Cars and their acceptance

Ray Palmer

This morning I was out very early and as a result I could hear the traffic as I was walking through the park. Normally the traffic is stuck so not as loud but this morning it was really noticable.
So it got me thinking about how much we put up with from cars and just ignore.
There are a number of issues.
1 noise pollution
2 air pollution
3 space dedicated to parking and storing cars
4 deaths
5 space for roads

Why they are not restricted on speed always strikes me as strange. Why even sell cars that 50% more than the top speed limit?

They are such incredibly wasteful use of resources

Trigger Happy

Fierce handy for getting around though.

Wanderer78

Ray Palmer wrote: »

This morning I was out very early and as a result I could hear the traffic as I was walking through the park. Normally the traffic is stuck so not as loud but this morning it was really noticable.
So it got me thinking about how much we put up with from cars and just ignore.
There are a number of issues.
1 noise pollution
2 air pollution
3 space dedicated to parking and storing cars
4 deaths
5 space for roads

Why they are not restricted on speed always strikes me as strange. Why even sell cars that 50% more than the top speed limit?

They are such incredibly wasteful use of resources

ban them, and see what happens!

corner of hells

Ray Palmer wrote: »

This morning I was out very early and as a result I could hear the traffic as I was walking through the park. Normally the traffic is stuck so not as loud but this morning it was really noticable.
So it got me thinking about how much we put up with from cars and just ignore.
There are a number of issues.
1 noise pollution
2 air pollution
3 space dedicated to parking and storing cars
4 deaths
5 space for roads

Why they are not restricted on speed always strikes me as strange. Why even sell cars that 50% more than the top speed limit?

They are such incredibly wasteful use of resources

Just stay in bed, you'll be grand.

PGE1970

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Why they are not restricted on speed always strikes me as strange. Why even sell cars that 50% more than the top speed limit?

Drive a Golf Gti around the Ring of Kerry and see if you will still maintain that stance.

Ray Palmer

Wanderer78 wrote: »

ban them, and see what happens!

Not talking about banning them but the reality of how much is ignored it shocking. Most journeys in rush hour are single occupancy.

Ray Palmer

PGE1970 wrote: »

Drive a Golf Gti around the Ring of Kerry and see if you will still maintain that stance.

Why would that change anything? Is the idea I would get angry and then speed to go around somebody going slow?

PGE1970

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Why would that change anything? Is the idea I would get angry and then speed to go around somebody going slow?

No. The pleasure of the driving experience.

Tacitus Kilgore

PGE1970 wrote: »

Drive a Golf Gti around the Ring of Kerry and see if you will still maintain that stance.

Eww.





what's your alternative to cars OP?

LirW

Was thinking of getting a good old horse carriage. At least I won't be paying rip off insurance prices and can sell the sh*te as fertilizer.

Downside: I really really don't like horses.

Hector Savage

I hate cars, I'm 41 and never owned one, I have a licence and we sometimes rent a car when we need it on holidays.
I'm lucky to live in a city where public transport is excellent.

But it really pisses me off that so much people if they changed their attitude and weren't so F'UCKING LAZY , traffic could be decimated and the world would be such a better place to live.

Can't wait for the 100% automatic driving, no spaces wasted on parking, an efficient system of much much less cars on the road...
out of my lifetime tho...

mickdw

Ya cars are terrible. We should ban them. Public transport is the answer but it should be improved so that individual people can get from their home to where they need to go.
Maybe if we had something like a bus but smaller - that people could navigate themselves, maybe even take 3 or 4 passengers. This small bus could be taken home each evening and stored at a person's house. The small bus could then be used daily on differing routes and different times by the home owner. It would take them right to their destination too so a big advantage there over trains and the current bus system.
We could introduce a licencing system to ensure people were qualified to navigate these vehicles and no doubt insurance would have to be in place. We would also likely have a roadworthiness testing system in place.
It might catch on. It would get a lot of the big awkward dirty diesel buses off the roads. The only issue I see is that the short sighted government would probably see fit to start to tax this method of public transport as if it were a luxury.

Ray Palmer

PGE1970 wrote: »

No. The pleasure of the driving experience.

Why would you need to go over the speed limit? Would cycling not be nicer what with not having a roaring engine sound?

Tacitus Kilgore

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Why would you need to go over the speed limit? Would cycling not be nicer what with not having a roaring engine sound?

Speed is subjective, speed limits are a construct


Would it not be nicer to enjoy it with the roar of an engine and pain free legs?

Ray Palmer

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Eww.





what's your alternative to cars OP?

