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E-scooter court case

  • 23-10-2019 3:25pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭ ...Ghost...


    Was anyone there? I missed the case and really wanted to be there for it. Late to the party :(


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,971 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    Was anyone there? I missed the case and really wanted to be there for it. Late to the party :(

    Back in December sometime. The barrister thinks some of them are legal even though the statute is clear, but the poor barrister has to be able to make money so can research all they want.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators Posts: 81,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭ biko


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/first-cases-of-riding-e-scooters-without-insurance-brought-to-court-1.4057797

    First cases of riding e-scooters without insurance brought to court
    Two incidents brought by same garda go before District Court in Dublin


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,884 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    Del2005 wrote: »
    Back in December sometime. The barrister thinks some of them are legal even though the statute is clear, but the poor barrister has to be able to make money so can research all they want.

    Yeah that stood out for me too when I read it this morning. Bizarre, isn't it? Of course they are illegal as is. Mechanically propelled vehicle.

    The only thing legal is a pedelec eBike, 250W max (no way to check this though, unless you put a power meter on it), only works while pedaling and motor cuts off at 25km/h

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,971 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    unkel wrote: »
    Yeah that stood out for me too when I read it this morning. Bizarre, isn't it? Of course they are illegal as is. Mechanically propelled vehicle.

    The only thing legal is a pedelec eBike, 250W max (no way to check this though, unless you put a power meter on it), only works while pedaling and motor cuts off at 25km/h

    I'd say that's why the Garda went for the scooter and unicycle, no way to argue that they are a pedelec.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    Should be thrown out when legislation is brought in, hopefully no helmet requirement but if there is I spotted this https://hovding.com


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,884 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    Del2005 wrote: »
    I'd say that's why the Garda went for the scooter and unicycle, no way to argue that they are a pedelec.

    I feel sorry for the poor feckers that got their expensive gear taken off them and having to appear in court - they were probably only trying to go to work. They might not even have been aware they were illegally riding a mechanically propelled vehicle

    The Garda is just doing his job though, and with bringing them to court, he is probably doing the community a favour by forcing politicians to speed up bringing in some sort of legislation / discussion in the Dail

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,911 ✭✭✭ creedp


    unkel wrote: »
    I feel sorry for the poor feckers that got their expensive gear taken off them and having to appear in court - they were probably only trying to go to work. They might not even have been aware they were illegally riding a mechanically propelled vehicle

    The Garda is just doing his job though, and with bringing them to court, he is probably doing the community a favour by forcing politicians to speed up bringing in some sort of legislation / discussion in the Dail

    It must really frustrate them to see the streets littered with them each day. If the Gardai consider them illegal why aren't they pulling them all off the street. Maybe they are only illegal when a Garda take an exception to one?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,884 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    creedp wrote: »
    Maybe they are only illegal when a Garda take an exception to one?

    Isn't that the case with everything? I know some people who never have tax or NCT on their car, and they've never had their car confiscated either (despite being stopped at checkpoints in the Dublin area)

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    unkel wrote: »
    I feel sorry for the poor feckers that got their expensive gear taken off them and having to appear in court - they were probably only trying to go to work. They might not even have been aware they were illegally riding a mechanically propelled vehicle

    Surely their must be some responsibility on retailers knowingly selling a product which is illegal to use in a public place. The law was always pretty clear here, despite the best efforts of some retailers to muddy the waters.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,884 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    liamog wrote: »
    Surely their must be some responsibility on retailers knowingly selling a product which is illegal to use in a public place.

    I'd say most people bought their scooter online. Mostly from other jurisdictions?

    And no, I don't feel it is the responsibility of a retailer to inform their customers about legalities*. I'm sick of only being able to buy one pack of aspirin at a time because of these nanny state restrictions. And if I buy more than a couple of bottles of wine, I'd appreciate if I don't get a (legally endorsed) lecture of how many alcoholic measures I am supposed to drink per day.

    Sorry that almost looks like a bit of a rant :p

    *that said, I don't think any retailer in Ireland sells mechanically propelled vehicles (that are road illegal) other than pedelecs which are fully road legal. Or do they?

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,884 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    A little check. Halfords - probably the main retailer of bikes and stuff in this country - do indeed sell scooters. On the page of the most popular one it states in a giant font that:

    "Please note that this scooter is not to be used on public highways, only on private property with the owner's consent."

    Which is what you were after, liamog, isn't it? Seems fully responsible.

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    unkel wrote: »
    A little check. Halfords - probably the main retailer of bikes and stuff in this country - do indeed sell scooters. On the page of the most popular one it states in a giant font that:

    "Please note that this scooter is not to be used on public highways, only on private property with the owner's consent."

    Which is what you were after, liamog, isn't it? Seems fully responsible.

    Ahh the old wink wink nudge nudge defence. They've certainly covered themselves.

    I believe Three used to sell the Xiaomi M365, maybe they stopped due to the lack of legality. I'm sure they had many customers purchase them for use scooting around their home.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,911 ✭✭✭ creedp


    unkel wrote: »
    Isn't that the case with everything? I know some people who never have tax or NCT on their car, and they've never had their car confiscated either (despite being stopped at checkpoints in the Dublin area)

    I agree fully. However it is one thing to not being bothered to check the tax disc on a car but its another thing to stand by as multiple illegal 'vehicles' scoot past you on the street ... stretches the limits of the Gardaí credibility .. not surprising really though given your quote above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,035 ✭✭✭ joeysoap


    I think in all honesty if I were a Guard I wouldn’t see or bother with them either.

