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Martin Scorsese takes aim at Marvel

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    pixelburp wrote: »
    We do not need to go to bat for the MCU. It'll do ok on its own.

    That's true although when people love something they naturally get defensive to any criticism
    santana75 wrote: »
    I think Coppola is right on this one. The Marvel films have absolutely nothing to say. They're empty films, nothing of any real substance is going on there at all. The Godfather was made in 1972, but its still being discovered by new generations and its still being talked about. 40 odd years time I dont think anyone will even remember any of these Marvel films let alone be still discussing them.
    He's completely wrong. Black Panther had something to say about been black in America and Africa. You and Cappola just haven't looked hard enough. I 100% guarantee you they will be remembered and still be discussing them. The 23 film infinity saga is something that cinema has never done before.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    santana75 wrote: »
    I think Coppola is right on this one. The Marvel films have absolutely nothing to say. They're empty films, nothing of any real substance is going on there at all. The Godfather was made in 1972, but its still being discovered by new generations and its still being talked about. 40 odd years time I dont think anyone will even remember any of these Marvel films let alone be still discussing them.

    Marvel tales are for the main part very simple tales of good vs evil. The mistake is to assume that this automatically makes them lesser films. They will absolutely be remembered you on 40 years if not fpr their quality (which I'm not debating because it's pointless) but for what they've done in changing cinema, for successfully creating the first cinematic universe, it is a huge achievement and not one that is easily done or forgotten.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    I don't agree with films needing to have something to say, or something to teach. In fact I think they should be considered firmly in the context of entertainment unless they are documentaries or biopics. If people look to other movies to learn things then they will be misinformed.

    I haven't seen Joker yet but it is controversial for negatively portraying mentally ill people. It perpetuates a stereotype that they are violent and dangerous apparently. People say it should communicate that mentally ill people are more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators.

    Well that's true but why should the film take it upon itself to educate people of that. People who become dangerous and violent to other people during a psychotic episode are in the minority but they are far from uncommon. Would it not be lame to agonize over giving a complete picture of mentally ill people in a film about a violent psychotic killer?

    People should be educated about such things explicitly. This sort of subject should be what social education teaches in schools, and replace religion and mindfulness and whatever other indoctrination is being done these days.


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭RickBlaine


    There's still decent films on in the likes of the ifi/lighthouse. I haven't been to a Cineworld type place in a year or two I'd say. I check the listings every Friday and never anything that interests me, just the usual combo of Spider-Man, Star Wars, comic book franchise tripe.

    Also, you don't get many open mouthed chewers or phone checkers in ifi/lighthouse either compared to my last experience in the point odeon!

    I saw Avengers: Infinity War in The Lighthouse.

    For film makers like Scorcese or Coppola to rubbish the MCU in such a public and scathing way is, I think, an insult to the millions of people of all ages who have enjoyed these stories for the last 12 years and have considerable emotional investment in its characters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭Ironicname


    RickBlaine wrote:
    For film makers like Scorcese or Coppola to rubbish the MCU in such a public and scathing way is, I think, an insult to the millions of people of all ages who have enjoyed these stories for the last 12 years and have considerable emotional investment in its characters.

    If you are insulted by someone else's opinion, you should re-evaluate to see what it is that makes you feel so easily offended.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,206 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Ken Loach up now :pac:

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1186380912428228608?s=21

    Veteran Male Directors Talking About Superhero Movies will be a feature-length documentary soon, and I’m there for it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    Ken Loach up now :pac:

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1186380912428228608?s=21

    Veteran Male Directors Talking About Superhero Movies will be a feature-length documentary soon, and I’m there for it.
    Ken Loach movies are created by a commune of starving artists who donate all proceeds to the local community.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    santana75 wrote: »
    I think Coppola is right on this one. The Marvel films have absolutely nothing to say. They're empty films, nothing of any real substance is going on there at all. The Godfather was made in 1972, but its still being discovered by new generations and its still being talked about. 40 odd years time I dont think anyone will even remember any of these Marvel films let alone be still discussing them.
    That's the bar now? Scorsese has never made a movie as good as The Godfather either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭correction


    FunLover18 wrote: »
    Marvel tales are for the main part very simple tales of good vs evil. The mistake is to assume that this automatically makes them lesser films. They will absolutely be remembered you on 40 years if not fpr their quality (which I'm not debating because it's pointless) but for what they've done in changing cinema, for successfully creating the first cinematic universe, it is a huge achievement and not one that is easily done or forgotten.

    This is probably true but I don't think it will be a positive memory. In the same way we look at the likes of Coppola and Scorsese influencing cinema for the better in the 70's, we'll look at these in the opposite way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    mikhail wrote: »
    That's the bar now? Scorsese has never made a movie as good as The Godfather either.

    Goodfellas was a much better film, the godfather is a bit overratted


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    Greyfox wrote: »
    Goodfellas was a much better film, the godfather is a bit overratted
    That is your opinion. Critics and directors on the Sight and Sound 2012 list, to pick one highly reputable poll, disagree. The imdb top 250 also says audiences disagree. You're entitled to your opinion, but don't act like it's fact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,723 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    Greyfox wrote: »
    Goodfellas was a much better film, the godfather is a bit overratted


    Its really not. Goodfellas is good but not on the same level at all. Goodfellas is incredibly overrated. Its a good film not really that great in comparison to Godfather.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,689 ✭✭✭sky88


    its all opinions in the end i disagree heavily with them as think there just trying to pick on the popular thing.

    I want to go see the popcorn movies honestly thats what going to the cinema is to be wowd and for me that's big budget films i prefer. If i want a film that is being artisic and makes you think ill generally wait till it is released on dvd/streaming whatever

    the this is not cinema is so stupid everything that is a movie is cinema yes some of its great and some of its terrible but thats what its made for. Scorsese probaley had similar comments made about him in the 70s by older directors and film-makers

    i think as well using oscars and box office just because it wins oscars it isnt great and just because its biggest box office numbers doesnt mean its great ethier


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    mikhail wrote: »
    That is your opinion. Critics and directors on the Sight and Sound 2012 list, to pick one highly reputable poll, disagree. The imdb top 250 also says audiences disagree. You're entitled to your opinion, but don't act like it's fact.

    Where did I say it was a fact? This is a place for opinions and not everyone thinks its a great film.
    Its really not. Goodfellas is good but not on the same level at all. Goodfellas is incredibly overrated. Its a good film not really that great in comparison to Godfather.

    Goodfella's is far more entertaining, it shows the good and bad of gangsters better than any other film. Godfather is a really good film, there's just much better films out there.
    sky88 wrote: »
    its all opinions in the end i disagree heavily with them as think there just trying to pick on the popular thing.
    That's the thing, people are unfairly critisising them because their popular.. although it tends to happen with most popular things anyway


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    Greyfox wrote: »
    Where did I say it was a fact? This is a place for opinions and not everyone thinks its a great film.
    I'd reply, but this is going off topic. Let's leave it here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭artvanderlay


    I agree with Scorsese. The early Marvel films were enjoyable fluff (Blade 1-2, first couple of X-Men movies) but now they are so long-winded, po-faced and, worst of all, boring. I have watched most of them, and there is also a smugness about them now that really turns me off. They are like the McDonald's of cinema; ubiquitous, crazy popular, but not really good for anybody really.


    I hate that something like Avengers Endgame cost around $400 million: that could have made 40 x 10 million budget movies, or even 10 x 40 million budget movies: movies that could have been very interesting, but that never get made, because the executives in charge want to bet big on a sure thing rather than take a few risks on films that mightn't make that much, but could be absolutely brilliant. It sickens me really. I also think any actor who takes Marvels money is a sell-out and a whore. Most of them are piss poor actors anyways. What did Robert Downey Jnr ever do really, apart from play Iron Man? Any other movie he did outside Marvel usually flopped, and it's a long way from Chaplin!