There are plenty of alternatives for many people. The belief a car is the only way while ignoring all the issues with them is the part I find weird. Stop for a minute and really look at how much is done to cater for cars.

tabby aspreme

mickdw wrote: »

Ya cars are terrible. We should ban them. Public transport is the answer but it should be improved so that individual people can get from their home to where they need to go.
Maybe if we had something like a bus but smaller - that people could navigate themselves, maybe even take 3 or 4 passengers. This small bus could be taken home each evening and stored at a person's house. The small bus could then be used daily on differing routes and different times by the home owner. It would take them right to their destination too so a big advantage there over trains and the current bus system.
We could introduce a licencing system to ensure people were qualified to navigate these vehicles and no doubt insurance would have to be in place. We would also likely have a roadworthiness testing system in place.
It might catch on. It would get a lot of the big awkward dirty diesel buses off the roads. The only issue I see is that the short sighted government would probably see fit to start to tax this method of public transport as if it were a luxury.

This is a great idea, and these small busses could be called horseless carriages

nkl12xtw5goz70

Ray Palmer wrote: »

They are such incredibly wasteful use of resources

I'm guessing you live in a city, OP, so at least you have the option of public transportation. But what are the many people who live in rural Ireland supposed to do? How do they get their kids to school, get to work, etc.? In many places, "public transportation" may be a couple of buses per day if you're lucky.

Tacitus Kilgore

Ray Palmer wrote: »

There are plenty of alternatives for many people. The belief a car is the only way while ignoring all the issues with them is the part I find weird. Stop for a minute and really look at how much is done to cater for cars.

I agree, but can you name one? I live and work in the country, as much as I'd love an alternative to my daily driven car - there are currently no workable ones for me, I can't afford an EV (not that they are the answer either - still a car)

You can say move to the city but this would be a deflection, not a solution..

Stark

Don't think we should ban them. There is incredible flexibility and freedom that comes from being able to drive. (Speaking as a car owner myself). But the entitlement attitude that means everyone in major cities has to suffer poorer qualify of life to appease the few who do drive needs to be tackled for sure imo. It's ridiculous that in many cases in Dublin for example, there are 4 lanes going one direction for car traffic but the motoring lobby are up in arms if you try to take away just one for public transport/cycling. Hopefully BusConnects will make a difference by balancing the space allocation a bit better.

Ray Palmer

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Speed is subjective, speed limits are a construct


Would it not be nicer to enjoy it with the roar of an engine and pain free legs?

No speed is not subjective it is measurable. Cars are a construct, speed limits are from experience and danger.

No the roar of an engine is fine if you are the only one hearing it and you are not thrusting it on other. If you cycle regularly why would your legs hurt?

realdanbreen

A good Sulky is the way to go Boss.

Wibbs

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Why would you need to go over the speed limit?

Sometimes it's fun.

Would cycling not be nicer what with not having a roaring engine sound?

Aye, sweating like a pig, or turning blue with the cold, while being drenched, or all three in as many minutes. Fantastic. I'll take a "roaring engine sound" thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHgD0wJGcR0

(He's not actually going that quickly. Well 50 million quids worth of car so...)

Tacitus Kilgore

Ray Palmer wrote: »

No speed is not subjective it is measurable. Cars are a construct, speed limits are from experience and danger.

No the roar of an engine is fine if you are the only one hearing it and you are not thrusting it on other. If you cycle regularly why would your legs hurt?

Tis measurable indeed, and speed limits are definitely a construct - tell me, what's the speed limit on the conor pass?

Wibbs

Ray Palmer wrote: »

No speed is not subjective it is measurable. Cars are a construct, speed limits are from experience and danger.

What bollocks is this? "Cars are a construct"? And yeah, speed is pretty "subjective". If you fly to France on holidays at 600 mph it doesn't subjectively feel as fast as 80mph in a car, or 40 on a bike.

No the roar of an engine is fine if you are the only one hearing it and you are not thrusting it on other.

Thrust it on me baaaabee.

If you cycle regularly why would your legs hurt?

Cycling's great for kids, or for sport, or pastime, largely a pain in the arse for transport beyond a couple of miles and beyond useless if you have to carry any equipment for work or pleasure(buses aren't much cop here either actually).

Ray Palmer

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

I agree, but can you name one? I live and work in the country, as much as I'd love an alternative to my daily driven car - there are currently no workable ones for me, I can't afford an EV (not that they are the answer either - still a car)

You can say move to the city but this would be a deflection, not a solution..

