7-year-old trick-or-treater shot in Chicago

nkl12xtw5goz70

A 7-year-old girl wearing a bumblebee costume was shot in Chicago while trick-or-treating on Halloween. EDIT: She is not dead, but is currently in critical condition in hospital.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/01/us/chicago-shooting-halloween.html

Stories like this make me despair.

I've gone back and forth over the Second Amendment, but it's really time to repeal it and implement proper gun control legislation.

suicide_circus

https://graphics.suntimes.com/homicides/

Tired Gardener

Well that's grim, no doubt we'll just see bullet proof Halloween costumes next year as the 'solution', we've already seen bullet proof school backpacks in response to school shootings.

I really wish the USA would just revoke the 2nd amendment... it has cost so many lives.

Wanderer78

Itzel Breezy Abalone wrote:

I've gone back and forth over the Second Amendment, but it's really time to repeal it and implement proper gun control legislation.

That's a fairly disturbing story, but then again, all American gun related stories are, and I can't see it changing, it's too complex, and the forces keeping the status quo are immense. Rip little girl

Thelonious Monk

Honestly it's hard to give a sh*t. They will never change.

Wanderer78

Thelonious Monk wrote:

Honestly it's hard to give a sh*t. They will never change.

Many Americans truly do, as you can see from the op's response, it's an immense problem in their society

Pinch Flat

Some clown from the NRA will come out and say her parents should have been armed and shoot back. America really does have a warped relationship with the gun.

BDI

How many of these guns are legally owned licensed firearms. Gangs shooting up streets at each other don’t tend to care if guns are legal or not.
May as well ban cigarettes and booze. Shutting the gate after the horse bolted I’d say.

antodeco

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Rip little girl

She didn't die, and let's hope she doesn't.

everlast75

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Honestly it's hard to give a sh*t. They will never change.

1) why would you not give a sh*t that a kid was shot???

2) there is overwhelming public support for gun control. The Senate won't pass it. The problem is with the politicians.

3) again - wtf with saying you don't give a sh*t about a kid dying?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Can somebody post the story here for those who don't have accounts with that link?

antodeco

Jenna Thoughtless Tattoo wrote: »

Can somebody post the story here for those who don't have accounts with that link?

Should work without an account. Worked fine for me!

nkl12xtw5goz70

Jenna Thoughtless Tattoo wrote: »

Can somebody post the story here for those who don't have accounts with that link?

Here's the CNN story, which I don't think requires a sign-in.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/01/us/seven-year-old-shot-trick-or-treating/index.html

To clarify, the girl is not dead, but is in critical condition in hospital after being shot in the neck.

biko

.

...the masked gunman fired a spray of bullets in the direction of a gang rival on the city’s West Side..

Struck in the chest as she walked by was the girl

Little Village, a pocket of Chicago that heavily draws immigrants from Mexico, is known for its streets lined with bakeries, dollar stores and shops with quinceañera dresses in the windows. The community has also experienced decades of gang battles that sometimes erupt into violence.

It was along one of those busy commercial strips that the shooting took place on Thursday, as children went store to store collecting goodies before dinner.

I think Chicago needs to do more than simply try to ban guns.
Tackling gangs and poverty in immigrant areas to start.

ancapailldorcha

Itzel Breezy Abalone wrote: »

I've gone back and forth over the Second Amendment, but it's really time to repeal it and implement proper gun control legislation.

Never thought I'd hear this from you, P. Fair play though. I've read reasonable arguments on Boards and elsewhere against repeal but I find really horrifying and depressing is the repeated poisoning of the debate on gun control that seems to occur in the US every time something horrible like this happens.

nkl12xtw5goz70

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Never thought I'd hear this from you, P. Fair play though. I've read reasonable arguments on Boards and elsewhere against repeal but I find really horrifying and depressing is the repeated poisoning of the debate on gun control that seems to occur in the US every time something horrible like this happens.

Agreed.

Those who strongly support individual liberty often also support unqualified Second Amendment rights. As the Libertarian Party puts it: "We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition."

