Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

It's worth remembering that school education for the general public was basic and very much about teaching you where you were in the pecking order and who was in charge.
So it should come as no surprise that so many "working class" voted Tory or Liberal before 1945.

The education system prior to the 1980s was stratified so the wealthy went to Public Schools (like Eton and Harrow) - which were not the least bit public but extremely private and expensive. The next level was the Grammar School which required the pupil to pass the 11+ exam, which would lead onto university, for the gifted, but other high paid managerial or similar jobs. The rest went to a Secondary Modern school which did not lead to university but to early departure from school and on to dead end jobs, with the lucky ones getting apprenticeships. Those in areas with local big works, like mines, factories, or ship building would take up the type of job their fathers had.

That was how the class system was maintained. Thatcher tried to suppress voting by working class voters by attacking the unions, (putting Labour voters out of work or on lower wages) and by the Poll Tax (you only got on the register if you paid the tax. The tax was structured to be higher in Labour areas). Plus other schemes like selling off state assets to friends of the Tories at half price. (You had to have the cash to avail of the largess).

I still cannot understand how anyone of a working class background would vote Tory.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

The education system prior to the 1980s was stratified so the wealthy went to Public Schools (like Eton and Harrow) - which were not the least bit public but extremely private and expensive. The next level was the Grammar School which required the pupil to pass the 11+ exam, which would lead onto university, for the gifted, but other high paid managerial or similar jobs. The rest went to a Secondary Modern school which did not lead to university but to early departure from school and on to dead end jobs, with the lucky ones getting apprenticeships. Those in areas with local big works, like mines, factories, or ship building would take up the type of job their fathers had.

That was how the class system was maintained. Thatcher tried to suppress voting by working class voters by attacking the unions, (putting Labour voters out of work or on lower wages) and by the Poll Tax (you only got on the register if you paid the tax. The tax was structured to be higher in Labour areas). Plus other schemes like selling off state assets to friends of the Tories at half price. (You had to have the cash to avail of the largess).
I still cannot understand how anyone of a working class background would vote Tory.

Looking back via the rear view mirror, will give you a completely different viewpoint to that looking out the windscreen.
By the 1970s many in the UK were totally dismayed by Labour's handling of the economy, so many strikes that it was almost not newsworthy any more.

Many of the workers were fed up with constantly losing income due to others striking.

Thatcher promised they could buy their council houses cheaply. That was a trap as mortgage payers were at great risk of being made homeless if they went on strike.

It's easy to see why so many switched.

Reg education: 1980s, I was thinking more like 1930s and earlier, anyway, things like the 11+ were mostly gone by the 1970s

serfboard

Deleted User wrote: »

Looking back via the rear view mirror, will give you a completely different viewpoint to that looking out the windscreen.
By the 1970s many in the UK were totally dismayed by Labour's handling of the economy, so many strikes that it was almost not newsworthy any more.

Many of the workers were fed up with constantly losing income due to others striking.

A big reason for the Tories success in 1979 - the unions in some instances behaved disgracefully, and Labour were beholden to them so they couldn't do anything.

Deleted User wrote: »

Thatcher promised they could buy their council houses cheaply. That was a trap as mortgage payers were at great risk of being made homeless if they went on strike.

There was another great benefit to selling state assets to people - one thing that makes people switch from Labour to Tory is owning property. Once you become a property owner you look at things differently.

RobMc59

serfboard wrote: »

A big reason for the Tories success in 1979 - the unions in some instances behaved disgracefully, and Labour were beholden to them so they couldn't do anything.

There was another great benefit to selling state assets to people - one thing that makes people switch from Labour to Tory is owning property. Once you become a property owner you look at things differently.

True,but there's no affordable social housing for the people who can't afford to purchase now,its all private landlords.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

anyway, things like the 11+ were mostly gone by the 1970s

"mostly" ... except it still exists, and is still taken by children who want to get into the better secondary schools so that they've a chance of getting into one of the better universities.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Looking back via the rear view mirror, will give you a completely different viewpoint to that looking out the windscreen.
By the 1970s many in the UK were totally dismayed by Labour's handling of the economy, so many strikes that it was almost not newsworthy any more.

Many of the workers were fed up with constantly losing income due to others striking.

Thatcher promised they could buy their council houses cheaply. That was a trap as mortgage payers were at great risk of being made homeless if they went on strike.

It's easy to see why so many switched.

Reg education: 1980s, I was thinking more like 1930s and earlier, anyway, things like the 11+ were mostly gone by the 1970s

Labour were not much in power - ever. 1945 election gave Labour a poisoned chalice - a bankrupt country, bombed to bits. 1964 - Wilson took over a failing economy with a split Labour party infiltrated by communists intent on destroying British manufacturing. The 'three day week' was under Heath - a true blue Tory (well, Grammar School Tory so not so True Blue). I would not count Blair as he was not true Labour - New Labour was more Tory light.

It was not until the UK joined the EEC that the economy started to recover, but prolonged strikes (the Winter of Discontent) did allow the Tories back in with the ultra right wing Thatcher intent on smashing the unions, and removing the NHS - successful in the first but not in the second.

Of course having a nearly wholly Tory press did help them make Labour unelectable.

You could add the oil price shock in 1973 into the mix, it caused massive inflation globally, enough to unhinge many a weak government.

serfboard

RobMc59 wrote: »

True,but there's no affordable social housing for the people who can't afford to purchase now,its all private landlords.

It's the same here though too. When was the last time we built social housing in Ireland? We've copied the British model, but at least we responded at the last election to that carry on.

In general, selling off social housing is not a good thing to do. Nor a lot of other state assets either ...

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Ok. Back on topic please.

ancapailldorcha

Post with insult deleted.