Cycling, walking and public transport are all options for many people. Ride sharing can reduce use as can a smaller car reduce impact. Not for everyone.

The fact is you chose to live rural and away from work. That is your choice but should there be a pile of allowances made for that choice put upon others? I live close to Dublin city but I have to put up with the people who decided they got better value for money by buying further away from work and drive.
People will argue they could only afford to buy or rent far away but that is not the full story. Most decided on a number of factors and decided they would use cars.
Congestion charges will come in it is just a matter of time

alchemist33

Stark wrote: »

Don't think we should ban them. There is incredible flexibility and freedom that comes from being able to drive. (Speaking as a car owner myself). But the entitlement attitude that means everyone in major cities has to suffer poorer qualify of life to appease the few who do drive needs to be tackled for sure imo. It's ridiculous that in many cases in Dublin for example, there are 4 lanes going one direction for car traffic but the motoring lobby are up in arms if you try to take away just one for public transport/cycling. Hopefully BusConnects will make a difference by balancing the space allocation a bit better.

In my experience of getting out of Dublin after hospital appointments, it's one lane only for cars. I really hate driving there anymore and avoid the city if I can.

Wibbs

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The fact is you chose to live rural and away from work. That is your choice but should there be a pile of allowances made for that choice put upon others? I live close to Dublin city but I have to put up with the people who decided they got better value for money by buying further away from work and drive.
People will argue they could only afford to buy or rent far away but that is not the full story. Most decided on a number of factors and decided they would use cars.
Congestion charges will come in it is just a matter of time

WTF? He said he lives and works in the country. And what's this nonsense about "choice". I dunno, here's a mad thought; maybe he was born and bred in a rural area and god forbid wants to stay there. What would you have him do, sell up and move to a small flat in Dublin or Cork and walk to his work cubicle?

And you "have to put up with people"? Ah you poor thing. :rolleyes: You must live an extremely sheltered life if you think people chose to live many miles away from work, sitting in rush hour traffic in car or bus(surrounded by the too often unwashed). I hate to break it to you, but 9 times outa 10 it's because that's the only bloody place they could afford to rent or buy.

tjhook

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The fact is you chose to live rural and away from work.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I live close to Dublin city but I have to put up with the people who decided they got better value for money by buying further away from work and drive.

Aren't you choosing to live close to Dublin city? You could equally choose to live and work further out, in a quieter area?

Or is your choice more important than somebody else's?

Tacitus Kilgore

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Cycling, walking and public transport are all options for many people. Ride sharing can reduce use as can a smaller car reduce impact. Not for everyone.

The fact is you chose to live rural and away from work. That is your choice but should there be a pile of allowances made for that choice put upon others? I live close to Dublin city but I have to put up with the people who decided they got better value for money by buying further away from work and drive.
People will argue they could only afford to buy or rent far away but that is not the full story. Most decided on a number of factors and decided they would use cars.
Congestion charges will come in it is just a matter of time

Like yourself I am sure, I did not chose to be born, nor where I was born into.



Without bothering to type any more, because your own reply has shown enough - your argument is a massive load of bollocks.

PGE1970

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The fact is you chose to live rural and away from work. That is your choice but should there be a pile of allowances made for that choice put upon others? I live close to Dublin city but I have to put up with the people who decided they got better value for money by buying further away from work and drive.
People will argue they could only afford to buy or rent far away but that is not the full story. Most decided on a number of factors and decided they would use cars.
Congestion charges will come in it is just a matter of time

Do you realise how ridiculous and sanctimonious this sounds?
I''m thinking that you are just on a wind-up. This is in AH and not motors thread after all.

Thelonious Monk

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Eww.





what's your alternative to cars OP?

planning towns and cities so that we aren't reliant on cars? I was on Capel st last night and it's barely walkable/cycleable/driveable with the amount of parked cars on both sides of quite a narrow st. If they got rid of the parking they could have contra flow bike lanes and wider footpaths.
I don't know why priority is given to cars on streets. I'm nearly 40 and have never owned a car, so it isn't necessary always.

Thelonious Monk

Wibbs wrote: »

Cycling's great for kids, or for sport, or pastime, largely a pain in the arse for transport beyond a couple of miles and beyond useless if you have to carry any equipment for work or pleasure(buses aren't much cop here either actually).

Well sorry but you don't know what you're talking about obviously. My commute is 10k each way and it's barely strenuous at all. Anyone able bodied who lives within the M50 and works in the centre of Dublin should be able to commute by bicycle. There's nothing quite like the feeling of whizzing by long snakes of traffic.

