Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

lawrencesummers

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Luke Fitz was one of the best whingers we've ever had, didn't score many tries. I'd still start him every time

I corrected that slight, but very relevant error you made in your post.

Burkie1203

I see Ruaidhri O' Connor is now Simon Zebos agent

AdamD

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I see Ruaidhri O' Connor is now Simon Zebos agent

Hes either a complete idiot or deliberately oblivious to the reasons why Ireland don't pick players playing outside of the provinces.

OldRio

swiwi_ wrote: »

But it delays the start of the match!

This has to be a set up.

arsebiscuits1

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I see Ruaidhri O' Connor is now Simon Zebos agent

I stopped reading ROC a while back and then the Indo had the audacity to think his articles were premium content and I haven't read anything penned by him in months and my life is better for it.

molloyjh

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I see Ruaidhri O' Connor is now Simon Zebos agent

Hes always been a fan boy. Interesting stat. In the HEC final, 45 players took the field. Only 1 didn't make or attempt any tackles. Guess who that was.

Zebo can be sensational at times, but a complete non-entity others. A lot of people watching rugby see the big moments. The line breaks, tries, big hits etc. If a player puts in a couple of those then they've been excellent. The problem is that those are moments in 80 minute games. Theres a lot of rugby played before and after those too.

Zebo seems to have found a club that suits him. Allows him to enjoy the parts of the game he wants without putting too much pressure on him to deliver on the bits he doesn't. And they pay him well for it. More power to him, I bet we all wish we could find a number like that one. But thats not what we need in Ireland camp. Its certainly not what I'd be happy with in there.

yerrahbah

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I see Ruaidhri O' Connor is now Simon Zebos agent

Zebo gets the clicks

D15er

There's a chance to see something really interesting in the next two months with Stockdale at FB. If he's a disaster, put him back on the wing and give Keenan a chance. If he's rubbish, bring Dave Kearney back on the wing and give Conway a shot at FB. If Conway isn't a FB, put him back on the wing and give Shane Daly a go. By the time we find out if he's brutal, Larmour will be back.

Any of these are preferable to bringing back a guy who's not that good, never really was, and will be 33 at the next world cup.

aloooof

molloyjh wrote: »

But thats not what we need in Ireland camp. Its certainly not what I'd be happy with in there.

D15er wrote: »

Any of these are preferable to bringing back a guy who's not that good, never really was, and will be 33 at the next world cup.

Zebo won't (and I agree, shouldn't) be involved with Ireland while he's at Racing. But he's plenty good enough to be involved in Ireland camp.

rayd3

James Lowe completed zero tackles in his final European game of last season. James Lowe attempted zero tackles in his final European game of last season.

aloooof

rayd3 wrote: »

James Lowe completed zero tackles in his final European game of last season. James Lowe attempted zero tackles in his final European game of last season.

And Jordan Larmour completed 1 at FB, which is where Zebo was playing. Sometimes it can just be a function of how the opposition team is playing.

rayd3

aloooof wrote: »

And Jordan Larmour completed 1 at FB, which is where Zebo was playing. Sometimes it can just be a function of how the opposition team is playing.

Exactly. What was written above was absolute rubbish.

sydthebeat

rayd3 wrote: »

James Lowe completed zero tackles in his final European game of last season. James Lowe attempted zero tackles in his final European game of last season.

final european game of last season???
the ERC final?

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

final european game of last season???
the ERC final?

His last game, so Leinster's last game. i.e. v Saracens.

rayd3

sydthebeat wrote: »

final european game of last season???
the ERC final?

No, it wasn’t the final, though reading some bits before hand you’d think it was.

swiwi_

OldRio wrote: »

This has to be a set up.

Nah you’d be preaching to the converted

D15er

aloooof wrote: »

Zebo won't (and I agree, shouldn't) be involved with Ireland while he's at Racing. But he's plenty good enough to be involved in Ireland camp.

He absolutely is, and if he'd stayed in Munster he would be in camp right now, and he'd very likely be starting at 15 on Saturday.

