Wary I’ll be fired to avoid paying out redundancy.

LegacyUser

I’ve been a very loyal staff member of a large multinational for about 15 years.

Every year I have done very well in performance reviews and have never had any issues with successive managers. The last three years, my performance has been rexognised as going above and beyond. My mid year has been very solid this year.

Fast forward to now. My manager is flying over to have a “chat” with me. There is a new line of managers over him and I’m pretty sure my role is going to be made redundant during the conversation. It’s something that many on my side of the business could expect given the changes in how we operate and if that is the case, so be it. That doesn’t concern me.

Here’s the thing. I’m very wary that something is going to be pulled on that day to stop me getting a redundancy. I have had the feeling over the last 6 weeks that there is something not right. My manager is openly blaming me on a call for a project not being done when I specifically told him twice via mail and during conversation that we were on track. He also alluded that I was responsible for not getting a monthly report done when in fact he knows it’s not my responsibility, again openly on a mail. I discuss both issues with him last week and discussed the in detail. He understands the position now. It’s as if my chalice is being poisoned.

It’s as if I’m being set up for a fall. He told me she cannot discuss what the catch up is about.

So nothing out of the ordinary may happen - I may be made redundant cleanly or this is actually no bad news, but my gut is telling me to prepare for someone from HR rocking up via phone where I’ll be placed on a performance improvement plan, which will be the first step in a dismissal. That’s the way people are managed out at times.

So I’m looking for advice on how to prepare for this eventuality. Any advice line I can ring? Should I get an employment solicitor to guide me through certain do’s and dont’s.

Giblet

nervousemployee wrote: »

I’ve been a very loyal staff member of a large multinational for about 15 years.

Every year I have done very well in performance reviews and have never had any issues with successive managers. The last three years, my performance has been rexognised as going above and beyond. My mid year has been very solid this year.

Fast forward to now. My manager is flying over to have a “chat” with me. There is a new line of managers over him and I’m pretty sure my role is going to be made redundant during the conversation. It’s something that many on my side of the business could expect given the changes in how we operate and if that is the case, so be it. That doesn’t concern me.

Here’s the thing. I’m very wary that something is going to be pulled on that day to stop me getting a redundancy. I have had the feeling over the last 6 weeks that there is something not right. My manager is openly blaming me on a call for a project not being done when I specifically told him twice via mail and during conversation that we were on track. He also alluded that I was responsible for not getting a monthly report done when in fact he knows it’s not my responsibility, again openly on a mail. I discuss both issues with him last week and discussed the in detail. He understands the position now. It’s as if my chalice is being poisoned.

It’s as if I’m being set up for a fall. He told me she cannot discuss what the catch up is about.

So nothing out of the ordinary may happen - I may be made redundant cleanly or this is actually no bad news, but my gut is telling me to prepare for someone from HR rocking up via phone where I’ll be placed on a performance improvement plan, which will be the first step in a dismissal. That’s the way people are managed out at times.

So I’m looking for advice on how to prepare for this eventuality. Any advice line I can ring? Should I get an employment solicitor to guide me through certain do’s and dont’s.

Print off any and all emails now.

Springfields

nervousemployee wrote: »

I’ve been a very loyal staff member of a large multinational for about 15 years.

Every year I have done very well in performance reviews and have never had any issues with successive managers. The last three years, my performance has been rexognised as going above and beyond. My mid year has been very solid this year.

Fast forward to now. My manager is flying over to have a “chat” with me. There is a new line of managers over him and I’m pretty sure my role is going to be made redundant during the conversation. It’s something that many on my side of the business could expect given the changes in how we operate and if that is the case, so be it. That doesn’t concern me.

Here’s the thing. I’m very wary that something is going to be pulled on that day to stop me getting a redundancy. I have had the feeling over the last 6 weeks that there is something not right. My manager is openly blaming me on a call for a project not being done when I specifically told him twice via mail and during conversation that we were on track. He also alluded that I was responsible for not getting a monthly report done when in fact he knows it’s not my responsibility, again openly on a mail. I discuss both issues with him last week and discussed the in detail. He understands the position now. It’s as if my chalice is being poisoned.

