4 bed house with 5 bedrooms

Chet T16

We had our house valued today with a view to selling in the new year. Originally the house was a 4 bed dormer with detached garage, soon after it was built (early 90s) the first owners converted the garage and joined it to the house, adding two rooms.

When we bought it there was 4 bedrooms and it was listed as such. The additional rooms being used as a study and a second sitting room. We have changed the usage now with the two rooms in the extension becoming bedrooms and an original smaller bedroom becoming my office.

The estate agent today said we could only sell it as a 4 bed as that's what it originally was. Why is this? Is it a planning thing? Can we do something to change it? For selling should we not have 5 rooms as bedrooms?

Thanks

Bdjsjsjs

Chet T16 wrote: »

We had our house valued today with a view to selling in the new year. Originally the house was a 4 bed dormer with detached garage, soon after it was built (early 90s) the first owners converted the garage and joined it to the house, adding two rooms.

When we bought it there was 4 bedrooms and it was listed as such. The additional rooms being used as a study and a second sitting room. We have changed the usage now with the two rooms in the extension becoming bedrooms and an original smaller bedroom becoming my office.

The estate agent today said we could only sell it as a 4 bed as that's what it originally was. Why is this? Is it a planning thing? Can we do something to change it? For selling should we not have 5 rooms as bedrooms?

Thanks

There is a variety of spec you have to meet for a bedroom like window size etc. I'm not sure if this is what they mean.

riclad

When you sell the house, there will be photo,s of each room,
and details of size, eg house is 900 sq ft.
it will not make any difference to the sale price.
it will be listed as a house with x no of rooms and 4 bedrooms .
There may be a technical reason why a downstairs room cannot be listed as a bedroom .
maybe it has no windows ,
or the windows cannot be opened in the event of a fire .

appledrop

Yep it cant be classed as bedrooms for fire + safety reasons usually.

Very common with converted attics. People may use them as bedrooms but if they dont have ceiling height + actually fire escape cant be classed as bedrooms in any sale.

Gumbo

appledrop wrote: »

Yep it cant be classed as bedrooms for fire + safety reasons usually.

Very common with converted attics. People may use them as bedrooms but if they dont have ceiling height + actually fire escape cant be classed as bedrooms in any sale.

I understand the OP that the converted garage is what the new bedroom is. Not the attic as it was originally a dormer.

One the converted garage complies with the requirements for an additional bedroom then you can call it that. Make sure it’s set out as a bedroom for the viewings and photos.

I personally think the EA is wrong here.
Get the opinion of another EA.

appledrop

No I'd still say cant be classed as bedroom whether attic or garage if it doesn't meet planning/ fire safety regulations.

I was just using attic as an example as more common one.

appledrop

OP when buying the house did you not get all the documents about the garage extension. This should have outlined all the conditions e.g if non habitable living space etc.

You have to be very careful with attic/garage conversions in Ireland + if they meet all regulations.

Gumbo

appledrop wrote: »

No I'd still say cant be classed as bedroom whether attic or garage if it doesn't meet planning/ fire safety regulations.

I was just using attic as an example as more common one.

Hence why I said

One the converted garage complies with the requirements for an additional bedroom then you can call it that.

I’d like more detail from the OP but it’s very easy to class a converted garage as a bedroom.

Firstly it’s exempt from Planning under certain circumstances.
Then the fire safety requirements are means of escape and alternative means of escape. Once one escape is into the hallway and the other is by way of a compliant window (0.33 Sq. M and min. 450mm wide) then your sorted.
There are of course other building regulations to comply with to class it as a habitable room such as Part L, Part F (room height) etc

I’ve seen many, inspected many and certified many so easily done OP. Just sounds like you got a bad EA by the statement “you can only sell it as per what the house originally had”.

As the poster above mentions, chase up the planning files. For a detached garage to be connected to the house, then there should be a record of Planning.

Also when you bought, your surveyor should have picked up on the alterations and then stated that the certs of compliance or exemption be produced as part of the sales pack.

Chet T16

From a completely biased and uninformed point of view I could see no issue with them being classed as bedrooms. 2 of the original bedrooms were downstairs with similar windows (4ft with large openings). Of the two extra rooms one has an additional large bay window and the other has a sliding door.

I just know from experience house hunting and scrolling down daft that a 5 bed with stand out against a 4 bed.

pwurple

Our estate agent said that as well, that our downstairs en suite bedroom (with a disabled sized toilet etc) would not be classed as a bedroom for valuation, because it wasn't upstairs.

The odd thing is, when we bought the house though, it was a bungalow and it was the only bedroom. It met every kind of standard about fire access, height, insulation, windows, planning etc according to our engineer and solicitor. It wasn't a no-bedroomed house. We put on the two storey extension with upstairs bedrooms a few years later

So, tbh, I think estate agents just have some rules of thumb on this.

