Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119560345#Comment_119560345

Beef price is up but not as much with the dairy-beef animals. And there’s not an awful lot out of that dairy-beef anyway, given the costs and work involved.

If milk powder goes up that much, and there’s nothing to suggest it won’t, then lads won’t buy good beef calves never mind bad ones.

It’s cost me the bones of €300 to get a calf to it’s first birthday the last 3 years, not including purchase price. Add on extra costs for milk powder, meal, fertiliser, contractor, and every little thing, and it’ll be north of €450 very quickly.

No amount of spin in the media, from Teagasc or Glanbia or the processors, will make it worthwhile to buy/rear calves. What’ll happen them then?

dh1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119560243#Comment_119560243

Is that in regards your own situation or a nationwide solution.

If nationwide couldn't see alot if part-time suclker farmers looking for the additional work rearing calves when there is limited returns out of it also.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119562177#Comment_119562177

Less work than sucklers if you put in an auto calf feeder. Trust me I've done both.

My own situation will see sucklers gone but I think it's also the desired outcome at dept and teagasc level.

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119560243#Comment_119560243

The dairy herd takes care of it’s problem and rears it calves, simple

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119562509#Comment_119562509

That is what I am hearing from suckler farmers every day. I have no problem with that, I do actually rear my own calves and love doing it.

Wait til these suckler men are losing their rented land to deeper dairy pockets in order to rear these calves. They'll not be quite so smug about the dairy industry taking care of its own problem then. Its happening around here already.

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119562608#Comment_119562608

Dairy farmer keeping calves …what will that do for beef prices ….suckler man will have same problem as now with all the extra beef animals

suckler man has every much right to earn a living as the dairy man …I loved keeping all the calves and rearing them …great to keep money together but no profit when u sit down and do proper costs .was at a contract rearing even yesterday …an ex suckler farmer and I’d say a v good one by looks of it …sucklers are gone and now contract rearing for a dairy farmer ..dosnt know himself from workload and financial point of view …difference is night and day

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119562608#Comment_119562608

Well when the dairy farmer takes this extra land to rear the black rats of KYA breeding and the Jex to beef or stores he will very quickly realise he has being getting a rob for calves up to this point and will quickly stop rearing them. The Ai stations have a lot to answer for all the poor calves being born, the dairy man has to wake up and produce a better product and rear the calves that they are viable to the beef industry. Sucklers will stay the course on the farms that the suit the lifestyle Andy the landscape.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119562656#Comment_119562656

Absolutely Jay, he has every right to make a living. The point I am trying to hammer home is that they are becoming obsolete. 60% and rising of our beef is from dairy cross cattle. As you said, if live export stops, they are totally finished as it will be a bonanza for processors. As much as I would like sucklers to prosper there is no magic higher value premium market for them over dairy cross.

Won’t be too long before we will need to go to Dublin zoo to see a cow. The whole thing has shifted in to overdrive

K.G.

If the export of calves goes it will put a dent in dairy farmers but it will obliterate the beef industry the only winner is the processors

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563270#Comment_119563270

Approx 180k calves exported this year. Out that into the system and its the equivalent of adding between 10-15% to the weekly kill numbers but only add approx 5-10% to the kgs of produced. Factor in a reduced slaughter age and there is a further reduction in carcase weight.

Beef farmers will reduce numbers and look towards the eco schemes. This will have a huge knock on effect as it will back up calves not just till weaning but until yearling stage. Could you imagine dairy farmers having to hold the majority of calves to yearling stage and longer. This is going to have serious impacts on dairy farms. It would be a worse case scenario for cross bred herd. Where do we see the calf price going even in a situation like this. It's going to collapse all calves. Just look at the JEX in the spring. It's tough to find a martyr to even take them away for free. This is where the whole system is going for calves if exports go. The days of calves for kebabs is also closing in

All leads back to the kernel of the issue, calf genetic potential. There is no point in debating it, it has dropped hugely. I have both Suckler to beef and calf to beef systems with a 35/65 split. Quality stock always pays. Dairy farmers have to be now looking at their system as to how to add more genetic potential to their calves. This won't be just focusing on the bull, but also on the cow.

Continuing on the current path of breeding a high % of stock with poor genetic potential and leading to a collapse of large group of farmers industry, surely there is an ethical responsibility. Remember that dairy farmers need beef farmers, and beef farmers need dairy farmers. It has to be collective in what is done

In summary to resolve the issue if exports go are the following factors

1. Rehash to EBI to increase cow live weight by 30kg ( potential to at 15kg to carcase weight. Potential to weight a % of cow herd could work here

2. A scheme for bred societies to work on carcase weight. Great rid of the crap.

3. All calves to be registered with a sire ( maybe DNA). With calves staying of farms for 28 days this will allow it.

4. 3 weight recordings of dairy bred stock at approx 6month interval. This and the above would provide great data on the stock

As a great philosopher once said "fail to prepare, prepare to fail"

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563433#Comment_119563433

The majority of teagasc lead disciples would rather s&&t in their hands and clap then contemplate the above re changing cow type and using proper beef sires.....

Like you said it will all come to a head but on farm changes won't occur on the majority of farms till their forced too

K.G.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563433#Comment_119563433

I m not as sure as you that quality is going to solve the problem. Over the years processor s have always manipulated returns and schemes depending on the cattle stats.once calved heifer scheme. Prime Angus/Hereford.young Bulls to name a few.how often have they moved the goal posts a couple years later just when fellas have cattle numbers coming on line

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563795#Comment_119563795

There was a leading award winning dairy farmer on twitter while back claiming calf quality is urrelevant …..the days of a dairy farmer just picking easiest calving short gestation bull possible with no thought to carcass weight etc is quickly comming to an end .we have to produce better quality calves … if lads want to continue breeding jex animals compulsory sexed semen should be brought in .cows have gotten too small and led to smaller poor confirmation beef calves ….Tegasc. Promoted this with no thought of the beef farmer or beef ainmal ….calf slaughter been stopped is no bad thing as it’s tarnishing all of us with one brush

mr.stonewall

With consistent quality this leads to a better ADG. Having a calf with potential will encourage more farmers to take then on and reduce Sucklers numbers. It's as simple as that.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563433#Comment_119563433

Well thought out post.