It’s as if I’m being set up for a fall. He told me she cannot discuss what the catch up is about.

So nothing out of the ordinary may happen - I may be made redundant cleanly or this is actually no bad news, but my gut is telling me to prepare for someone from HR rocking up via phone where I’ll be placed on a performance improvement plan, which will be the first step in a dismissal. That’s the way people are managed out at times.

So I’m looking for advice on how to prepare for this eventuality. Any advice line I can ring? Should I get an employment solicitor to guide me through certain do’s and dont’s.

Dont think a solicitor will be able to advise until the company have actually taken a step towards disciplinary route....
They cant pre empt wrong doing ..
Sounds like they have no reason or evidence to go down this road.
And you have plenty of.evidence in your favour. Continue to put everything on email and print as you go.
Hopefully you have nothing to worry about but just in case you will need your facts
Good luck with the meeting
If it starts going down disciplinary route as for a witness to be present.

skallywag

I agree that it sounds like something serious will be discussed such as redundancy or a major change of role, etc.

That said, why would you think that they would be out to shaft you? Has this happened to other long term employees before?

Making a long term employee redundant is never an easy thing to do, and unless you have done something to seriously piss someone off then I do not logically see why they would not give you what you are entitled to. You mention that it is a large company, so it is not the case I would imagine that cash is an issue, as it could be at e.g. a small company.

LegacyUser

skallywag wrote: »

I agree that it sounds like something serious will be discussed such as redundancy or a major change of role, etc.

That said, why would you think that they would be out to shaft you? Has this happened to other long term employees before?

Making a long term employee redundant is never an easy thing to do, and unless you have done something to seriously piss someone off then I do not logically see why they would not give you what you are entitled to. You mention that it is a large company, so it is not the case I would imagine that cash is an issue, as it could be at e.g. a small company.

I was asked to work someone until they drop dead or quit by a previous manager so they didn't have to pay him a redundancy. Thankfully I moved out of that reporting line a few years back but my manager now reports to that reporting line so nothing is off the table in terms of what could happen.

Strumms

Giblet wrote: »

Print off any and all emails now.

Email them to your private email.

TheWonderLlama

Do not do that.

That is most likely a breach of contract.

skallywag

TheWonderLlama wrote: »

Do not do that.

That is most likely a breach of contract.

Big +1 on that, this could most certainly be grounds for instant dismissal, and rightly so.

Strumms

TheWonderLlama wrote: »

Do not do that.

That is most likely a breach of contract.

I doubt it would be, they are emails to you, about you and your position. Person related as opposed to ‘job’ or company related.

I’ve kept certain work emails that directly related to me backed up on my gmail in a ‘work’ folder.... pension stuff, travel expenses, all e-payslips, in fact the pension rep even recommended we keep the pension stuff documented at home.

fritzelly

Do nothing until something happens
You may be just reading something into nothing, could be your manager is for the chop and trying to lay blame on you
At 15 years you have plenty of rights
Worse comes you can then goto the WRC

nogoodnamesleft

TheWonderLlama wrote: »

Do not do that.

That is most likely a breach of contract.

If it's a laptop, the mail will be cached in outlook. Could take a virtual image using Acronis of the laptop with the evidence.

emeldc

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

If it's a laptop, the mail will be cached in outlook. Could take a virtual image using Acronis of the laptop with the evidence.

Or he could be just reading it wrong and he's about to get a promotion :rolleyes:

bullpost

If the worst happens you need to be prepared and have a strategy to deal with it.
In some companies the HR dept. are in dread of a date with the WRC and will do anything to avoid.

So if you go on a PIP, meet with HR and in a subtle way point out your exemplary performance record to date and that you are very concerned about recent developments and mention the last thing you want is to have to revert to WRC as you see yourself as a loyal and valuable employee dadadada....

