What do people want from their politicians?

JohnnyFlash

We see a lot of threads around here about how dishonourable and downright vile our politicians are. I’ve always found it unusual that the plain people of Ireland - a people of limitless honour, honesty, morality and integrity appear to vote for politicians who don’t share these attributes.

So I’m wondering what the political animals in CA want from a politician? For example, should they be:

Paid less or paid more.
Not allowed be from certain professions.
Have to take a vow of poverty.
Not be allowed be a publican, landlord, or secondary school teacher.
Not be allowed claim expenses.
Have to stay in specially designated ‘digs’ if overnighting in Dublin.
Not be allowed go on foreign holidays.
Not be allowed be a politician if they happen to come from a political ‘dynasty’.
Not be entitled to a pension.


You see I happen to know a good few TDs (these are the circles I happen to move in) and would describe them as some of the most decent, hard working and selfless people I know. It’s a very tough job where you are under constant scrutiny, and I can think of a load of easier ways to make 100k a year. But I appear to be in a minority - the View seems to be that politicians are all out to feather their own nest (despite the fact that many of them take a significant pay cut to become a TD or hand over the running of their business).

Would any of the more frequent posters around here ever consider running for office, and what would you all do different?

_Brian

I think I “most” politicians start with an honest goal in mind.

Many are corrupted by money from others.
Many get lazy over time, particularly those from dynasty families where it takes little bit public appearances at funerals to be re-elected.

Many get worn down by being tarred with the same brush as the previous two categories.

In many ways Ireland is too small to have an efficient political system free from parish pump politics.

begsbyOnaTrain

I think we need some term limits for how long one can be in the Dail and Senate. Too often people spend their whole bloody lives in the political bubble and are completely detached from reality.

The Satanist

I think they should all be executed so that I can assume the throne without further ado.

CageWager

Yeah, when you think about politicians, should they be:

Able to use a swing without falling off
Immune from making fraudulent expense claims
Able to sit in their own seat
Cast only their own vote

Its pure madness what we expect from elected representatives these days.

PhilOssophy

Irish people are too tribal. We want our local TD to be on the end of the phone to sort out the bus pass, medical card, and ideally be a sneaky, conniving ****
We want our road fixed more than we want the best Brexit deal for Ireland.
If a local TD was Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and streamlined the entire public sector into an efficient workable model, people would say "ah but poor Mary Murphy down the road, she lost her job" even though the whole office knew she hadn't worked in 30 years.
I had an argument with somebody recently where I reasoned that Irish people get the politicians we deserve and want.
Clever people wouldn't even think about going into politics.

Its not just in Ireland though, I lived in Canada and they were just as useless there. And look at Trump, Boris.

I never see why any county needs 4-5 TD's. It is way too many.

TDs should not be paid more, but their job brief needs to change away from local matters.

Pauliedragon

We're very parochial people. How many people do you hear bitch and moan the whole time ff/fg they're in power but will still vote in the guy at an election who's with said party cause he's a nice down at supervalu every Sunday doin the shopping. Nothing to do with his policies.

PhilOssophy

Pauliedragon wrote: »

We're very parochial people. How many people do you hear bitch and moan the whole time ff/fg they're in power but will still vote in the guy at an election who's with said party cause he's a nice down at supervalu every Sunday doin the shopping. Nothing to do with his policies.

That is because they actually don't stand for any policies, just go to funerals locally and get the local GAA club a grant.

Most of them wouldn't understand even the tiniest bit about politics outside their own 5km radius. Ask them about the various climate accord, trade deals, etc and they would not even know what they were about.

EmmetSpiceland

I’d like to see one, and only one, pension for “public service”.

I’d also like to see both salary and pension reform for politicians and their “staff”. We are paying well over the odds for what we are getting from our public servants, especially the politicians.

begsbyOnaTrain

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I never see why any county needs 4-5 TD's. It is way too many.

So I can vote in the following order:

1 - The local crook, who'll get things done for the area (roads, sell his vote for infrastructure deals etc.)
2 - Senior FGer, so that if they are the biggest party he may get a ministerial position and therefore get stuff for the local area.
3 - Senior FFer, so that if they are the biggest party he may get a ministerial position and therefore get stuff for the local area.
4 - Mad leftie - So that they can find tooth and nail against water tax, local rates (i.e. anything standard in most Western democracies)
5 - Secondary FGer/FFer depending on which way the polls are indicating who'll win so that you might have naother chance at a junior minister for your area.