K.G.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119564160#Comment_119564160

To be fair to you have great faith in the system.i am of the view that if it was all charolas in irelandthere would the same margin in producing beef.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119564428#Comment_119564428

I don't expect a dairy farmer to be welded to a calving jack in the spring time or dealing with downer cows. Breeding is about taking small steps over a period of time. Making big jumps in one direction leads to issues arsing in other.

On the factory margin. The sweet spot for them is the carcase in the 340-360kg bracket. Better uses of staff, chills, offal, haulage to boning halls etc. Trying to turn dairy beef stock around in 18 to 24 months is leading to an average carcase weight in the region of 220-260kg. This is biting the margin. Only for the cost of living crisis at the moment we would have more of an impact on beef price. Most of this beef is once the steak cuts are taken off, going through the mincer an onto a tray.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119564384#Comment_119564384

Dreamt out more like. Nothing is that simple to fix in the real world.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563646#Comment_119563646

Key here is working to move ahead of the posse. Having a reliable outlet for calves whether at 4 week or weanling stage is going to be key. Not having this will simply mean less litres in the tank

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119564637#Comment_119564637

The 4 points at the end are all easily achievable and could improve the end product in beef with little differ to the milk side.

The calf export is disappearing whether we like it or not. Doing simple things to improve the calf quality is only prudent. It won't make beef or dairy farmers rich but it may stop both going bang.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563795#Comment_119563795

Numbers and kgs of beef is the key. Sucklers are dying a slow death. Age profile and part time work is forcing this on most farms. There will always be schemes to direct the direction of the industry. The latest talk is the U24 slaughter. The same happens in the dairy side, SCC bonus, being QA, winter and spring bonus. In the past 10 years it has been A+B-C. Even glanbias pennies for planting tagged onto the cheque. Both industries are changing and always will be. Standing still is only going backwards.

Dairy farmers currently control 65% of the genetic potential of all Irish beef. Now stop and read that line again and let it sink in. I can only control what happens when the calf lands on the farms regarding health, thrive and cost. This week the FI had a piece on the collapse of carcase weights over the past 2 years. This mainly deals for stock born in 2018 and 2019. So sires picked in 2017 and 2018. What we have with the issue is like the Titanic steaming towards that iceberg. At the moment time is running out to make a slight change in direction. Otherwise it has the potential to take us all down

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119564702#Comment_119564702

Biggest problem is too many calves being offered for sale in a few weeks. Quality or no quality they all end up the same price.

cute geoge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119564786#Comment_119564786

That is the real crux ,no matter if you had a pwerfull calf that could swim the atlantic you are only getting a few quid for him when the glut hits the mart then why will dairy farmers bother their arse breeding quality

whelan2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119564786#Comment_119564786

Great prices from April on for calves.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119564883#Comment_119564883

Exactly. Suddenly they become valuable for often inferior stock. Can't beat the early calf as everyone knows.

mr.stonewall

I buy off a farmer milking north of 200 in cork and have been for the past number of years. First it started off as Angus. He was on holidays nearby and asked to call and see the stock, both calves and yearling A chat ensued and he saw some of my Suckler aubracs. He said he would try a few straws next year and I said I would take them bulls and heifers. Over the past few years he has upped his numbers of these and has a ready market. He has improved his Angus bull selection based on carcase weight. He had beef stock up to 10 years ago with the cows so he's knows the score. I do a tote of grade and weight, age and sire for his calves at the end of the slaughter year. Filtering them to average weight grade and age to bull. This has helped both of us immensely. Comparing this to the ICBF figures for the bulls, it stacks up for 90% of stock. There will always be one or 2 screws in every batch of calves. Both sectors working together can really be beneficial

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119565114#Comment_119565114

Sure the lads buying the calves in the mart won't even look at the figures. All they want is age it seems. They'll pay way over the odds for a soft calf blown up on adlib milk as opposed to a 5 star Angus eating crunch and straw with a correct birth date registration.

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119564816#Comment_119564816

Smart move would be to stop over listening to Tegasc and what’s in the journal every week and look at your own farm and see what works for you not what someone else tells u should ….the big glut of calves in spring is because the bulk of cows calve in a window from late jan to early march …why not calve from 10 jan on and what about it if there is April calvers ….what is wrong with calving a few in say august .milking all year …coops want a more streamline supply and most offer winter bonuses

with climate change now obvious ,droughts getting more common which takes away the advantage grass supposedly gives us …feeding cows in sheds in July/august getting as common as feeding them there in spring or autumn …..sea change of thought needed from advisory bodies

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119565200#Comment_119565200

I'd be optimistic overall, given that most farmers do what you suggest and are more skeptical of official advice than the portrayal of poster boys in the media might suggest.

Two farmers beside me have converted to dairy in the recent years (one in 2018, one in 2020). Both seem to be slightly changing their systems every year: calving earlier but letting the calving date run on into April, keeping their own beef calves til they're 12 months, bringing more BF into the herd, etc.

I'm only being nosy looking over the ditch and it's none of my business, but they seem to be making up their own minds based on what they see in front of them, rather than following the "industry advice" which claims to make them more efficient on paper.

There's hope out there if we ignore most of the media/industry spin.