If they see you are in possession of this type of info, you may find an offer of redundancy on the way.

nogoodnamesleft

emeldc wrote: »

Or he could be just reading it wrong and he's about to get a promotion :rolleyes:

Or the OP isn't and he is simply protecting his interests. Worst case he has the background to his loyalty and commitment to the company/role and best case he has a backup of his laptop.

BillyBird

Looks like you'd be entitled to statutory redundancy of 31 (2x15 +1) weeks pay to to a max of €600 per week. €18k. You'd know yourself whether this is the kind of sum your company would risk an unfair dismissal case over. Also don't know if your company has something in place over and above the statutory requirement.



Only advice I'd give you at this point is to make a record of everything - performance reviews to date, bonus, salary raises, points at which your manager made comments on your performance, points at which your corrected those comments (with as much detail as possible). Dates, content, etc. Personally I'd be printing all of this out and keeping at home. Will be much easier to do now.


Other thing you might look into is what your contact says about disciplinary meetings/being put on a PIP e.g. are you entitled to bring a colleague with you, are you entitles to notice ahead of the meeting if it is a PIP, etc.


Once you know what's happening you can take a view on an employment lawyer.

emeldc

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

Or the OP isn't and he is simply protecting his interests. Worst case he has the background to his loyalty and commitment to the company/role and best case he has a backup of his laptop.

My remark was tongue in cheek. But in all honesty could he not just print off the relevant emails and keep a hard copy instead of getting into the 'virtual imaging' stuff.

nogoodnamesleft

emeldc wrote: »

My remark was tongue in cheek. But in all honesty could he not just print off the relevant emails and keep a hard copy instead of getting into the 'virtual imaging' stuff.

With the email data you will also have header information, read receipts, cc lists, positions in the company attachments, etc etc. Over a career of 15 years that's a lot of info to print. If he also prints that volume of info at work it may raise suspicion via the print queue, volume or content.

Boot from C.D with a imaging tool, take a virtual image saved onto an external hard disk, leave it for a few hours. Job done rather than the time taken to print or invariably forgetting something.

TheWonderLlama

copying or removing digital data from a company's computer is normally a breach of contract and you can be summarily dismissed for that.

You really think IT wouldn't notice someone imaging a computer?

beauf

You hardly need all your emails. You'll only want a few that illustrate the issue.

nogoodnamesleft

TheWonderLlama wrote: »

copying or removing digital data from a company's computer is normally a breach of contract and you can be summarily dismissed for that.

You really think IT wouldn't notice someone imaging a computer?

If the worst come to the worst and the employee I going to be dismissed regardless anyways under some engineered means to not pay redundancy then what's the difference.

Be best to wait until what happens in the meeting. If there is dismissal on the cards usually the laptop/ID card will be returned on the last day of work..by then the data would be obtained to protect the employees position.

LWS

See who shows up on meeting day. Ask for it to be minuted. Ask to bring a rep. Ensure you get a copy of the minutes of the meeting. At the end of the meeting - if it is not 'good' - ask for your manager to confirm that you have been there 15 years, that you have had exemplary record, that you have confirmed that project was on track by email on xxx dates, that you have no responsibility for report x as set out on xxxx email.etc Have it all minuted, ask for a copy. Also if they are really being assh**es then also say that you felt the way this meeting was organised together with the recent accusations of less that adequate job fulfillment has left you feeling very stressed and not sleeping lately etc and that you may need to go to the doctor about it!!!!! Frighten the beeejjaazzusss outta them😂 good luck - hope it doesnt end up like this but always better to be prepared to fight if needs be..

Mrs OBumble

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

Be best to wait until what happens in the meeting. If there is dismissal on the cards usually the laptop/ID card will be returned on the last day of work..by then the data would be obtained to protect the employees position.