But he decided he didn't want any of that.

aloooof

D15er wrote: »

He absolutely is, and if he'd stayed in Munster he would be in camp right now, and he'd very likely be starting at 15 on Saturday.

But he decided he didn't want any of that.

No disagreement with any of that. But it sounds a bit at odds with your previous post saying he was "not that good, never really was", but fair enough.

To move the conversation along, I'm looking forward to seeing how this team goes. Particularly Doris getting some meaningful gametime from the start and JGP off the bench. (Luke McGrath has fallen way down the pecking order for my money).

ionadnapokot

wittycynic wrote: »

Don't doubt his ability, the lad is very good. Hell, he might even score. But is he the best option in a game where we need massive points; the one who is most likely to get over the line? As I said, I'd have Stockdale on the wing (it's mad to take our most prolific available winger and stick him at fullback in this game), and have Daly or Henshaw at FB. That seems far more likely to generate a high score.

Hope I'm wrong and Keenan runs over three or four.

I do doubt Keenan’s ability to be a top class winger like Conway, Stockdale, Earls or a top class FB like Kearney when in their pomp.

My judgment is clearly premature and the Italy match is the perfect opportunity for him.
I cant see him as a long term prospects at international level primarily because he isn't fast or athletic enough to prosper against the best sides.

Which is exactly what made Stockdale irresistible back in Nov 2017.
Alas he is now at FB - Where Conway should be at Munster (leaving Zebo aside!).
With exactly the same personnel available for Italy and France i would have picked
Keegan; Conway, Ringrose, Aki, Daly
23. Henshaw (not as FB cover)

But on the other hand at least Andy Farrell is trying to develop options.
& its great to see Keegan & Connors been given the chance to earn their stripes.

Paul Smeenus

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I do doubt Keenan’s ability to be a top class winger like Conway, Stockdale, Earls or a top class FB like Kearney when in their pomp.

My judgment is clearly premature and the Italy match is the perfect opportunity for him.
I cant see him as a long term prospects at international level primarily because he isn't fast or athletic enough to prosper against the best sides.

Which is exactly what made Stockdale irresistible back in Nov 2017.
Alas he is now at FB - Where Conway should be at Munster (leaving Zebo aside!).
With exactly the same personnel available for Italy and France i would have picked
Keegan; Conway, Ringrose, Aki, Daly
23. Henshaw (not as FB cover)

But on the other hand at least Andy Farrell is trying to develop options.
& its great to see Keegan & Connors been given the chance to earn their stripes.

All you can ask is that youngsters get chances. Personally, if Baloucoune comes back as well as he was playing before his injury, I'd expect him to bump Keenan back down the pecking order.

ionadnapokot

Fingers crossed on Baloucoune.
Yes Farrell is doing his best to manage the back 3 depth. Selection wise i think he's got it wrong. But as i said at least he's trying.
Hopefully Ireland will be in a stronger and more organised position heading into the 6N in 2022 & WC.
Conway/Larmour; Baloucane & Lowe/Stockdale 23. Larmour/Conway would be nice. With Larmour left at 15 & Keegan his provincial backup.

Would love Farrell to rule by decree -
He should say....
"Oi! van Graan. NO! Just cause you play crap rugby doesnt mean Conway should. Conway is a FB. He'll stay FB. And HE'LL BE A FB 4EVA"

Hopefully Stockdale would be challenging Lowe for the 11 jersey. He's very lucky Farrell is showing faith in him to be a FB. Because he's not even a good winger these days.

kingofthekong

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I do doubt Keenan’s ability to be a top class winger like Conway, Stockdale, Earls or a top class FB like Kearney when in their pomp.

My judgment is clearly premature and the Italy match is the perfect opportunity for him.
I cant see him as a long term prospects at international level primarily because he isn't fast or athletic enough to prosper against the best sides.

Which is exactly what made Stockdale irresistible back in Nov 2017.
Alas he is now at FB - Where Conway should be at Munster (leaving Zebo aside!).
With exactly the same personnel available for Italy and France i would have picked
Keegan; Conway, Ringrose, Aki, Daly
23. Henshaw (not as FB cover)

But on the other hand at least Andy Farrell is trying to develop options.
& its great to see Keegan & Connors been given the chance to earn their stripes.