Tacitus Kilgore

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

planning towns and cities so that we aren't reliant on cars? I was on Capel st last night and it's barely walkable/cycleable/driveable with the amount of parked cars on both sides of quite a narrow st. If they got rid of the parking they could have contra flow bike lanes and wider footpaths.
I don't know why priority is given to cars on streets. I'm nearly 40 and have never owned a car, so it isn't necessary always.

Come down and live with me for a bit, see how good life is without a car.

Wibbs

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well sorry but you don't know what you're talking about obviously.

Aye, there's a lot of that going around alright... QV:

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I'm nearly 40 and have never owned a car, so it isn't necessary always.

Good for you. But again crazy thought, other people aren't you. Today I'll go to Naas and likely a quick jaunt to north Wicklow and last time I looked my name wasn't Sean Kelly, so a bike would be as much use to me as tits on a bull.

My commute is 10k each way and it's barely strenuous at all. Anyone able bodied who lives within the M50 and works in the centre of Dublin should be able to commute by bicycle. There's nothing quite like the feeling of whizzing by long snakes of traffic.

I don't work in the city(or rarely), so handy enough for me. However I'm not going get all narky about those who have to whether they get their by bike, bus, or car. This hairshirt holier than thou ballsology from some cyclists(and the occasional car driver, bonus points if they plug their cars in of an evening) gets irritating quickly enough.

Ray Palmer

Wibbs wrote: »

WTF? He said he lives and works in the country. And what's this nonsense about "choice". I dunno, here's a mad thought; maybe he was born and bred in a rural area and god forbid wants to stay there. What would you have him do, sell up and move to a small flat in Dublin or Cork and walk to his work cubicle?

And you "have to put up with people"? Ah you poor thing. :rolleyes: You must live an extremely sheltered life if you think people chose to live many miles away from work, sitting in rush hour traffic in car or bus(surrounded by the too often unwashed). I hate to break it to you, but 9 times outa 10 it's because that's the only bloody place they could afford to rent or buy.

So what if he was born there, now an adult and made a choice where to live and work. The same way I made a choice. The difference my choice doesn't impose on their choice but theirs does on my choice.

Far from living a sheltered life I know why people made choices. To say their only option was derived from pricing alone is nonsense. Friends and family declaring I was crazy for buying a smaller property close to the city instead of a bigger house further out where my only option would be to drive. They then start complaining that their commutes are so long, costly and their employer doesn't provide parking. They go on about how they park on residential roads and the locals campaign for resident parking are b**tards for stopping them. They spent the same money as I did on their homes and they certainly did have a choice. To claim 9 out of 10 people bought or rent as that was all they could afford is nonsense.

I am not saying everybody can do without their cars but it is nowhere near the majority. Many do so for convenience and personal pleasure. People often point to one thing they do maybe twice a year as a reason to have a car like getting DIY materials.

Thelonious Monk

Yes some people need cars for work but many dont and they should be encouraged to use other methods to get to work. Otherwise air pollution will just continue to get worse and gridlock will worsen too. What do you suggest we do, continue to encourage more people to drive everywhere whether its necessary or not?

Thelonious Monk

Also what is a hairshirt?

Ray Palmer

PGE1970 wrote: »

Do you realise how ridiculous and sanctimonious this sounds?
I''m thinking that you are just on a wind-up. This is in AH and not motors thread after all.

No I don't. How is it different from somebody claiming they have to drive because they CHOSE to live somewhere away from the city but work there for a better quality of life? They are literally the people causing the city to be congested and polluted so they have what they want.

Thelonious Monk

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Come down and live with me for a bit, see how good life is without a car.

Well i wouldnt live somewhere that required me to own a car so no thanks

Tacitus Kilgore

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yes some people need cars for work but many dont and they should be encouraged to use other methods to get to work. Otherwise air pollution will just continue to get worse and gridlock will worsen too. What do you suggest we do, continue to encourage more people to drive everywhere whether its necessary or not?

I suggest someone comes up with a decent working alternative instead of just flaming against the car all of the time and telling people it's their choice to own a car - it is a choice, same way breathing and eating are a choice.

I own a rake of cars - they are my hobby, I would prefer not to have to drive one of a daily basis because I get no joy from polluting the world on the way to work and do my shopping but there are absolutely no workable alternatives for me. (except of course moving into Dublin city :rolleyes:)



"JuSt MoVe To a CiTy" is absolute scutter.

Thelonious Monk

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

I suggest someone comes up with a decent working alternative instead of just flaming against the car all of the time and telling people it's their choice to own a car - it is a choice, same way breathing and eating are a choice.