If there is a dismissal on the cards, expect to hand in your laptop immediately after the meeting and to be walked off the premises immediately.

alias no.9

Summary dismissal is reserved for instances of gross misconduct. It is not a remedy for performance issues, real or contrived, without going through some kind of performance improvement plan, verbal warning(s) and written warning(s).

dreamers75

1: Buy diary
2: Write all of the above issues in the diary specific to the dates. Make each day a summary of notes/minutes put in as much as you remember.
3. Print off emails place into specific dates in diary.
4. Await meeting.


I would imagine redundancy is coming, can be costly and time consuming to "manage" someone out of the buisness. They also get a rebate if your are made redundant.

DellyBelly

Sounds like it is not a nice place to work. Would you look for something else and maybe leave the job asap. Sounds like it is stressing you out. That's what I would do in your position

Fingerbang2

Print of all emails and also all your performance reviews which will be the most important.

I don’t think the company will dismiss you but probably chancing their arm that if they give you a load of crap you will start looking for another role and hence no redundancy.

Just stick it out for the minute

skallywag

I can only repeat what I said in my previous post, but it is not at all normal to want to make a long term employee redundant without paying them what is due to them. It is a dreadful thing to have to do, but it is the sad reality that some roles do indeed become redundant and long term folk need to be cut. That said, in the far majority of cases the company will gladly pay out what is due.

The only reasons that I can think of that the company will not want to pay out will be when the company simply cannot afford it (small operation, not the case here) or the person has very seriously pissed someone off.

As the OP does not seem to have done so then I would be willing to bet that the payout itself is not in question.

bullpost

skallywag wrote: »

I can only repeat what I said in my previous post, but it is not at all normal to want to make a long term employee redundant without paying them what is due to them. It is a dreadful thing to have to do, but it is the sad reality that some roles do indeed become redundant and long term folk need to be cut. That said, in the far majority of cases the company will gladly pay out what is due.

The only reasons that I can think of that the company will not want to pay out will be when the company simply cannot afford it (small operation, not the case here) or the person has very seriously pissed someone off.

As the OP does not seem to have done so then I would be willing to bet that the payout itself is not in question.

I have seen at least one situation of a new manager putting a long-serving employee who up to that point has a good performance record onto a PIP in order to bring in their own recruited employees, so its not always straightforward.

LegacyUser

Hi all,
Thanks for the advice.

It’s been a tough few days so apologies for not replying. The meeting was pretty straight forward but things going up the creek today after first consultation.

Every single employee that has gone through the door here has received 2 weeks statutory and 4 weeks per years service, uncapped as to length of service.

They are offering me a sum that is essentially 2 weeks statutory and then about a week extra per year. Basically it looks like they are paying me extra the difference between my weekly wage and the weekly cap of 600 that is on the statutory.

To say I’m let down and hurt is a massive understatement

AaronMan

Is it perhaps the case that several candidates, including your boss, could be made redundant, so he is doing this in order to support the case why it is you that should be made redundant, instead of him or somebody else?

Either way, as others have advised, print relevant emails and keep a log of events in case you do need to defend yourself against what you are worried about. Someone made a suggestion to leave this job due to amount of stress - For time being, I disagree with this, as you could get a lot of money if you are really made redundant after 15 years in the company.

P.S. I have a friend who was made redundant: After it was announced, he was also getting nervous and worried that the company might 'trick' him somehow instead of paying what's due (as there is a statutory redundancy + what the company is paying for). Of course, none of it happened - it was also multinational company, so you'd expect some standards from them, and he was very happy afterwards - got a new job quickly enough.

turbot

Follow your instincts and .
Keep a diary - a paper one - write one down now - including recent events.
Make a checklist of points to handle in each call / interaction and be thorough - so you can defend yourself.
Get a paper trail - to very politely inquire about any discrepancies - assuming the best in others but written to cover yourself.
E.g. Ask about why you were called out - assume an innocent misunderstanding - ask if things are changing how can you do them right.
Find a way to go above and beyond soon... create counter-argument fuel. Read around / study this area a lot.