Honestly, it's like you lot have no idea how to vote.

Pauliedragon

PhilOssophy wrote: »

That is because they actually don't stand for any policies, just go to funerals locally and get the local GAA club a grant.

Most of them wouldn't understand even the tiniest bit about politics outside their own 5km radius. Ask them about the various climate accord, trade deals, etc and they would not even know what they were about.

That's partly my point. We shouldn't be voting for people like that but the alternative will probably be the same. How do we fix that I don't have a clue to be honest. When I lived in Oz for example there is a marked difference between the 2 major parties so there's more swing voters so more people vote based on what they believe the winner will do best. Our 2 just seem to both as bad as each other so I'll just tick a box on the day and see what happens attitude with some people.

PhilOssophy

begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »

So I can vote in the following order:

1 - The local crook, who'll get things done for the area (roads, sell his vote for infrastructure deals etc.)
2 - Senior FGer, so that if they are the biggest party he may get a ministerial position and therefore get stuff for the local area.
3 - Senior FFer, so that if they are the biggest party he may get a ministerial position and therefore get stuff for the local area.
4 - Mad leftie - So that they can find tooth and nail against water tax, local rates (i.e. anything standard in most Western democracies)
5 - Secondary FGer/FFer depending on which way the polls are indicating who'll win so that you might have naother chance at a junior minister for your area.

Honestly, it's like you lot have no idea how to vote.

So your voting order is
1. Independent (Lowry, Healy-Rae, Mick)
2/3 Senior FG / FF
4. PBP
5. Second FG/FF.

The big question though is did the senior FF / FG not do enough when they got you the planning permission that the #1 snake said he couldn't get you? Also the 2nd FG/FF - surely you are not as laissez-faire as that, you are either a good FG or a good FF man, you can't be both.

Plumbthedepths

Many TD's take a significant pay cut when they become TD's?
Large number of TD's are teachers by profession. MM teacher, Enda Kenny teacher, Michael Noonan teacher, Mary Mitchell O' Connor teacher. Lots more but you get the point. I may be wrong but does the teacher salary scale reach 100k plus expenses?
I would of course be interested to know which TD's are captains of industry which through a selfless act of servitude made such a sacrifice to survive on the pittance our elected representatives are paid.

begsbyOnaTrain

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Also the 2nd FG/FF - surely you are not as laissez-faire as that, you are either a good FG or a good FF man, you can't be both.

You gotta keep your constituency "unsafe" and "up for play". If FF get in and your place is a solid FG land, then you'll get funk all. If they think however that they may gain a second/third seat next time, say hello to loads of money pouring your way. Flip flop for when FG are in power.

James Brown

1) Accountability.
2) Consequences.
3) One pension, no lump sums.

EmmetSpiceland

Matt Barrett wrote: »

1) Accountability.
2) Consequences.
3) One pension, no lump sums.

Why no lump sums?

RobbingBandit

Indoctrinated into time honoured traditional values pillage plunder lie cheat and steal lie lie lie some more and get drunk in a subsidised bar, vote for the party manifestoes or you're out on your arse.

It's a bloody shambles of a system where no party exists that differs from another enough to do something about the previous regimes mistakes they just build upon them changing things slightly enough until they themselves fudge it up then we have those cretins back in power.

James Brown

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Why no lump sums?

Because they get a nice enough ride off the tax payer as is IMO.

EmmetSpiceland

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Because they get a nice enough ride off the tax payer as is IMO.

Ah, sorry, I thought you meant all lump sums, “private” pensions included.

The lump sum payment, unless the person has “additional” contributions, bring down the amount of the pension payments.

A much bigger issue for me, M, is the full pension they receive after only a “handful” of years. The cost of that is astronomical.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Because they get a nice enough ride off the tax payer as is IMO.

So you are suggesting that politicians be treated less favourably than public servants?

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

So you are suggesting that politicians be treated less favourably than public servants?

Blanch I know you have difficulties staying on track but we're talking about politicians. If you want to discuss job for life no mark public servants and how good they have it, move on.

Geuze

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

I’d like to see one, and only one, pension for “public service”.

I’d also like to see both salary and pension reform for politicians and their “staff”. We are paying well over the odds for what we are getting from our public servants, especially the politicians.

There is just one pension scheme, in a sense.

If a teacher becomes a principal, should she only ever get a teachers pension, or should she get an extra pension for being a principal?