But I don't believe this absolutist stance is tenable any longer. The US needs to balance the legitimate right to self-defense against the equally legitimate right of innocent people to be free from arbitrary violence — and as guns become ever more deadly, with high-capacity magazines letting shooters fire off dozens of rounds, the law should allow regulation in the interest of public safety.

RandomName2

BDI wrote: »

How many of these guns are legally owned licensed firearms. Gangs shooting up streets at each other don’t tend to care if guns are legal or not.
May as well ban cigarettes and booze. Shutting the gate after the horse bolted I’d say.

+1

You'd have to make sure that illegal firearms were virtually non-existent before you could do away with all legal firearms. That seems like a pretty tall order.

joseywhales

RandomName2 wrote: »

+1

You'd have to make sure that illegal firearms were virtually non-existent before you could do away with all legal firearms. That seems like a pretty tall order.

Not really, if all guns are illegal, it is much easier to enforce , no checking for licenses etc, if there is credible evidence for a warrant to search your home and a gun is found, a heavy conviction follows. The guns would dissapear fast. Even if people still have some hidden, they will never risk carrying.

ArnoldJRimmer

Another excuse for Fox News/ the right wing media to spin the line of 'Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the country, and look at the level of gun crime there. Therefore, gun control only makes the problem worse.' While conveniently ignoring that south Chicago is about a 20 minute drive from the next state where you can get as many guns as you want.

Its not just the politicians holding this back, there are a ton of people in the US who resist any kind of gun control. And they don't give a sh!t about the consequences for society. 'But I'm a responsible gun owner.' Whoop dee fcuking doo, I'm sure thats a lot of comfort for this girls parents

ILoveYourVibes

I am surprised American parents allow their kids to trick or treat over there considering all their neighbours have guns and secondly and most importantly ...ALL THEIR NEIGHBOURS ARE AMERICANS!

MadYaker

The land of opportunity!

hatrickpatrick

Itzel Breezy Abalone wrote: »

I've gone back and forth over the Second Amendment, but it's really time to repeal it and implement proper gun control legislation.

Does it even need to be repealed, or is it more a case that it needs to be interpreted correctly? The amendment calls for "a well organised militia" in affirming the right of the people to bear arms, the suggestion that this actually implies that every tom, dick and harry should be allowed to bear arms for any reason is, I would have thought, a massive stretch.

ceadaoin.

joseywhales wrote: »

Not really, if all guns are illegal, it is much easier to enforce , no checking for licenses etc, if there is credible evidence for a warrant to search your home and a gun is found, a heavy conviction follows. The guns would dissapear fast. Even if people still have some hidden, they will never risk carrying.

Some people have legitimate reasons to own guns. Hunters, ranchers etc. Making them all illegal wouldn't work. Do you want a civil war? Because that would be how you get one. Most people just dont want the second amendment repealed. There must be a middle ground.

There are hundreds of millions of legally owned firearms in the US and probably the same amount of illegal ones. They arent just going to disappear.

Guy:Incognito

This isnt a 2nd amendment issue at all. It's a gang issue.

I highly doubt 2 gangs are shooting at each other in the streets with guns legally registered in their names.

Gangs here have illegal guns too.

Of all the cases that could be used to complain about average people having the ability to own guns, this isnt one.

BattleCorp

everlast75 wrote: »

1) why would you not give a sh*t that a kid was shot???

2) there is overwhelming public support for gun control. The Senate won't pass it. The problem is with the politicians.

3) again - wtf with saying you don't give a sh*t about a kid dying?

Two questions.

1. What do you mean by gun control? Honest question.
2. If you mean banning guns, there is no way in the wide earthly world that most Americans want guns to be banned so what makes you think there is support for that type of gun control?

Boggles

BattleCorp wrote: »

Two questions.

1. What do you mean by gun control? Honest question.
2. If you mean banning guns, there is no way in the wide earthly world that most Americans want guns to be banned so what makes you think there is support for that type of gun control?

Most Americans don't own guns.

facehugger99

Itzel Breezy Abalone wrote: »

Stories like this make me despair.

Maybe stop reading/posting about them so.