Envelope436

From a buyers perspective it is easy to see when space has been converted to a bedroom - so even if it is being sold as a 5 bed, once I look at something i can tell it was originally a 4 bed and view it is a such.

Envelope436

Envelope436 wrote: »

From a buyers perspective it is easy to see when space has been converted to a bedroom - so even if it is being sold as a 5 bed, once I look at something i can tell it was originally a 4 bed and view it is a such.

How much more of a valuation boost would a 5th bedroom actually be? I would assume a lot less than the jump from 3 to 4.

Doop

As long as there is no issue with the rooms being utilised as habitable rooms as per the building regs then there is no reason they couldn't be called bedrooms.

I would question the estate agents reasoning on that one.

Realistically I'm not sure it would affect value but it may affect potential purchasers from coming to see the property ie looking for 5 bed so wont see a four bed. But I would imagine the market of people only looking for a 5 bed is slim seeing as such properties would be thin on the ground. A four bed with an office may of more interest to some...

riclad

You will get a good price based on the size of the house,
there are very few buyers looking for a 5 bed house,
3-4 bedrooms are enough for most people .it would look odd to have a bedroom right beside a kitchen .most of the price of the house is based on location,size of the house,does it have a new kitchen etc

scamalert

What's on BER cert ? recently getting new one seen that on mine its 4bedroom, even thou one would be closet size at best. maybe office or smth, as long as theres windows radiators think any room could be called bedroom. so really not for estate agent to decide.

riclad

Maybe the ber cert has 4 bedrooms listed, or the 5 th room has no windows which can be opened from the inside .
so the agent puts it down as a lounge or a spare room.
i would trust the agent and go along with his opinion.

riclad

riclad wrote: »

Maybe the ber cert has 4 bedrooms listed, or the 5 th room has no windows which can be opened from the inside .
so the agent puts it down as a lounge or a spare room.
i would trust the agent and go along with his opinion.

Trust an estate agent, good one :pac:. I’d be included to believe the exact opposite of what he says.

godtabh

I bought a 3 bedroom house with 4 bedrooms. THe 4th room didnt have the minimum floor to ceiling height and could only be sold as a 3 bed.

Doop

godtabh wrote: »

I bought a 3 bedroom house with 4 bedrooms. THe 4th room didnt have the minimum floor to ceiling height and could only be sold as a 3 bed.

An attic conversion? If it didn't have the ceiling height it doesn't comply with building regs.. part F, unlikely it complies with Part B (fire) either, so its not a habitable room... therefore its not a bedroom.

Gumbo

riclad wrote: »

i would trust the agent and go along with his opinion.

LOL
I personally don’t know one Estate Agent that is familiar with planning or building regulations, not one, seriously.

Gumbo

Envelope436 wrote: »

From a buyers perspective it is easy to see when space has been converted to a bedroom - so even if it is being sold as a 5 bed, once I look at something i can tell it was originally a 4 bed and view it is a such.

And there’s nothing wrong with converted bedrooms once they comply.

riclad

If the room is downstairs with no ensuite bathroom,
beside the kitchen,
it may look better to buyers to not list it as a bedroom,.
i,m not an expert ,fire regs might require a bedroom to have a large window that can be opened in case of a fire .
eg a window large enough for a person to leave the house.
or maybe the room is just small .the agents job is to sell the house,
i would simply follow his advice .
Most people will prefer to have all bedrooms upstairs ,
if the house has 2 storeys .

Gumbo

riclad wrote: »

If the room is downstairs with no ensuite bathroom,
beside the kitchen,
it may look better to buyers to not list it as a bedroom,.
i,m not an expert ,fire regs might require a bedroom to have a large window that can be opened in case of a fire .
eg a window large enough for a person to leave the house.
or maybe the room is just small .the agents job is to sell the house,
i would simply follow his advice .
Most people will prefer to have all bedrooms upstairs ,
if the house has 2 storeys .

Do not follow the EA advice on planning or building regulation matters.
The bedroom requires a window that opens with an area of 0.33 Sq. M and a minimum width of 450mm.
It also has to be between 800-1100mm from the floor level. No key locks either.

scamalert

Ive been a bit misleading as looking at BER cert online it just mentions how many storeys house is and overall sq/m space - not sure where i got number of bedrooms mentioned :cool:



Since in Op description there was garage conversion done which seems legit, maybe issue of radiators absent would not classify it bedroom if they weren't installed, or extra insulation, which would be hard to guess here. but in recent years plenty people converted as those small garages arent fit for much, so extra room seems best option to utilize such space.


bottom question would be how much that affects general price, as most people would see it as a room if someone lived in it already vs just 4. as depending on extension 5th room might sound appealing to most maybe less value but better then some old unused space to store all the crap. But overall its dimensions that would be of more importance, as it could be room for small kids with bunk bed in it.