I own a rake of cars - they are my hobby, I would prefer not to have to drive one of a daily basis because I get no joy from polluting the world on the way to work and do my shopping but there are absolutely no workable alternatives for me. (except of course moving into Dublin city :rolleyes:)



"JuSt MoVe To a CiTy" is absolute scutter.

Youve no alternatives, grand. Many who live in cities do though and continue to drive and clog the place up. I would like a less congested cleaner city that is nicer to walk and cycle around much like many of our european counterparts. I hope we are going in that direction.

Tacitus Kilgore

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well i wouldnt live somewhere that required me to own a car so no thanks

:pac: excellent retort.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Youve no alternatives, grand. Many who live in cities do though and continue to drive and clog the place up. I would like a less congested cleaner city that is nicer to walk and cycle around much like many of our european counterparts. I hope we are going in that direction.

Absolutely, those people should walk/cycle/public transport & scoot where possible, I am merely trying to highlight the enormous flaws in the crusade against the motor car, and to be fair yourself and the OP have done my work for me.

Ray Palmer

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

I suggest someone comes up with a decent working alternative instead of just flaming against the car all of the time and telling people it's their choice to own a car - it is a choice, same way breathing and eating are a choice.

I own a rake of cars - they are my hobby, I would prefer not to have to drive one of a daily basis because I get no joy from polluting the world on the way to work and do my shopping but there are absolutely no workable alternatives for me. (except of course moving into Dublin city :rolleyes:)



"JuSt MoVe To a CiTy" is absolute scutter.

Yet people say I should move out of the city to avoid the problems caused by the commuters.

Driving a car is in no way comparable to breathing or eating.There are a huge amount of journeys that are driven without any need to. One of my neighbours drives to the local shop that is a 10 minute walk to buy the newspaper. I have seen him yelling and shouting about parking there when he could easily walk or cycle.

A person I work with drives to work and it takes her 1.5 hours she lives around the corner from me. I get in to work in 30 minutes cycling. She could save 2 hours a day and get much needed exercise. Instead she goes on about her diet and the lack of parking at the gym a 20 minute walk from her house.

If you don't see that as crazy can you explain how it is sensible.

Thelonious Monk

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

and to be fair yourself and the OP have done my work for me.

By saying we should encourage other methods in cities? Outside of the major urban areas in Ireland, development has been around motor cars with zero public transport, so reliance on cars wont be changing there any time soon, that's ok.
But in Dublin for e.g., we could have way better public transport if we had less cars on the road and a way safer infrastructure for cyclists, and scooters too why not. Outside of tradesmen and deliveries etc there's no reason why so many people should be driving in the city centre.

tjhook

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

But in Dublin for e.g., we could have way better public transport if we had less cars on the road and a way safer infrastructure for cyclists, and scooters too why not.

You have it backwards. If more/better public transport was made available, it would be used, and there would be less traffic as a result.

• Look at the take-up of the Luas
• Irish Rail can't cope with the numbers of customers, and are asking people to spread out their usage.

Speaking as a user of public transport. Having said that, if public transport is not convenient for my next job, I'll be back in the car!

Thelonious Monk

tjhook wrote: »

You have it backwards. If more/better public transport was made available, it would be used, and there would be less traffic as a result.

If you cycle to work and see how clogged the bus lanes are every single day with private cars and taxis impeding buses you might change your mind. But yes we need massive investment in PT all over Ireland, it doesn't seem to be a vote winner though.

maccored

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The fact is you chose to live rural and away from work.

not this old chestnut again.

The answer IS NOT move to a city,

biko

**** off back to Sweden Greta

Thelonious Monk

biko wrote: »

**** off back to Sweden Greta

wrong thread bruv

Ray Palmer

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

:pac: excellent retort.






Absolutely, those people should walk/cycle/public transport & scoot where possible, I am merely trying to highlight the enormous flaws in the crusade against the motor car, and to be fair yourself and the OP have done my work for me.

There is your problem right there, it isn't a crusade. You are already assuming that pointing out real concerns as me trying to ban cars. I never said they should be banned or close to it. Pointing out how wasteful cars are and their problems is not a crusade. The fact you are raging over this just shows you have the issue and can't discuss the subject.

Why should cars be sold that can go 50% over the speed limit?

Ray Palmer

maccored wrote: »

not this old chestnut again.

The answer IS NOT move to a city,

If somebody is saying they need a car because of where they live what is the problem with questioning why they chose to live there when it requires a car?
Why is the answer not to live close to work and transport?