It's the same idea.

A TD gets a regular TD pension.

For the time they are a Minister they get an extra pension in respect of that time.

Are you suggesting that there be no such thing as Ministerial pensions, and only TD pensions?

Geuze

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

A much bigger issue for me, M, is the full pension they receive after only a “handful” of years. The cost of that is astronomical.

A fair point.

What should be full service for a TD pension?

Geuze

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Indoctrinated into time honoured traditional values pillage plunder lie cheat and steal lie lie lie some more and get drunk in a subsidised bar,

For the hundreth time, the Oireachtas bar IS NOT SUBSIDISED.

James Brown

Geuze wrote: »

For the hundreth time, the Oireachtas bar IS NOT SUBSIDISED.

Does it matter either way if they never pay the tab?

Geuze

Matt Barrett wrote: »

3) One pension, no lump sums.

Should all pension lump-sums, across society, be abolished?

If so, pension payments will have to rise to compensate.

EmmetSpiceland

Geuze wrote: »

There is just one pension scheme, in a sense.

If a teacher becomes a principal, should she only ever get a teachers pension, or should she get an extra pension for being a principal?

It's the same idea.

A TD gets a regular TD pension.

For the time they are a Minister they get an extra pension in respect of that time.

Are you suggesting that there be no such thing as Ministerial pensions, and only TD pensions?

That’s exactly what I’m suggesting. The pension should be based on salary and service. If there’s career averaging, so be it.

And there should be no full pensions for a handful of years service.

To be honest, the old pensions are dinosaurs. And massively expensive dinosaurs at that. They need to wind then all up and bring in a generous “defined contribution” setup.

James Brown

Geuze wrote: »

Should all pension lump-sums, across society, be abolished?

If so, pension payments will have to rise to compensate.

No.
I'm talking lump sums based on roles they played. One pension based on the salary of the highest post they held seems fair.

EmmetSpiceland

Matt Barrett wrote: »

No.
I'm talking lump sums based on roles they played. One pension based on the salary of the highest post they held seems fair.

Like the one the “outgoing” county councillor‘s got recently? Thought that was crazy, myself.

James Brown

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Like the one the “outgoing” county councillor‘s got recently? Thought that was crazy, myself.

Not familiar.

EmmetSpiceland

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Not familiar.

Can only find Newstalk covering it, any other coverage comes from 2014. It’s classed as a retirement payment.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/local-councillors-lost-seats-receive-retirement-payments-e6m-914609

James Brown

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Can only find Newstalk covering it, any other coverage comes from 2014. It’s classed as a retirement payment.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/local-councillors-lost-seats-receive-retirement-payments-e6m-914609

The one lad citing how many years he gave to the council. Give that man a medal :rolleyes: We've people digging ditches and working in factories get less.

blanch152

Geuze wrote: »

Should all pension lump-sums, across society, be abolished?

If so, pension payments will have to rise to compensate.

Exactly.

Some people don't understand that defined benefit schemes have two options.

A half-salary pension and a lump sum or a two-thirds pension and no lump sum. Either option is legitimate under revenue rules.

Do the people on here calling for no lump sum realise that means a TD getting two-thirds salary in retirement?

EmmetSpiceland

blanch152 wrote: »

Exactly.

Some people don't understand that defined benefit schemes have two options.

A half-salary pension and a lump sum or a two-thirds pension and no lump sum. Either option is legitimate under revenue rules.

Do the people on here calling for no lump sum realise that means a TD getting two-thirds salary in retirement?

My issue isn’t with the “lump sum” payments, B. It’s the structure of the political pensions, themselves.

Getting a full pension after a few years is obscene. The costs involved are astronomical.

The old pension setups, even for the average civil servant, are crazy. I wouldn’t begrudge anyone who’s on one but it’s hard to see how they can continue on into the future. There has to come a time when “new hires” are put into a modern, generous, defined contribution setup.

Wibbling wonder

Brian Cowen for example "retired" at 55 and gets an enormous pension for life whereas the rest of us that don't have gold plated DB pensions will be lucky to have any level of decent income when we retire. Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind in terms of trying to drive any pension reform there. If I could get it you'd better believe I'd take it!

I think politicians are expected to jump every time a constituent calls them on the local issues that matter to them and therein lies the issue. We want the cute hoors who'll fix the potholes or get grants for you locally and then wonder why they do it on a national level.