    I don't even think a few flops would stop Marvel and the likes dominating today's cinema. These days, it's mostly for bored kids with too much pocket money, and also for non-discerning cinema-goers that will just go to any ****e, and that love to shove their fat, stupid faces with popcorn and sugar. Scorsese is a legend. The directors of Marvel movies are nobodies, hailed only by fanboys with arrested development.


    Rant over :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    I have watched most of them, and there is also a smugness about them now that really turns me off. They are like the McDonald's of cinema; ubiquitous, crazy popular, but not really good for anybody really.

    I don't even think a few flops would stop Marvel and the likes dominating today's cinema. These days, it's mostly for bored kids with too much pocket money, and also for non-discerning cinema-goers that will just go to any ****e, and that love to shove their fat, stupid faces with popcorn and sugar. Scorsese is a legend. The directors of Marvel movies are nobodies, hailed only by fanboys with arrested development.


    Rant over :)

    I think it's arrogant and childish to say their not really good for anybody when very clearly the evidence proves these are the films most people want. I think the smugness is your imagination and you nee to accept that you have an unpopular opinion. Your rant is just trivial gibberish, actually your post insults the adults who enjoyed magnificent films like Infinity War, CA: Winter soldier, Thor Ragnorak and Black Panther. How would you like it if I insulted your opinion? Scorsese is a legend which is why actors and directors are right to get annoyed when a legend unfairly dismisses there work


  • Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭ErnestBorgnine


    Greyfox wrote: »
    I think it's arrogant and childish to say their not really good for anybody when very clearly the evidence proves these are the films most people want. I think the smugness is your imagination and you nee to accept that you have an unpopular opinion. Your rant is just trivial gibberish, actually your post insults the adults who enjoyed magnificent films like Infinity War, CA: Winter soldier, Thor Ragnorak and Black Panther. How would you like it if I insulted your opinion? Scorsese is a legend which is why actors and directors are right to get annoyed when a legend unfairly dismisses there work

    Just a guess but he probably wouldn't care?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,372 ✭✭✭Homelander


    Black Panther is certainly not a 'magnificant' film. Totally over-rated and really not much more than competent, the Oscar nomination was an utter joke. I enjoy all the Marvel films to varying degrees, but few are worth of being described as 'magnificent'. I'd say Winter Soldier and Thor: Ragnarok, maybe the first Iron Man, are about the only ones that would still be described as great movies into the distant future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    I agree with Scorsese. The early Marvel films were enjoyable fluff (Blade 1-2, first couple of X-Men movies) but now they are so long-winded, po-faced and, worst of all, boring. I have watched most of them, and there is also a smugness about them now that really turns me off. They are like the McDonald's of cinema; ubiquitous, crazy popular, but not really good for anybody really.


    I hate that something like Avengers Endgame cost around $400 million: that could have made 40 x 10 million budget movies, or even 10 x 40 million budget movies: movies that could have been very interesting, but that never get made, because the executives in charge want to bet big on a sure thing rather than take a few risks on films that mightn't make that much, but could be absolutely brilliant. It sickens me really. I also think any actor who takes Marvels money is a sell-out and a whore. Most of them are piss poor actors anyways. What did Robert Downey Jnr ever do really, apart from play Iron Man? Any other movie he did outside Marvel usually flopped, and it's a long way from Chaplin!


    I don't even think a few flops would stop Marvel and the likes dominating today's cinema. These days, it's mostly for bored kids with too much pocket money, and also for non-discerning cinema-goers that will just go to any ****e, and that love to shove their fat, stupid faces with popcorn and sugar. Scorsese is a legend. The directors of Marvel movies are nobodies, hailed only by fanboys with arrested development.