If something seems "off" - consider asking for clarity / support - in a way that gives you a paper trail to rely on later if you need it. E.g. write to your HR manager - express how you're confused by some of this behaviour. that wrong footed you - ask if you haven't received some key communications / that you're acting off wrong assumptions etc.

Good luck!

storker

Also, rehearse the meeting in your mind several times. Try to anticipate the worst things that you think might be said to you and have your responses and reactions ready, so that you're less likely to be dumbstruck or let your emotions take over if thrown a curve-ball. If you have the moral high-ground, make sure you react in a way that keeps you there. Remain calm no matter what, in case someone is deliberately trying to provoke you. In such circumstances, remaining calm can make the other person lose the rag instead. Have you evidence to hand, and post-it marked or whatever so you can go straight to the relevant bit. Make it look like you have your sh1t together, and that they're the ones making it up as they go along. Let your professionalism stand in stark contrast to their chicanery (assuming that's what's going on).

skallywag

bullpost wrote: »

I have seen at least one situation of a new manager putting a long-serving employee who up to that point has a good performance record onto a PIP in order to bring in their own recruited employees, so its not always straightforward.

I get your point, this does happen, I have also seen it. I have never seen such a case though where the long term employee would have been shafted with redundancy payments that were due when they were finally let go, which I think is the OP's main concern.

devnull

alias no.9 wrote: »

Summary dismissal is reserved for instances of gross misconduct. It is not a remedy for performance issues, real or contrived, without going through some kind of performance improvement plan, verbal warning(s) and written warning(s).

You will never have a meeting scheduled days in advance, of which the purpose of is to be fired there and then, since they would be in a bad place to defend any unfair dismissal claim, since an employment law expert will simply argue that if the act was so serious to warrant summary dismissal, then it wouldn't have took them a few days to do so, thus completely undermining their action.

bullpost wrote: »

I have seen at least one situation of a new manager putting a long-serving employee who up to that point has a good performance record onto a PIP in order to bring in their own recruited employees, so its not always straightforward.

Yes, this can and does happen, I've seen it happen to others and it happened to me as well. Fortunately I have a solicitor with employment law experience in my extended family so a 9 month campaign of trying to force me out through every trick in the book didn't work and in the end I was asked how much money I wanted to leave, asked for an amount, pulled out at the last minute and asked for a little more, got it and spent the next 9 months living off the settlement.

There's also a type of manager who doesn't like it if someone in their department is very popular within it as they have to be top dog so instead they will spend their whole time trying to undermine said person and going through everything they do with a fine tooth comb to try and find something against them and then claim they found it during a random audit.

LegacyUser

JUST TO STATE THAT I AM NO LONGER CONCERNED ABOUT A REASON FOR GETTING FIRED, MORE THE FACT I AM BEING TREATED EXTREMELY UNFAVOURABLY COMPARED TO EVERY OTHER IRISH EMPLOYEE WHO WAS EVER MADE REDUNDANT.

I think I have some grounds so am currently working through that process.

skallywag

OP. are you certain now that they are trying to fire you without having to pay redundancy, or is it still all conjecture at the moment?

Guffy

Nervousemployee wrote: »

Hi all,
Thanks for the advice.

It’s been a tough few days so apologies for not replying. The meeting was pretty straight forward but things going up the creek today after first consultation.

Every single employee that has gone through the door here has received 2 weeks statutory and 4 weeks per years service, uncapped as to length of service.

They are offering me a sum that is essentially 2 weeks statutory and then about a week extra per year. Basically it looks like they are paying me extra the difference between my weekly wage and the weekly cap of 600 that is on the statutory.

To say I’m let down and hurt is a massive understatement

I think people missed this post.

skallywag

Guffy wrote: »

I think people missed this post.

Yes, I certainly did for some reason. Did it just appear now or something?

