RTÉ to cease DAB broadcasting

end of the road

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

How many listeners would you see a viable station needing to have?

we don't currently have a radio market, or the ability for stations to determine their business model, so it's not possible to say with certainty what such a number would be.
only upon such conditions being allowed to exist, would we be able to see the actual necessary costs of running a station, for which we could then truely gauge.
there would be no point in me plucking figures out of thin air.

Foxy wolf

The reality is the general public wouldn't support new services by listening. The original 4fm should have been a massive success, particularly in Dublin.

Foxy wolf

SimonMaher wrote: »

I'm staying out of this debate as much as possible because it melts my brain and more importantly because there are peoples actual real life jobs involved but I'm just going to touch really briefly on a couple of bits:

1) I don't buy the fragmenting a shrinking pie argument for one second. Interestingly, in the UK where there are hundreds of extra stations of all sizes from niche DAB on a Minmux to national brands launched in the last 10 years, radio listening has remained stable and revenue has grown year on year. Pretty much the opposite of what has happened here.

2) Nor do I buy the "market can't sustain" argument. What are people basing this on? Presumably the line of argument is based around stations operating on a scale which may have suited to 2002 rather than 2019? Business models change to suit changing market conditions all the time. Why on earth should or would radio be any different?

3) Final one is from experience. Don't presume that just because an operator says they are stopping a platform that they actually will and don't presume that the platform will die as a result. Strangely enough, I think that recent events (including the arrival of FreeDab) might actually be the spark that will speed the development of DAB here. It might work, it might not but that is no reason not to try surely?

Simon
8Radio.com

There has been a consequence tho to radio deregulation in the UK. Local independent stations have been completely destroyed

Foxy wolf

Imagine if Galway bay FM, Midwest, Clare FM, ocean etc were replaced by a relay of 98fm from Dublin and if 98fm then slashed staff and used more and more automation. Well that's exactly the equivalent of what's actually happened to local radio in Britian.

lengon

Former Former wrote: »

We already have exactly as many of these as the market wants.

How do you know?

end of the road

Foxy wolf wrote: »

The reality is the general public wouldn't support new services by listening. The original 4fm should have been a massive success, particularly in Dublin.

it's not necessarely the reality in general.
it is under the existing model yes, but under a low cost model, then things may indeed be very very different, but we won't know until we actually give it a try.
4fm and it's history is certainly an interesting discussion of it's own, but realistically it probably was always going to end up as it did, even if it was a massive success.
all the presenters it had would have added up to quite the cost i would imagine alone.

Foxy wolf wrote: »

There has been a consequence tho to radio deregulation in the UK. Local independent stations have been completely destroyed

some of those local stations were going to go anyway.
the mistake made in the uk was that they didn't just let stations close and let new operators apply for the licenses.
instead they allowed national brands via the back door just to keep stations on air hense there is the mess of multiple relays of the same thing.

Former Former

lengon wrote: »

How do you know?

If anyone wants to argue with me that there is sufficient interest for a radio station broadcasting jazz to be commercially viable in Ireland, then I honestly wouldn't know how to respond to that. Or musicals?? Come on.

lengon

Former Former wrote: »

If anyone wants to argue with me that there is sufficient interest for a radio station broadcasting jazz to be commercially viable in Ireland, then I honestly wouldn't know how to respond to that. Or musicals?? Come on.

It depends what the costs are and in the UK the low-cost minimuxes allow community stations to broadcast. I mentioned musicals as just an example but since you took me up on that I'd reply by saying that there is one such station on a county multiplex and one of the largest radio groups, Bauer, is opening another next week on the London one.

Whenever an organisation tries to prevent competition it puts forward the argument that there's no room in the market.

SimonMaher

The reason I (try to) stay out of these debates is that we seem to go around in endless circles talking about platforms (whether that's DAB or FM or Online or whatever) when all that really matters is providing radio that people want to hear. Whether "people" is a few thousand for a Jazz station or an Indie station or a 70s station or a hundred thousand for a CHR station or whatever really doesn't matter.

Put simply, if I know that my realistic potential audience is (for example) 10,000 then I build my business model around that. If my potential revenue for those 10,000 listeners (across whatever platforms!) is (for example) 200k a year then, as with any other business in the world, I have to make sure my costs are 199,999 maximum. I get a small business that survives and the listeners get the content they want. This ain't rocket science lads.

If we produce compelling radio (for large or small audiences) then people will (or won't!) tune in and that's how business works. "Commercial Viability" in the way that it is used by the protectionists in an industry that is slowly strangling itself in Ireland is an utter red herring that, up to now, has been unquestioningly accepted as "fact".

