak hours. But that would require an adequate public transport system which is another can of worms.

Charles Babbage

The Nal wrote: »

The issue is that motorway driving isn't thought or tested. We still test drivers on 1970s roads. No one knows or cares about merging, changing lanes etc. Its systemic.

This is an just an excuse. Motorways are the easiest roads to drive on, I did not do a motorway section in my test and I have no problem understanding how to drive on a motorway. People may not care, but this is not because they do not know.


There has to be a role for camera based enforcement. In this day and age it must be possible for AI to tag cars cutting across lanes, tailgating etc and any section of video so tagged could be reviewed by humans and fines sent out. Once you started enforcing, things would improve markedly and any remaining scofflaws could be targeted.

ebbsy

Crashes on the N7 are a joke at this point.

Why can't people stay in their lane until it is safe to switch lanes.

Can I ask should motorway driving be part of the driving test ? Because some people can't drive in a straight line.

CrankyHaus

Garda Traffic Corps/Roads Policing do some enforcement on the M50. I know a woman who had a motorcycle Garda charge her for using her phone in stop start traffic, he was filtering through the traffic checking for people doing this. When I had to report dangerous driving on the M50 the Traffic Corps/Roads Policing were very helpful. I'd say lack of resources is a big issue.

As Charles Babbage mentioned above technology offers a solution to bridge the resources gap. Enforcement cameras could cost-effectively address rampant dangerous driving (as with traffic light junctions where deliberate breaking of red lights is now routine as its unenforced). Unfortunately there's a significant lobby of useful idiots who'll oppose this as "Orwellian", "authoritarian" and "fascist" (see the outrage over the PSC Card for example).