What are you hoping to achieve as an Irish person?

BattleCorp

Boggles wrote: »

Most Americans don't own guns.

That doesn't mean that as non-gun owners they support all guns being banned.

notobtuse

Itzel Breezy Abalone wrote: »

A 7-year-old girl wearing a bumblebee costume was shot in Chicago while trick-or-treating on Halloween. EDIT: She is not dead, but is currently in critical condition in hospital.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/01/us/chicago-shooting-halloween.html

Stories like this make me despair.

I've gone back and forth over the Second Amendment, but it's really time to repeal it and implement proper gun control legislation.

Chicago already has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation. Unfortunately, criminals and gangs don’t seem to be very concerned with the laws.

Boggles

BattleCorp wrote: »

That doesn't mean that as non-gun owners they support all guns being banned.

I don't know anyone is suggesting to ban all guns, it's about stricter gun controls, and yes the majority of Americans support it according to various polls and actually enacted laws.

There is a myth that Americans are gun nuts, it's not true. The majority are not gun owners.

A sizable amount are gun owners, but the NRA "only" has around 5 million members.

ArnoldJRimmer

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

Another excuse for Fox News/ the right wing media to spin the line of 'Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the country, and look at the level of gun crime there. Therefore, gun control only makes the problem worse.' While conveniently ignoring that south Chicago is about a 20 minute drive from the next state where you can get as many guns as you want.

Its not just the politicians holding this back, there are a ton of people in the US who resist any kind of gun control. And they don't give a sh!t about the consequences for society. 'But I'm a responsible gun owner.' Whoop dee fcuking doo, I'm sure thats a lot of comfort for this girls parents

notobtuse wrote: »

Chicago already has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation. Unfortunately, criminals and gangs don’t seem to be very concerned with the laws.

Please refer to the above post, strict gun laws mean nothing unless its nationwide

looksee

Boggles wrote: »

Most Americans don't own guns.

Have you any source for that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country#cite_note-6 shows that there are 120 guns per 100 people in the USA. Granted that some people will own multiple guns, but that is true in other countries too, hunters and weapons enthusiast will have several/an arsenal, but still the number of guns in, for example, Ireland is 7 per hundred people.

Edit - ok https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx this poll says 30% of adults own guns.

jimmycrackcorm

Boggles wrote: »

I don't know anyone is suggesting to ban all guns, it's about stricter gun controls, and yes the majority of Americans support it according to various polls and actually enacted laws.

There is a myth that Americans are gun nuts, it's not true. The majority are not gun owners.

A sizable amount are gun owners, but the NRA "only" has around 5 million members.

5 million members yet there are over 270m guns in the US.

notobtuse

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

Please refer to the above post, strict gun laws mean nothing unless its nationwide

I read it and it’s nonsense. Do you actually believe criminals and gangs are driving 20 miles across state lines to LEGALLY buy the guns they use in crimes? Do you not realize every handgun purchased legally includes a spent casing because the FBI has that bullet fired from the handgun on file in order to trace it back to the owner if a match comes up involved in a crime?

Boggles

looksee wrote: »

Have you any source for that?

Multiple.

Here is the latest one I can find.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/22/facts-about-guns-in-united-states/

looksee wrote: »

Granted that some people will own multiple guns,

Yeah, it's pretty nuts, 2 thirds of gun owners own more than one roughly a third of gun owners in America own 5 or more weapons.

America certainly has a large amount of gun nuts, but the majority of the country and households in the country do not have guns.

notobtuse

Boggles wrote: »

Multiple.

Here is the latest one I can find.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/22/facts-about-guns-in-united-states/



Yeah, it's pretty nuts, 2 thirds of gun owners own more than one roughly a third of gun owners in America own 5 or more weapons.

America certainly has a large amount of gun nuts, but the majority of the country and households in the country do not have guns.

Eight stubborn about gun violence in the US...