Simon
8Radio.com

Foxy wolf

SimonMaher wrote: »

The reason I (try to) stay out of these debates is that we seem to go around in endless circles talking about platforms (whether that's DAB or FM or Online or whatever) when all that really matters is providing radio that people want to hear. Whether "people" is a few thousand for a Jazz station or an Indie station or a 70s station or a hundred thousand for a CHR station or whatever really doesn't matter.

Put simply, if I know that my realistic potential audience is (for example) 10,000 then I build my business model around that. If my potential revenue for those 10,000 listeners (across whatever platforms!) is (for example) 200k a year then, as with any other business in the world, I have to make sure my costs are 199,999 maximum. I get a small business that survives and the listeners get the content they want. This ain't rocket science lads.

If we produce compelling radio (for large or small audiences) then people will (or won't!) tune in and that's how business works. "Commercial Viability" in the way that it is used by the protectionists in an industry that is slowly strangling itself in Ireland is an utter red herring that, up to now, has been unquestioningly accepted as "fact".

Simon
8Radio.com

Ok, but who is going to pay for the rollout of dab to every every town, city, parish, highway and byway of the country?

SimonMaher

Foxy wolf wrote: »

Ok, but who is going to pay for the rollout of dab to every every town, city, parish, highway and byway of the country?

Back to the same point again. This excludes any obligations that RTE may have in terms of coverage (present or future).

Private MUX holders would presumably tailor their DAB offering to reach the maximum amount of customers at the minimum possible cost. So, they will pay to reach the large/medium population centres, motorways etc and anywhere else they are obliged by licence to cover. If they can make a go of that and pick up the required customers to pay for it, then we're good to go. If they can't, then they won't.

What exactly are we afraid of here?

Simon
8Radio.com

Foxy wolf

Boards posters certainly wouldn't be happy unless dab matched FM coverage

francie81

Start with scrapping 2FM first the world can live without the likes of beeber whining in the ears all day.

Former Former

SimonMaher wrote: »

Back to the same point again. This excludes any obligations that RTE may have in terms of coverage (present or future).

Private MUX holders would presumably tailor their DAB offering to reach the maximum amount of customers at the minimum possible cost. So, they will pay to reach the large/medium population centres, motorways etc and anywhere else they are obliged by licence to cover. If they can make a go of that and pick up the required customers to pay for it, then we're good to go. If they can't, then they won't.

What exactly are we afraid of here?

Simon
8Radio.com

We're not afraid of anything. We're talking about the realistic prospects of any of this actually happening. If it does happen, well that's awesome.

You're talking about "private MUX holders" - that's the big unknown, who's going to pony up the cash to a) build a national network, b) educate the public that it exists and c) convince them that DAB is so good that it's worth buying new hardware.

That's a LOT of money before you've even got one listener.

So then you ask, what sort of service is going to attract enough listeners to give me a return? It can't be niche services with a tiny audience.

I just can't see how it is going to happen.

lengon

Former Former wrote: »

We're not afraid of anything. We're talking about the realistic prospects of any of this actually happening. If it does happen, well that's awesome.

You're talking about "private MUX holders" - that's the big unknown, who's going to pony up the cash to a) build a national network, b) educate the public that it exists and c) convince them that DAB is so good that it's worth buying new hardware.

That's a LOT of money before you've even got one listener.

So then you ask, what sort of service is going to attract enough listeners to give me a return? It can't be niche services with a tiny audience.

I just can't see how it is going to happen.

So what is it about Ireland that it can't do what so many other countries can?

Foxy wolf

lengon wrote: »

So what is it about Ireland that it can't do what so many other countries can?

No other countries have death notices on the radio either. Comparing Ireland's radio landscape to another is pointless.

Former Former

lengon wrote: »

So what is it about Ireland that it can't do what so many other countries can?

I guess it depends on the country but generally a combination of market forces (population and population density) and government decisions to push a switchover. We have neither: the first is never going to happen and the ship has sailed on the second, rightly or wrongly.

The other issue is that other DAB networks predate the absolute behemoth that is mobile internet. If these other countries were starting from scratch in 2020, would they still go with DAB?

SimonMaher

Former Former wrote: »

We're not afraid of anything. We're talking about the realistic prospects of any of this actually happening. If it does happen, well that's awesome.

You're talking about "private MUX holders" - that's the big unknown, who's going to pony up the cash to a) build a national network, b) educate the public that it exists and c) convince them that DAB is so good that it's worth buying new hardware.

That's a LOT of money before you've even got one listener.