Snow Garden

Vision
Accountability
Honesty/Honour
Greater good as opposed to parish pump thinking
Stop attending funerals to get/keep votes
No fraud

Eric Cartman

Politicians not afraid to call put the problems in our society for fear of being called a racist etc...

Snow Garden

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Politicians not afraid to call put the problems in our society for fear of being called a racist etc...

Whats worse is that as soon as they are called a racist they do their level best to prove that they are not racist. "Some of my best friends are <insert race>" crap and a few photos to prove it.
This might be controversial but I think people that are racists need to own it. Fcuk the PC brigade. Many Irish people are a little bit racist, own it.

James Brown

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

My issue isn’t with the “lump sum” payments, B. It’s the structure of the political pensions, themselves.

Getting a full pension after a few years is obscene. The costs involved are astronomical.

The old pension setups, even for the average civil servant, are crazy. I wouldn’t begrudge anyone who’s on one but it’s hard to see how they can continue on into the future. There has to come a time when “new hires” are put into a modern, generous, defined contribution setup.

I agree. Some folk get confused or pretend to with the term 'lump sum' though and align it with the pension agreement. The lump sums I've issue with are separate from the pension arrangement. such as:

Taoiseach to get backbench TD’s salary when he steps down
It was reported last week that Mr Kenny would receive an estimated lump sum of €378,000 on his retirement and a pension estimated at €126,000 annually.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/taoiseach-to-get-backbench-td-s-salary-when-he-steps-down-1.3095149

These seem like two separate sums to me. The lump sum is referred to as a Termination or stepping down payment or more commonly a golden handshake.

Six figure lump sum payments were made to a number of former TDs in 2017, according to the records.

This included €113,719 for former Labour Party minister Kathleen Lynch, €109,768 for Fine Gael’s Liam Twomey, and €102,127 for ex-Labour TD Joanna Tuffy.

These lump sum payments would normally have been made in 2016 but were instead paid a year later because the recipients were entitled to a period of termination (step-down) pay after leaving their seats following the general election, or because of their age.

These figures can also include pension payments related to previous public service, if say a politician had previously worked as a teacher, civil servant, or in another state role.

The single largest annual Oireachtas pension is paid to former TD Michael O Kennedy who is in receipt of €57,699 annually. Mr O Kennedy also receives a ministerial pension from the Department of Finance.

A number of familiar names from Fianna Fáil also receive pensions worth in excess of €53,000 from the Oireachtas.

These include Michael Woods, Frank Fahey, Mary O’Rourke, Dermot Ahern, Charlie McCreevy, John O’Donoghue, and Martin Cullen. All would also be entitled to separate ministerial pensions.
https://www.thejournal.ie/politicians-pensions-ireland-4634460-May2019/

IMO, I suggest they get one pension/sum based on years served, in which ever manner they like, lump, pulp or no pulp, twice on months with an R in it or whatever.

James Brown

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Politicians not afraid to call put the problems in our society for fear of being called a racist etc...

If you think race is the problem you are a racist. It's practically the definition. I'm fine with people being honest about that. I know who to avoid or not vote for.

PeadarCo

Wibbling wonder wrote:

Brian Cowen for example "retired" at 55 and gets an enormous pension for life whereas the rest of us that don't have gold plated DB pensions will be lucky to have any level of decent income when we retire. Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind in terms of trying to drive any pension reform there. If I could get it you'd better believe I'd take it!

To be fair what Brian Cowen did is something other public servants such as teachers can currently do. I know of one teacher that retired at the same age with a full pension after doing enough years.

The issue of pensions and the public sector goes way beyond TDs. The fact that there is such thing as defined benefit pensions at all these days in the public sector is crazy. There are very few defined benefit pensions these days in the private sector. Most have either been closed and converted to defined contribution or closed to new entrants. It's a ticking time bomb that politicians are afraid to touch because of kickback from employees and unions.

ChikiChiki

A politician that is accountable, upholds the standards for public office, is compassionate and competent. And politicians that don't lie and spin so blatantly to the public when telling the truth is better.

That's all I ask for, that's all I want out of elected representatives.

All the above traits are greatly lacking in Irish politics.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I agree. Some folk get confused or pretend to with the term 'lump sum' though and align it with the pension agreement. The lump sums I've issue with are separate from the pension arrangement. such as:



These seem like two separate sums to me. The lump sum is referred to as a Termination or stepping down payment or more commonly a golden handshake.



r.