• Violent crime is down and has been on the decline for decades.
• The principal public safety concerns with respect to guns are suicides and illegally owned handguns, not mass shootings.
• A small number of factors significantly increase the likelihood that a person will be a victim of a gun-related homicide.
• Gun-related murders are carried out by a predictable pool of people.
• Higher rates of gun ownership are not associated with higher rates of violent crime.
• There is no clear relationship between strict gun control legislation and homicide or violent crime rates.
• Legally owned firearms are used for lawful purposes much more often than they are used to commit crimes or suicide.
• Concealed carry permit holders are not the problem, but they may be part of the solution.

Boggles

notobtuse wrote: »

Eight stubborn about gun violence in the US...

[/LIST]

Could you link where you got the data please?

I'm not saying it is inaccurate I just don't read copy and pastes without the source.

BattleCorp

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

5 million members yet there are over 270m guns in the US.

You can own a gun in the US and not be a member of the NRA.

You can actually be a gun owner in the US and disagree with the policies of the NRA. This is quite common.

They actually don't have a clue about how many guns are in the US. There is approximately 400m guns that they know about. Quite possibly there are over 100m more that they don't know about.

notobtuse

Boggles wrote: »

Could you link where you got the data please?

I'm not saying it is inaccurate I just don't read copy and pastes without the source.

Sure...

https://www.heritage.org/crime-and-justice/commentary/here-are-8-stubborn-facts-gun-violence-america

ArnoldJRimmer

notobtuse wrote: »

I read it and it’s nonsense. Do you actually believe criminals and gangs are driving 20 miles across state lines to LEGALLY buy the guns they use in crimes? Do you not realize every handgun purchased legally includes a spent casing because the FBI has that bullet fired from the handgun on file in order to trace it back to the owner if a match comes up involved in a crime?

Are you suggesting that Chicago gangs obtain guns illegally all within Chicago city limits? That they also maybe make them there?

notobtuse

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Chicago gangs obtain guns illegally all within Chicago city limits? That they also maybe make them there?

Not at all. I'm suggesting criminals and gang members don't make it a habit of obtaining their guns legally.

ArnoldJRimmer

notobtuse wrote: »

Not at all. I'm suggesting criminals and gang members don't make it a habit of obtaining their guns legally.

Yes, I know, and I never stated that they'd just wander into a Walmart in Indiana to obtain them. But there are open borders linking them to the other 47 contiguous states, a lot of which have extremely lax laws on gun ownership, and actively encourage it. You could have a blanket ban on guns in Chicago, but it wouldn't make any difference

notobtuse

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

Yes, I know, and I never stated that they'd just wander into a Walmart in Indiana to obtain them. But there are open borders linking them to the other 47 contiguous states, a lot of which have extremely lax laws on gun ownership, and actively encourage it. You could have a blanket ban on guns in Chicago, but it wouldn't make any difference

I keep hearing that tired old phrase ‘extremely lax laws on gun ownership.’ It's untrue. I own 5 legally obtained firearms. There is no 'extremely lax laws on gun ownership' anywhere in the US.

ArnoldJRimmer

notobtuse wrote: »

I keep hearing that tired old phrase ‘extremely lax laws on gun ownership.’ It's untrue. I own 5 legally obtained firearms. There is no 'extremely lax laws on gun ownership' anywhere in the US.

But they clearly are very lax given the abundance of unstable individuals and irresponsible parents who own guns. And even if you had to jump through hoops to obtain your firearms legally, if they continually find their way into the hands of people who shouldn't have them, the laws are clearly ineffective, and/ or are not being enforced, hence 'extremely lax'

joseywhales

I think we are missing the point of why guns should be at least highly controlled. It's not about how prevalent gun owner ship is or whether people want to have guns, it's about why they should have guns and for what purpose?

If an intruder comes on your property and they are armed as some criminals are with illegal arms, does possesion of a gun increase or decrease the possibility of harm to human life including your own? I would rather be tied up and beaten than be shot personally. And this is the only scenario a gun can be required(unless hunting or killing vermon) . You also have the risk of just storing it to everyone in the building.

Why do people require multiple guns? If I am a poison enthusiast, can I store and carry multiple poisons?