Chet T16

See attached pic. Both rooms have these windows along with bay window in the front room and sliding door in the rear one. Walls are dry lined (as is the house), attic is insulated, ceiling height is somewhere around 9ft. Both rooms have rads installed. So I'm not really hearing anything that gives me an answer.

They are off the kitchen alright (via a hall) and obviously downstairs but so were two of the original ones.

I'm not too concerned about it, it just struck me as a bit odd.

Gumbo

Window looks small. Looks tight for means of escape/rescue.

Doop

Doop wrote: »

An attic conversion? If it didn't have the ceiling height it doesn't comply with building regs.. part F, unlikely it complies with Part B (fire) either, so its not a habitable room... therefore its not a bedroom.

Nothing stopping you using it as a bedroom though.

Chet T16

kceire wrote: »

Window looks small. Looks tight for means of escape/rescue.

It's the same as the two downstairs rooms

q85dw7osi4lebg

That's a bedroom.

Fire regs etc only come into it with attic conversions generally (access/escape).

Won't make a difference in an ad though generally, those looking for a 5 bed will see the potential.

Go to a different agent, most would classify it as a bedroom.

Unless the agent is also a architect / tech, they wouldn't know the regs.

q85dw7osi4lebg

You can literally call a dining room a bedroom if you want to FYI. It's just a name for a room.

scamalert

how the hell window are to small in that pic ? the ones on roof in attic would be 3rd the size on most houses, and those are on first floor, even a good kick would take out entire frame if one was in any danger.

BTW floors look nice and black skirting while not a fan but seems done well.

Gumbo

Chet T16 wrote: »

It's the same as the two downstairs rooms

Measure them and see if they comply.
I gave you the reasons earlier as to how you can classify them as bedrooms. I’m on your side, remember.

Just giving you opinions based on the photo, but measure them in real life.

Gumbo

scamalert wrote: »

how the hell window are to small in that pic ? the ones on roof in attic would be 3rd the size on most houses, and those are on first floor, even a good kick would take out entire frame if one was in any danger.

BTW floors look nice and black skirting while not a fan but seems done well.

It’s not the whole window you measure. It’s only the opening section that can count towards the area of 0.33 Sq. M, 450mm wide and 750mm tall.

It’s measured while opened too, so the effective clear opening. You have to discount the frames, handles etc

scamalert

kceire wrote: »

It’s not the whole window you measure. It’s only the opening section that can count towards the area of 0.33 Sq. M, 450mm wide and 750mm tall.

It’s measured while opened too, so the effective clear opening. You have to discount the frames, handles etc

thats actually very small window needed, 50cm total just went to measure my window like in OP pic, and its closer to 60cm with frame just on the part that opens.


thou to just get back i dont see any radiators in the room, might be out of reach of picture could that be contributing factor more likely.

Gumbo

scamalert wrote: »

thats actually very small window needed, 45cm total just went to measure my window like in OP pic, and its closer to 55cm without any frame just on the part that opens.


thou to just get back i dont see any radiators in the room, might be out of reach of picture could that be contributing factor more likely.

Open the window fully.
Then measure the clear opening.

The total area needs to be 0.33 Sq. M. With the width a minimum of 450mm of clear opening. That means the height has to be at least 750mm but can be bigger.

The basic old school test and I’ve seen this been done on site over the years, is to see if a 450mm square cube can fit out. That would be a rule of thumb.

scamalert

kceire wrote: »

Open the window fully.
Then measure the clear opening.

The total area needs to be 0.33 Sq. M. With the width a minimum of 450mm of clear opening. That means the height has to be at least 750mm but can be bigger.

The basic old school test and I’ve seen this been done on site over the years, is to see if a 450mm square cube can fit out. That would be a rule of thumb.

ok i might measured wrong as a bit hard to follow on pic with an angle, so would he need to measure the one on the right that has another opening at the top if so, then yes i could see it could be a bit short of 75cm height.

Gumbo

Allyson Abundant Comma wrote: »

That's a bedroom.

I agree

Allyson Abundant Comma wrote: »

Fire regs etc only come into it with attic conversions generally (access/escape).

.

I don’t agree. Fire regs are applicable to all habitable rooms within a dwelling. Whether that be smoke detection, fire doors, alternative means of escape etc

Not just attics.

q85dw7osi4lebg

kceire wrote: »

I agree



I don’t agree. Fire regs are applicable to all habitable rooms within a dwelling. Whether that be smoke detection, fire doors, alternative means of escape etc

Not just attics.

Note I said the word generally, if a room is of standard ceiling height and you have the obvious safety measures in place, a room is a room. Floor area doesn't matter (think box room, bar attic)

I guarantee 90% of agents wouldn't cop a non conforming room other than a converted attic.

A double fronted 3 bed semi? That'll be a 4 bed if you want to call it that.