Eh, that lump sum is part of the pension scheme, not separate.

Similar to what a Secretary General would get.

I don’t think you have even a basic understanding of pensions.

tayto lover

Honesty
Integrity
100 K wage, no expenses.

blanch152

PeadarCo wrote: »

To be fair what Brian Cowen did is something other public servants such as teachers can currently do. I know of one teacher that retired at the same age with a full pension after doing enough years.

The issue of pensions and the public sector goes way beyond TDs. The fact that there is such thing as defined benefit pensions at all these days in the public sector is crazy. There are very few defined benefit pensions these days in the private sector. Most have either been closed and converted to defined contribution or closed to new entrants. It's a ticking time bomb that politicians are afraid to touch because of kickback from employees and unions.

There have been major changes to the pension scheme in recent years. The Single Pension Scheme reduced the benefits.

One of the things that is forgotten is that independent determinations of public service pay have reduced it to take account of pension arrangements, reduce the pension and you have to increase pay.

In essence, the current system moves the burden from the current taxpayer to the future taxpayer.

PeadarCo

blanch152 wrote:

One of the things that is forgotten is that independent determinations of public service pay have reduced it to take account of pension arrangements, reduce the pension and you have to increase pay.

You don't have to increase pay as you are assuming public servants are incurring the cost of their pension. The recent history of defined benefit pensions in the private sector tells a very different story. Most have been closed due to issues of insolvency.

I know of people in the private sector that lost 6 figure sums from their pension pot as a result of a switch from defined benefit to contribution. The reason they accepted it was that if the pension scheme had remained defined contribution they would have got nothing when they hit retirement 10/15 years later. Under a defined contribution they would get something. Given that public sector is financed out of current expenditure it's a dilemma not faced by public servants. I would agree that the current pension agreements for new entrants are no where anywhere near as generous as current retirees. However anyone who is part of solvent defined benefit pension scheme should thank their lucky stars because they are extremely rare these days.

On my broader point politicians are going to be reluctant to look at their own pension schemes given they are similar to public sector plans. Which themselves are vastly more generous than the private sector.

KaneToad

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Many TD's take a significant pay cut when they become TD's?
Large number of TD's are teachers by profession. MM teacher, Enda Kenny teacher, Michael Noonan teacher, Mary Mitchell O' Connor teacher. Lots more but you get the point. I may be wrong but does the teacher salary scale reach 100k plus expenses?
I would of course be interested to know which TD's are captains of industry which through a selfless act of servitude made such a sacrifice to survive on the pittance our elected representatives are paid.

I would imagine that both Leo Varadkar and Simon Coveney would be earning more in the private sector. As would Michael McGrath...

JohnnyFlash

I’m in Chile at the moment. There’s protests going on about the inequality in the country. Very friendly and well read people. Many of them believe Ireland is the type of country they aspire to. Obviously there’s very many issues, but should we all take a step back and take a look at what we have achieved as a country in less than 100 years since we declared independence?

Number 4 on the UN HDI (human development index).
Number six on the GDP list.
Number 3 on the freedom of the press ranking (which none of you want to seem to pay for).
Number 4 on the GNI rankings.

Maybe we should spend more time acknowledging the work of the politicians and civil service who brought us to this place? And spend more time defending the tenets of social democracy - the finest and most decent system of governance that has ever existed?

Wanderer78

JohnnyFlash wrote:

I’m in Chile at the moment. There’s protests going on about the inequality in the country. Very friendly and well read people. Many of them believe Ireland is the type of country they aspire to. Obviously there’s very many issues, but should we all take a step back and take a look at what we have achieved as a country in less than 100 years since we declared independence?

We do forget our past at times, we certainly have done extremely well for ourselves over the last century, but it is all relative, this is partly due to our political class, but we must take credit ourselves to. Would I be a politican, not a bloody hope, what a crap job, even though the pay could be good, some put in astonishing hours, and put up with a lot of crap, but I'm very grateful they do it, even politicans and parties I dislike. having a functioning political system is critical to having a functioning society, even with its own dysfunctions, I'm very grateful we have it. But unfortunately I do think major elements of our political system are currently going in the wrong direction, the next century is going to be extremely challenging.

PhilOssophy

A lad who can be in 2 places at once......

Odyssey 2005

PhilOssophy wrote: »

A lad who can be in 2 places at once......

Unless you live in Kerry or Mayo,you're out of luck :)