    Which is worse on our streets , diesel 4x4 or these ? The fact that government hasn’t legislated for them by now says more about our politicians than about the users. Too busy pushing buttons.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭ sabat


    I saw gardai move aside the barrier on Clonliffe Rd on a match day this summer to let one through.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,136 ✭✭✭✭ Rayne Wooney


    Interesting to see what happens, I don’t know how there is any ambiguity relating to these as they are clearly within the definition of an MPV, anyone using them currently is breaking the law as it stands without a doubt.

    Now a common sense approach is probably needed, are these 15km/h things more dangerous than the 1000s of guys doing their best Bradley Wiggins interpretation in the mornings/evenings around the city centre?


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    Now a common sense approach is probably needed, are these 15km/h things more dangerous than the 1000s of guys doing their best Bradley Wiggins interpretation in the mornings/evenings around the city centre?

    It's interesting how you identify the supposedly dangerous actor as the cyclist in one case but the "15kph" inanimate scooter in the other (is there even an e-scooter with a top speed that low?).

    Bicycles are safer at high speed because they have larger wheels, shorter stopping distances, and greater stability.

    More importantly, they've been on the roads since before there were cars.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,574 ✭✭✭ Jude13


    unkel wrote: »
    Yeah that stood out for me too when I read it this morning. Bizarre, isn't it? Of course they are illegal as is. Mechanically propelled vehicle.

    The only thing legal is a pedelec eBike, 250W max (no way to check this though, unless you put a power meter on it), only works while pedaling and motor cuts off at 25km/h

    Not as clear cut as that. There have been cases where people have mitigated their actions from a car cutting out and 'free-wheeling' causing an accident as the car was no longer mechanically propelled at the time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,604 ✭✭✭✭ ted1


    creedp wrote: »
    It must really frustrate them to see the streets littered with them each day. If the Gardai consider them illegal why aren't they pulling them all off the street. Maybe they are only illegal when a Garda take an exception to one?

    Time and resources. Bigger fish to fry


  • Registered Users Posts: 295 ✭✭ AhHaor


    I'd be interested to hear further details here, they're seriously unlucky if they were just randomly stopped. I wonder if there were other circumstances. I have gone through a road checkpoint and went by a crash and both were heavily policed and actually stopped at the checkpoint to have a chat with the guard who recommended I get a high viz jacket to go with my lights.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,971 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    Should be thrown out when legislation is brought in, hopefully no helmet requirement but if there is I spotted this https://hovding.com

    Doesn't matter what legislation comes in. They are currently using an MPV without insurance, licence, tax, etc. If someone gets caught driving a car uninsured they get the points even if they insure it the next day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,971 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    unkel wrote: »
    I feel sorry for the poor feckers that got their expensive gear taken off them and having to appear in court - they were probably only trying to go to work. They might not even have been aware they were illegally riding a mechanically propelled vehicle

    The Garda is just doing his job though, and with bringing them to court, he is probably doing the community a favour by forcing politicians to speed up bringing in some sort of legislation / discussion in the Dail

    They were using an MPV illegally. Ignorance of the law is no defence. Where do you draw the line on illegal MPV use? On the continent its legal for 14 year olds to ride mopeds, what if a 14 year old here was caught on a moped going to school. The lads on the scramblers are only having a laugh, they don't know that you need insurance or licences for off vehicles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,911 ✭✭✭ creedp


    joeysoap wrote: »
    The fact that government hasn’t legislated for them by now says more about our politicians than about the users. Too busy pushing buttons.

    Or maybe not busy enough??


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    AhHaor wrote: »
    I'd be interested to hear further details here, they're seriously unlucky if they were just randomly stopped. I wonder if there were other circumstances.

    I did rise an eyebrow to their second names, looked like they were picked on, if the first two charged were a Ryan and an O'Flaherty after leaving work in Google it might have made the guard look a little less racist.


  • Registered Users Posts: 580 ✭✭✭ kaahooters


    I did rise an eyebrow to their second names, looked like they were picked on, if the first two charged were a Ryan and an O'Flaherty after leaving work in Google it might have made the guard look a little less racist.

    this makes you look more racist then the guard tbfh, they could have been tourists, it dosent matter who the guard pulled, all that matters is the outcome at this point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,604 ✭✭✭✭ ted1


    I did rise an eyebrow to their second names, looked like they were picked on, if the first two charged were a Ryan and an O'Flaherty after leaving work in Google it might have made the guard look a little less racist.

    I’d hazard are a guess and say that a larger majority of people riding E-Scooters have foreign sounding surnames.


    To imply the guard is racist is down right daft


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    I'm not calling him a racist it just looked like it on paper. Of all the people on scooters it had to be two non nationals who ended up in front of the judge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,604 ✭✭✭✭ ted1


    I'm not calling him a racist it just looked like it on paper. Of all the people on scooters it had to be two non nationals who ended up in front of the judge.

    I’m sure the defendants have a nationality. I don’t see how anyone would say it read as racist.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,467 ✭✭✭✭ drunkmonkey


    ted1 wrote: »
    I’m sure the defendants have a nationality. I don’t see how anyone would say it read as racist.

    I thought it was odd the way the first two appearing in court were not Irish or maybe second generation that's all. It's the first thing that hit me yesterday when I read the story.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    The obvious reason is that Irish-born people are law abiding folk who never break the rules.

    That's why there are hardly any speed cameras or traffic light cameras in Ireland. We don't need them because no-one breaks the law!


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