OP, why do you think that they are offering you less than your redundancy entitlement? What justification was given?

RebelButtMunch

Tough luck man.
I've seen it in a previous role
First people to be made redundant Lump+statutory + 6 weeks per year uncapped
Few years later Lump+statutory + 6 weeks per year capped at 10 years
Next time, Lump+statutory + 4 weeks per year capped at 5 years

Not much you can do about it I think

Victor

TheWonderLlama wrote: »

Do not do that.

That is most likely a breach of contract.

It provides a reason to discipline you and the evidence.

high_king

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

Tough luck man.
I've seen it in a previous role
First people to be made redundant Lump+statutory + 6 weeks per year uncapped
Few years later Lump+statutory + 6 weeks per year capped at 10 years
Next time, Lump+statutory + 4 weeks per year capped at 5 years

Not much you can do about it I think

That chimes with a lot of people's experience . . the first Voluntary Redundancy offer is usually the best one to go for.

Also contrary to HR style thinking, it's very often some of the best employees, who can easily find work somewhere else . . that are usually the first to grab it.

TheDoc

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

With the email data you will also have header information, read receipts, cc lists, positions in the company attachments, etc etc. Over a career of 15 years that's a lot of info to print. If he also prints that volume of info at work it may raise suspicion via the print queue, volume or content.

Boot from C.D with a imaging tool, take a virtual image saved onto an external hard disk, leave it for a few hours. Job done rather than the time taken to print or invariably forgetting something.

This is dreadful advice. Arranging non sanctioned images or backups of company data is a serious issue and grounds for dismissal and in cases legal discourse.

You don’t own your work email , your company does along with all information within and you retain no rights to it or ownership.

RebelButtMunch

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

Tough luck man.
I've seen it in a previous role
First people to be made redundant Lump+statutory + 6 weeks per year uncapped
Few years later Lump+statutory + 6 weeks per year capped at 10 years
Next time, Lump+statutory + 4 weeks per year capped at 5 years

Not much you can do about it I think

Yes, it usually gets worse towards the end of the business in a particular area, because near the end they don't really care about the employee, they've managed around them.


But, it's a good jobs market out there, OP. Chin up.

high_king

high_king wrote: »

Also contrary to HR style thinking, it's often some of the best employees, who can easily find work somewhere else . . that are usually the first to grab it.

Contrary to what thinking? Everybody knows this to be fair, and not just in redundancy situations.

high_king

Deleted User wrote: »

Contrary to what thinking? Everybody knows this to be fair, and not just in redundancy situations.

This isn't true, many HR types I've talked to often think they are going to get rid of the wasters with a voluntary redundancy scheme.

high_king

high_king wrote: »

This isn't true, many HR types I've talked to often think they are going to get rid of the wasters with a voluntary redundancy scheme.

I think you might be a tad biased. Anyone in HR longer than a fine day knows that it's the most capable that are the most mobile and therefore the most likely to leave redundancy or not.



We know it, and so do HR professionals.

high_king

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you might be a tad biased. Anyone in HR longer than a fine day knows that it's the most capable that are the most mobile and therefore the most likely to leave redundancy or not.

We know it, and so do HR professionals.

Facts are not bias. I've heard this false claim about redundancy many times from so called HR professional and managers.
Who is this "we" you claim to speak for / represent ?

high_king

high_king wrote: »

Facts are not bias. I've heard this false claim about redundancy many times from so called HR professional and managers.
Who is this "we" you claim to speak for / represent ?

Anecdotes may be facts to you, but not so to anyone else.

But, perhaps you're right, and you and I and any one else I know are smarter than the HR professionals. Maybe.

high_king

Deleted User wrote: »

Anecdotes may be facts to you, but not so to anyone else.

But, perhaps you're right, and you and I and any one else I know are smarter than the HR professionals. Maybe.

Actual HR people, events and reality are not "Anecdotes", and it's got nothing to do with "smarter"