Gumbo

Allyson Abundant Comma wrote: »

Note I said the word generally, if a room is of standard ceiling height and you have the obvious safety measures in place, a room is a room. Floor area doesn't matter (think box room, bar attic)

I guarantee 90% of agents wouldn't cop a non conforming room other than a converted attic.

A double fronted 3 bed semi? That'll be a 4 bed if you want to call it that.

I agree. And have stated that in my first posts on page 1 of this thread

scamalert

attic would be generally worse as depending on amounts of windows doubt any of them are45cm length and usually have opening that's on sides of the middle so can only open vertically which leaves few maybe 20cm/sq gap, yet somehow its seems ridicilous that ground floor window would be as not safe.


that aside when conversion was done was there any inspection carried, paperwork issued to terms of how room is classed.


as do believe agents would have no clue aside taking pictures that make places larger then they are and posting adds.


try different company as those estimates etc are free from them and see what another has to say, about that, as their main skill set.

Gumbo

scamalert wrote: »

attic would be generally worse as depending on amounts of windows doubt any of them are45cm length and usually have opening that's on sides of the middle so can only open vertically which leaves few maybe 20cm/sq gap, yet somehow its seems ridicilous that ground floor window would be as not safe.


that aside when conversion was done was there any inspection carried, paperwork issued to terms of how room is classed.


as do believe agents would have no clue aside taking pictures that make places larger then they are and posting adds.


try different company as those estimates etc are free from them and see what another has to say, about that, as their main skill set.

Attics are different.
The area of opening remains the same, but with a Velux now, it can be 60mm from the floor, so lower. It also has to be top hung.

Once the Velux is opened it creates a massive opening to escape onto the roof or be rescued, one the correct window is picked, a 980x780 top hung version would be more than suitable.

scamalert

kceire wrote: »

Attics are different.
The area of opening remains the same, but with a Velux now, it can be 60mm from the floor, so lower. It also has to be top hung.

Once the Velux is opened it creates a massive opening to escape onto the roof or be rescued, one the correct window is picked, a 980x780 top hung version would be more than suitable.

im not well versed in all the options but do know that in my attic hinges are setup mid frame from both sides, so that leaves tiny gap where head wouldnt fit trought, as they open vertically so any lenght is half. Now wont argue theres different options to those and mine are dunno 10-15 years old.

Gumbo

scamalert wrote: »

im not well versed in all the options but do know that in my attic hinges are setup mid frame from both sides, so that leaves tiny gap where head wouldnt fit trought, as they open vertically so any lenght is half. Now wont argue theres different options to those and mine are dunno 10-15 years old.

Sounds like you have centre pivot ones.
Only one needs to be too hung to aid escape.

Make sure they don’t swing both ways. Mine are centre pivot and
Top hung.

sydthebeat

kceire wrote: »

Only one needs to be too hung to aid escape.
.

I would have thought being "too hung" might hinder escape

scamalert

yeah both of them centered so windows can open only vertically, but that aisde point as OP situation seems different, so would be more interesting to hear if hes right or not, since room seems fine well at least from the photo.

Gumbo

sydthebeat wrote: »

I would have thought being "too hung" might hinder escape

mickdw

I don't know if it has been mentioned but fire escape requirement would only have come in from 1998 so if the works were before that, an escape window is not required although very much advised.
If windows had been updated since, they must then comply.

c.p.w.g.w

I bought my house, it was listed as 4 bedrooms(really only 3).

But one of the listed bedrooms was a dinning room, it had french doors connecting the living room. I knew that was the case from the listing as I was familiar with the houses.

But the majority of houses that are listed for my estate stay 4 bedrooms and they are the exact same layout.

Gumbo

mickdw wrote: »

I don't know if it has been mentioned but fire escape requirement would only have come in from 1998 so if the works were before that, an escape window is not required although very much advised.
If windows had been updated since, they must then comply.

1991 no?

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/part_b_1991_-_fire_safety.pdf

Gumbo

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

I bought my house, it was listed as 4 bedrooms(really only 3).

But one of the listed bedrooms was a dinning room, it had french doors connecting the living room. I knew that was the case from the listing as I was familiar with the houses.

But the majority of houses that are listed for my estate stay 4 bedrooms and they are the exact same layout.

I wouldn’t class that as a bedroom myself personally. It’s part of the living space and with direct access to the living room, then it would be a nuisance.

Even if you blocked the double doors, the other door I’m guessing is into the kitchen space and not the entrance hall?

c.p.w.g.w

kceire wrote: »

I wouldn’t class that as a bedroom myself personally. It’s part of the living space and with direct access to the living room, then it would be a nuisance.

Even if you blocked the double doors, the other door I’m guessing is into the kitchen space and not the entrance hall?

I never considered it a bedroom, it's now part of the open plan kitchen/dinning room