TeaBagMania

Tired Gardener wrote: »

I really wish the USA would just revoke the 2nd amendment... it has cost so many lives.

and it also saves lives

this pregnant mother killed TWO gun toting home invaders with her AR-15

wont find this story on CNN

https://nypost.com/2019/11/04/pregnant-florida-mom-uses-ar-15-to-kill-home-intruder/

notobtuse

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

But they clearly are very lax given the abundance of unstable individuals and irresponsible parents who own guns. And even if you had to jump through hoops to obtain your firearms legally, if they continually find their way into the hands of people who shouldn't have them, the laws are clearly ineffective, and/ or are not being enforced, hence 'extremely lax'

My firearms don't find their ways to people who shouldn't have them. They are locked in a secure gun case and each also has a trigger lock on them. I’d argue the lax laws have much more to do with the lack of punishment of people who should not have guns. The length of the rap sheets on people who commit gun crimes is atrocious and would make any sane person question how in the world these people remain on the streets.

Eric Cartman

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

This isnt a 2nd amendment issue at all. It's a gang issue.

I highly doubt 2 gangs are shooting at each other in the streets with guns legally registered in their names.

Gangs here have illegal guns too.

Of all the cases that could be used to complain about average people having the ability to own guns, this isnt one.

this is the problem. At this point with decades of weapons sales , the only thing gun control will do is stop innocent people protecting their families from criminals.

America has a huge problem with people in poor communities trying to solve their disputes with bullets. Chicagos demographic is pretty grim and puts it with detroit and baltimore for these unfortunate incidents.

Eric Cartman

notobtuse wrote: »

My firearms don't find their ways to people who shouldn't have them. They are locked in a secure gun case and each also has a trigger lock on them. I’d argue the lax laws have much more to do with the lack of punishment of people who should not have guns. The length of the rap sheets on people who commit gun crimes is atrocious and would make any sane person question how in the world these people remain on the streets.

expidited death penalty for carrying an unlicenced firearm if you have any violent or drug convictions would sort out some numbers pretty quick.

notobtuse

joseywhales wrote: »

I think we are missing the point of why guns should be at least highly controlled. It's not about how prevalent gun owner ship is or whether people want to have guns, it's about why they should have guns and for what purpose?

If an intruder comes on your property and they are armed as some criminals are with illegal arms, does possesion of a gun increase or decrease the possibility of harm to human life including your own? I would rather be tied up and beaten than be shot personally. And this is the only scenario a gun can be required(unless hunting or killing vermon) . You also have the risk of just storing it to everyone in the building.

Why do people require multiple guns? If I am a poison enthusiast, can I store and carry multiple poisons?

What guarantee is there the criminal will merely tie you up and not shoot you?

Our Constitution guarantees the Right to own guns. It has to do with protecting our liberties and hunting has nothing to do with it.

Each gun has a different use. You have the right tool for the job. One for ducks, pheasants, rabbits and clays. One for whitetail deer and black bear. One for self defense. One for small varmints and target practice because of the low cost of ammo. One as an investment because of it's historical importance. Etc, etc...

ArnoldJRimmer

notobtuse wrote: »

My firearms don't find their ways to people who shouldn't have them. They are locked in a secure gun case and each also has a trigger lock on them. I’d argue the lax laws have much more to do with the lack of punishment of people who should not have guns. The length of the rap sheets on people who commit gun crimes is atrocious and would make any sane person question how in the world these people remain on the streets.

Yep, you and the vast majority of gun owners in the country. And this argument comes up time and time again when someone even suggests a debate on it (not you personally, but from the pro gun movement in the US). The problem is that they are lethal weapons. And if even a fraction of the wrong people get hold of them, it has devastating consequences. The number of guns available, and who can own them has to be looked at and meaningful legislation brought in

I live in the US too, and I get the whole gun thing even if I would never contemplate owning one myself. Loads of people I know are gun enthusiasts, I've even been to a range a couple of times myself. But in my mind, we need to look at the common good and do whatever is possible to remove them from society. Because whatever is being done is not working. The NRA continually refusing to even allow a debate on this is counterproductive