    Rant over :)
    People put too much value on what they consume, define themselves by it.

    Regardless whether I watch taxi driver or I watch the avengers, I’m just watching a movie. One activity is not superior to the other. The only differences are how much I enjoy it, and what conversations I can have about it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    Just a guess but he probably wouldn't care?

    Saying you dont like Marval films or that you think their overratted is perfectly ok. Saying the films are for non-discerning cinema-goers is talking complete and utter nonsense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭artvanderlay


    Greyfox wrote: »
    Saying you dont like Marval films or that you think their overratted is perfectly ok. Saying the films are for non-discerning cinema-goers is talking complete and utter nonsense.


    I stand by my opinion, but it is just an opinion. Don't get too worked up by differences in opinions: you'll live longer! :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭ErnestBorgnine


    Greyfox wrote: »
    Saying you dont like Marval films or that you think their overratted is perfectly ok. Saying the films are for non-discerning cinema-goers is talking complete and utter nonsense.

    That's a matter of opinion that can be discussed or ignored.

    People are allowed to have opinions that you don't think are 'perfectly ok'


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭artvanderlay


    I think since the 80s, mainstream cinema has become more and more risk averse and is now primarily aimed at the teenage/non-discerning market i.e. the people that will go to the cinema no matter what and spend their money: it's their night out and they are going to watch whatever is out that week, regardless of quality (it's like the people that watch Mrs Brown's Boy: they would probably just be looking at tv anyways and would watch anything in that timeslot :pac:). I have no problem with people liking Marvel movies and the likes, but when there is very little else to choose from at the cinema, I do have a problem with that. I also think there are too many virtue-signalling/oscar-bait movies too, with not enough entertaining, mainstream adult movies. Whatever happened to adult thrillers? With good scripts, actors, directors involved? Marvel movies cost a lot, but are not great films. Something like Gone Girl, which I think was great, had a great cast, a great director and a really good script and cost €60 million. That would be regarded as a fairly big budget for a thriller like that. I'd like to see more movies like this, even with smaller budgets, with more genuine adult themes that can be dissected afterwards.



    I get why kids like Marvel movies. When I was a child I loved the original Star Wars trilogy; I thought it was the greatest thing ever and had lots of the action figures. Then I watched it a few years back, and I thought the script and dialogue was cringe-worthy. The visuals were, and still are, spectacular though, so I can commend Lucas for that. These Marvel movies don't even have that going for them though: their washed out visuals/jaded grey look, and the sombre mood are ****ing ire-inducing to watch. Give me a kitschy Superman flying up to the window of the Daily Planet in Superman 2 and asking "General, would you care to step outside?" any day over anything in the Avengers movies. Plus anything with Jeremy Renner in it is **** by default :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    I think since the 80s, mainstream cinema has become more and more risk averse and is now primarily aimed at the teenage/non-discerning market i.e. the people that will go to the cinema no matter what and spend their money: it's their night out and they are going to watch whatever is out that week, regardless of quality (it's like the people that watch Mrs Brown's Boy: they would probably just be looking at tv anyways and would watch anything in that timeslot :pac:). I have no problem with people liking Marvel movies and the likes, but when there is very little else to choose from at the cinema, I do have a problem with that. I also think there are too many virtue-signalling/oscar-bait movies too, with not enough entertaining, mainstream adult movies. Whatever happened to adult thrillers? With good scripts, actors, directors involved? Marvel movies cost a lot, but are not great films. Something like Gone Girl, which I think was great, had a great cast, a great director and a really good script and cost €60 million. That would be regarded as a fairly big budget for a thriller like that. I'd like to see more movies like this, even with smaller budgets, with more genuine adult themes that can be dissected afterwards.