So then you ask, what sort of service is going to attract enough listeners to give me a return? It can't be niche services with a tiny audience.

I just can't see how it is going to happen.

Let's make this one really straightforward then.

Former Former, do you honestly believe that if DAB Multiplex Licences covering the major urban areas were offered in the morning that nobody would apply?

Former raised the point so that's why I'm asking him directly but the same question also goes to the other (generally newly registered) users who have been posting about it in the absolutist way that only the internet allows

Simon
8Radio.com

Foxy wolf

The CEO of radio Nova recently came out of the woodwork pretending to care about DAB when he refused the opportunity to Broadcast his 3 stations on DAB in cork for 50 quid a week last year.

Former Former

SimonMaher wrote: »

Let's make this one really straightforward then.

Former Former, do you honestly believe that if DAB Multiplex Licences covering the major urban areas were offered in the morning that nobody would apply?

Former raised the point so that's why I'm asking him directly but the same question also goes to the other (generally newly registered) users who have been posting about it in the absolutist way that only the internet allows

Simon
8Radio.com

I believe people would apply for licences, yes. I don't think I've ever said no one would apply.

The point is that a multiplex is a tiny, tiny fraction of what is required to make DAB viable.

SimonMaher

Former Former wrote: »

I believe people would apply for licences, yes. I don't think I've ever said no one would apply.

The point is that a multiplex is a tiny, tiny fraction of what is required to make DAB viable.

This is good! Thanks for your answer, appreciated.

So, I reckon that it's safe to assume that people will apply for DAB Mux licences so presumably they think it's a viable proposition. Next step then is to come up with a price that is reasonable for the MUX operator and a carriage cost figure that broadcasters will be able to justify.

Now, viability means very different things to very different people. For a large radio group, DAB is likely to be about brand extensions, new brands etc and is likely to be more an advertising and publicity tool than an actual stand-alone profit making venture.

That viability is entirely different then to viability for a broadcaster like 8Radio (just for example!) who are looking to be on as many platforms as possible in order to build hours listened, station awareness etc. Even then though, would 8Radio be relying on DAB for their revenue corn? I would venture (with some insight!) that the answer is no. It's all about getting the business model right.

So, if it could work for the Multiplex operator, if it could work for the big radio groups and it could work for the small broadcasters (depending on getting the model right) then "viability" is suddenly a very different beast.

Simon
8Radio.com

rogue-entity

lengon wrote: »

So what is it about Ireland that it can't do what so many other countries can?

Although your point is in the context of the thread topic, I believe the phenomenon is not unique to this topic but can be observed across other sectors of 'the Irish way of doing things' including and not limited to our position on ID cards (to use an example).

There seems to be, from my observation, a combination of 'vested interest', intransigence, Not-Invented-Here syndrome and a bizarre desire to follow England. It frequently appears that if another country, particularly one of comparable size and population density develops an idea, system or process that would be worthy of consideration and potentially implementing - we either completely ignore it or we ignore all the mistakes they made and implement it from scratch, badly.

Bringing this back to DAB - the UK model, as I recall, was a combination of the BBC's public-services MUX and tendered licences for one or two commercial operators. I do not know if this was similar to the screwing that mobile phone operators get for spectrum or just profiteering but some time after I recall a conversation about a price charged to broadcast on a DAB MUX in NI - a figure to the tune of £1,500 per month.

Former Former wrote: »

The other issue is that other DAB networks predate the absolute behemoth that is mobile internet. If these other countries were starting from scratch in 2020, would they still go with DAB?

Short answer is Yes with an if, long answer is No with a but.

If there's not sufficient space left on the FM band to add additional services they may have no option but to switch to DAB to operate a cost-effective broadcast service. If they have sufficient space and a closed market like ours, then they may decline to do so but accept that this will force alternative services to stream online with all of the limitations that come with that.

Take an online service, suppose you want to reach 1 million listeners - there's no means to do that cheaply and without either significant capital expense and ongoing operational expense on your part - or - paying someone else even more money to do that for you. To reach 1 million people and lets say we'll use HE-AAC at 48kbit/sec, you'd need ~48Gbit if I add another 20% to allow for uplink and overheads that's ~58Gbit which is quite a lot. A single DAB transmitter at a good site in a city area would cover the same number of listeners and cost significantly less to run.

Multicasting is an interesting idea, but then your broadcaster has two choices: Remain small and operate their own streaming servers, or pay each ISP to broadcast on their potential or existing platforms.

In short, Internet Radio is a dead end. I suspect the only reason it works at all today is that it has very few listeners.

SimonMaher wrote: »

Former Former, do you honestly believe that if DAB Multiplex Licences covering the major urban areas were offered in the morning that nobody would apply?