Leroy42

It turns out the UK could have taken part in the EU procurement initiative, and were even invited to do so. They are allowed as during the transition they are still part of the EU. And being part of that procurement did not stop them doing their own procurement, as other countries are also doing, it was an extra.

But for some reason, not yet explained bu HMG apart from the initial claim they had never seen the e-mail, they choose not to take part.

Now either it is gross incompetence/negligence, or some weird 'we can't be seen to have anything to do with the EU' ideaology rubbish.

Even if they felt they could get all they needed themselves, having this as a backup would have been the smart thing to do.

Roanmore

Matt Hancock said a week ago they were taking part in the process. That changed yesterday to we didn't see the e-mail.

J Mysterio

Boris has the Coronavirus

ancapailldorcha

J Mysterio wrote: »

Boris has the Coronavirus

Prince Charles has it as well.

I can't see it making much different with Brexit though. The main issue as I perceive it now is whether or not Johnson asks for an extension in June. Politically, there should be no problem. I don't know what his original plan was but it's surely unfeasible now given the current situation.

Imagine having coronavirus and having to deal with Brexit like Barnier and Johnson. We're all affected by it but they're active in both.

CelticRambler

Distracted by things happening closer to home, perhaps I've missed it, but what bothers me most about how this is that the first Brexit casualty of this pandemic is the sacrosanct WA provision to apply sanitary-phytosanitary controls on an all-island basis. The ink was hardly dry on the WA before this was put to the test in a real-life, real-death situation and poof! - that bit of the UK on the island of Ireland is applying different rules to the rest of landmass.

If the much vaunted sanitary controls do not apply to humans, then there's little point in worrying about what antibiotic-riddled, hormone-infused plant or animal matter enters the food chain next year. I sincerely hope that whatever mix of politicians makes up Rialtas na hÉireann in the coming months, they ensure that all future epidemics are dealt with as one geographical zone.

Podge_irl

CelticRambler wrote: »

If the much vaunted sanitary controls do not apply to humans

Except they don't, they never have, and they were never supposed to. Unless you want a vet to inspect you every time you try and go to Britain. Seems like a bit of an odd take.

Sam Russell

Podge_irl wrote: »

Except they don't, they never have, and they were never supposed to. Unless you want a vet to inspect you every time you try and go to Britain. Seems like a bit of an odd take.

Remember Ian Paisley's remark - 'We are British but our cows are Irish!'

Maybe the DUP were trying to reinforce their claim to be British.

CrabRevolution

J Mysterio wrote: »

Boris has the Coronavirus

A relative showed me the Daily Mail comments beneath the story of Michel Barnier testing positive, and they were logical, compassionate, and wholesome exactly what you'd expect; wishing him the worst and claiming it was divine retribution for his Brexit actions.

I'd like to see how the DM commenters spin Boris' illness.

Nody

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I'd like to see how the DM commenters spin Boris' illness.

A brave citizen who clearly got it from those filthy foreigners in Brussels but with a stiff upper lip is enduring and fighting on showing the Blitz resilience and spirit to stay calm in chaos and carry on his duties as any blue blooded brit would.

Debub

Nody wrote: »

A brave citizen who clearly got it from those filthy foreigners in Brussels but with a stiff upper lip is enduring and fighting on showing the Blitz resilience and spirit to stay calm in chaos and carry on his duties as any blue blooded brit would.

could this be how he caught it?


https://twitter.com/AynRandPaulRyan/status/1243526878532517888

strandroad

Debub wrote: »

could this be how he caught it?

Well "the other day" he already had the virus, so he gave it to everyone he shook hands with. In a hospital no less.

RobMc59

Following the pound against the dollar or euro is very confusing today,its currently rising quickly despite the FTSE sinking which is unusual.

strandroad

Nody wrote: »

A brave citizen who clearly got it from those filthy foreigners in Brussels but with a stiff upper lip is enduring and fighting on showing the Blitz resilience and spirit to stay calm in chaos and carry on his duties as any blue blooded brit would.

Chances are he survives and doesn't even suffer much (or if he does, it will be kept secret), so at the end of ot he'll emerge triumphant as a shining example of herd immunity too...

RobMc59

RobMc59 wrote: »

Following the pound against the dollar or euro is very confusing today,its currently rising quickly despite the FTSE sinking which is unusual.

Nothing too unusual there, they often go in opposite directions, I don't know why, but they do.

strandroad

strandroad wrote: »

Chances are he survives and doesn't even suffer much (or if he does, it will be kept secret), so at the end of ot he'll emerge triumphant as a shining example of herd immunity too...

The mortality rate for his age group is less than 1% and usually with an underlying illness, his prospects are good.

Xertz

RobMc59 wrote: »

Following the pound against the dollar or euro is very confusing today,its currently rising quickly despite the FTSE sinking which is unusual.

I've no idea why it would be doing that tbh. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense given the UK, US and EU are all in the same boat on this.

I think assuming that markets know something that we don't is pretty pointless though. They just react semi-rationally to latest news too.

Xertz

Xertz wrote: »

I've no idea why it would be doing that tbh. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense given the UK, US and EU are all in the same boat on this.

I think assuming that markets know something that we don't is pretty pointless though. They just react semi-rationally to latest news too.

It's like betting on racing spiders, in mid race, rapidly moving your money from one to the other in the hope that each hop puts you in the money.

ancapailldorcha

Link dump and below standard posts deleted. There can only be so many warnings about this given that there is already one in the OP.

RobMc59

The way Italy has been abandoned by the EU doesn't bode well for the EU in the future.Its a good job Russia has stepped into the breach to help them.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-eus-betrayal-of-italy-may-be-its-undoing/