    I get why kids like Marvel movies. When I was a child I loved the original Star Wars trilogy; I thought it was the greatest thing ever and had lots of the action figures. Then I watched it a few years back, and I thought the script and dialogue was cringe-worthy. The visuals were, and still are, spectacular though, so I can commend Lucas for that. These Marvel movies don't even have that going for them though: their washed out visuals/jaded grey look, and the sombre mood are ****ing ire-inducing to watch. Give me a kitschy Superman flying up to the window of the Daily Planet in Superman 2 and asking "General, would you care to step outside?" any day over anything in the Avengers movies. Plus anything with Jeremy Renner in it is **** by default :P

    Ultimately that's because less people will go to the cinema for Gone Girl and studio execs know this, its a sad fact but its a fact. Most people want bang for there buck when they go to the cinema which is why special effects laden films will always dominate, most people want a spectacle. Most people want something that looks a lot better on the big screen and its here the likes of Infinity war really delivers. As it happens I waited and seen Gone girl for free and its a superb film, I would of only enjoyed the film a little bit more in the cinema. Lots of stupid people pay into the cinema to watch stupid films, this will never change and sadly it means more stupid films will get made including cheap horror films or romantic comedys. It is sad that more original films are not been made but the film industry was like that before Marvel became popular. For now I'm not too bothered as I feel Marvel films are delivering the goods as even their weakest films are watchable.

    I personally don't know how anybody can say the visuals of infinity war where not spectacular, its like watching Jurassic park in 1993 and not been impressed with the special effects. Marvel have done something Cinema has never seen before. Their films are on an epic scale that no other film franchise can or will ever match including Star Wars, they provide a huge mythology which makes fans want to watch the other films in the franchise and talk a lot more about the films which is golddust for film profits. The truth is almost all the Marvel films are getting good reviews so any talk of been bad for cinema can only be relevant if the films were getting panned by the critics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭Ardent


    Marvel pushes the envelope from time to time with the odd flagship movie or blockbuster (e.g., original Iron Man, Infinity War), but in between they push out a lot of low quality cookie-cutter rubbish. Films like Ant Man, GOTG, Captain Marvel and Black Panther. It's quite tedious at this stage.

    The last worthwhile super hero movie I saw was Spiderman: Into The Spiderverse. There's a movie that at least breaks the mould and does something different.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Gone Girl made just under 370 million.

    Once Upon A Time ... In Hollywood made almost the same on a budget of 90 million. These movies are still getting made and they're making money but let's not pretend that either were "indie" or that QT and Fincher are underdogs in a superhero wolrd. The real underdogs are the likes of Booksmart which totally bombed despjte being one of the funniest film of the year. Or Wild Rose or the recent American Woman with Sienna Miller.

    Also worth noting the last Marvel movie was in July (?) and the next one isn't until May.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    There's no business like showbusiness

    Without the Marvel movies, attendance in the cinemas would be a lot less, leading to theaters closing and less opportunities for other movies to be shown.


  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don’t go to the cinema anymore. I’ve checked the listings many times but rarely see anything I’d want to pay for or invest time in.

    Terminator 6? Iron Man 4? Avengers 7? Nah not for me.

    They just don’t make original movies anymore.
    But I respect that the majority seem to like these movies.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    MaceFace wrote: »
    There's no business like showbusiness

    Without the Marvel movies, attendance in the cinemas would be a lot less, leading to theaters closing and less opportunities for other movies to be shown.

    If it wasn't Marvel, it'd be something else - they didn't invent the blockbuster. Cinemas have been closing anyway due to the home cinema experience & steaming; while Disney are forcing chains (American ones anyway) to accept lower takes on their big tier films like Star Wars, the obvious knock on being more showings to scrape back lost profit. By and large blockbusters nearly always swallow up the lions share of showings anyway, and it isn't uncommon to find smaller releases ignored by my local. Cinemas are being kept alive by blockbusters, to the near exclusivity of blockbusters. The mid-budget crowdpleaser is pretty much extinct in theatres, and mostly the preserve of Netflix / Amazon now.


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