Former raised the point so that's why I'm asking him directly but the same question also goes to the other (generally newly registered) users who have been posting about it in the absolutist way that only the internet allows

Simon
8Radio.com

If the means to acquire a licence to operate a DAB mux were available, and not at an obscene price, I would be on it in a heartbeat.

Ursus Horribilis

If DAB can be funded privately, I don't see a problem. If it has to come out of the public coffers, to the detriment of broadband or something like that, absolutely not.

Paul Pott

National radio carriage on saorview could be done for under 50 grand a year but none of the independent stations have touched that either whereas in the UK all the independent stations are on Freeview.

Infoanon

H

Paul Pott wrote: »

National radio carriage on saorview could be done for under 50 grand a year but none of the independent stations have touched that either whereas in the UK all the independent stations are on Freeview.

There is a big difference between the penatration of free view and Saorview ,additionally- afaik stations have tried to get access but only Radio Maria has got carriage.

Short term protectionism instead of long term planning and realities

Former Former

Paul Pott wrote: »

National radio carriage on saorview could be done for under 50 grand a year but none of the independent stations have touched that either whereas in the UK all the independent stations are on Freeview.

How many people even know that Saorview carries radio, let alone use it for that purpose?

That 50k would be very poor value for money.

end of the road

Former Former wrote: »

How many people even know that Saorview carries radio, let alone use it for that purpose?

That 50k would be very poor value for money.

and even then it probably would be a lot more then 50k for carriage.

Franko87

rogue-entity wrote: »

Although your point is in the context of the thread topic, I believe the phenomenon is not unique to this topic but can be observed across other sectors of 'the Irish way of doing things' including and not limited to our position on ID cards (to use an example).

There seems to be, from my observation, a combination of 'vested interest', intransigence, Not-Invented-Here syndrome and a bizarre desire to follow England. It frequently appears that if another country, particularly one of comparable size and population density develops an idea, system or process that would be worthy of consideration and potentially implementing - we either completely ignore it or we ignore all the mistakes they made and implement it from scratch, badly.

Bringing this back to DAB - the UK model, as I recall, was a combination of the BBC's public-services MUX and tendered licences for one or two commercial operators. I do not know if this was similar to the screwing that mobile phone operators get for spectrum or just profiteering but some time after I recall a conversation about a price charged to broadcast on a DAB MUX in NI - a figure to the tune of £1,500 per month.


Short answer is Yes with an if, long answer is No with a but.

If there's not sufficient space left on the FM band to add additional services they may have no option but to switch to DAB to operate a cost-effective broadcast service. If they have sufficient space and a closed market like ours, then they may decline to do so but accept that this will force alternative services to stream online with all of the limitations that come with that.

Take an online service, suppose you want to reach 1 million listeners - there's no means to do that cheaply and without either significant capital expense and ongoing operational expense on your part - or - paying someone else even more money to do that for you. To reach 1 million people and lets say we'll use HE-AAC at 48kbit/sec, you'd need ~48Gbit if I add another 20% to allow for uplink and overheads that's ~58Gbit which is quite a lot. A single DAB transmitter at a good site in a city area would cover the same number of listeners and cost significantly less to run.

Multicasting is an interesting idea, but then your broadcaster has two choices: Remain small and operate their own streaming servers, or pay each ISP to broadcast on their potential or existing platforms.

In short, Internet Radio is a dead end. I suspect the only reason it works at all today is that it has very few listeners.


If the means to acquire a licence to operate a DAB mux were available, and not at an obscene price, I would be on it in a heartbeat.

the big issue here regarding dab is from the mux operator .licencing .firstly com-reg have no permanent licence available only test and trial meaning 1 year maybe 2 max and that is it your done there is a history regarding dab going back as far as 08 i think .total broadcast setup the first mux .and got 2 years from it . then there was eirdab who got a year. the point her is until com-reg re visit the licencing DAB there will be Little or no services on dab . .which is a issue .how do you convert the public to something the is not there. FreeDAB is trying to provide a service because of the issues with licencing . and to be honest if com-reg did entertain FreeDAB in regards licensing you can be sure thay are stations out there carrying section 71 licences who would gladly come on board

ford fiesta

Former Former wrote: »

How many people even know that Saorview carries radio, let alone use it for that purpose?

That 50k would be very poor value for money.

RTE digital radio stations are also carried on the other tv packages such as Eir and Virgin Media

Here's hoping the decision will be reversed and keep the RTE digital stations

Ally Dick

Thick question - would this affect podcasts of RTE shows on Spotify?