I would have had the same pessimism as yourself if I didn't know him personally...I went to school with Keenan,

And my opinion isn't based on whether i like the guy or not but based on me witnessing his trajectory and development as a player,

His trajectory is similar to what Ringrose did in Blackrock also - R.O'loughlin, Brewer, Dardis were all the stars of that age group through the age rep sides and no one had a clue who ringrose was till U20s....now look at Ringrose

In 4th year Keenan was on the colts seconds which is essentialy the 3rds for his age group and he was fairly average but improving,

In 5th year he got even better, no one wouldve given him a hoot of being anywhere near the Blackrock SCT team, sure enough in 6th year he improved even further and started on the wing for the SCT and selected ahead of far more fancied players in Blackrock. That Blackrock SCT when onto win the SCT.
Having never played any rep rugby he got called into the Ireland u20s team after an outstanding showing on the wing for Blackrock that season.

This was suprising and shocked a lot of people, he was in an U20s team with guys like Stockdale and Lyttle and others with far more rep rugby pedigree and he looked out of place on the selection sheet.

Again he proved people wrong and owned the wing jersey for the JWC. He ended up starting on the wing for the Irish 20s in the team that beat the New Zealand U20s for the first time ever and he was outstanding that day, they also went on to make their first ever final.

Then he got a Leinster academy contract this also raised eyebrows at the time, but no one expected him to graduate and feature for the the full Leinster team especially with far more hyped Talent/ athletes like Adam Byrne, T.O'brien, James Lowe, Kearneys, etc etc,,


He also had a season with the sevens where people would be sceptical of his ability and pace to play a whole season agains some of the fastest athletes in the game - he was heavily involved in getting the Irish 7s team onto the premier level of the game and giving them a shot at qualifying for the olympics, he then establishes himself as one of the best players in the squad until injury.

He then comes back from injury with the sevens and back available for leinster selection. He immediately hits the ground running with now injury rustyness and sure enough grows into one of the srtarting back 3's even when Kearneys, Lowe and Larmour are all fit,


He has an outstanding season and is called into the ireland squad and picked to start on the wing,

I would personally have doubted him again if not for his history of always stepping up and proving people wrong and improving as a player consistently,

I certainly wont be doubting his ability to have an impact at this level

molloyjh

rayd3 wrote: »

Exactly. What was written above was absolute rubbish.

It wasn't absolutely rubbish. It was an example of a wider issue. While Lowe didn't attempt any tackles vs Saracens he did win a couple of turnovers and he did field balls in the back field. I dont recall Zebo doing either vs Exeter. If you want, you could always analyse Zebos defensive performance in the final and cite some details that tell a different story. You know, discuss the point like a grown up.

Paul Smeenus

Yeah, hopefully Stockdale get the spring in his step back. He looks like he might be turning a corner, but we'll have to wait and see.

To be honest, I'm not convinced Keenan is any better than Lyttle, so hopefully Lyttle gets a sniff in the next year or so. Ulster are starting to rediscover their form, and if a confident, performing Ulster can supply Addison and Baloucoune to the back three stocks as well, it starts to look a lot more rosy.

Burkie1203

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Fingers crossed on Baloucoune.
Yes Farrell is doing his best to manage the back 3 depth. Selection wise i think he's got it wrong. But as i said at least he's trying.
Hopefully Ireland will be in a stronger and more organised position heading into the 6N in 2022 & WC.
Conway/Larmour; Baloucane & Lowe/Stockdale 23. Larmour/Conway would be nice. With Larmour left at 15 & Keegan his provincial backup.

Would love Farrell to rule by decree -
He should say....
"Oi! van Graan. NO! Just cause you play crap rugby doesnt mean Conway should. Conway is a FB. He'll stay FB. And HE'LL BE A FB 4EVA"

Hopefully Stockdale would be challenging Lowe for the 11 jersey. He's very lucky Farrell is showing faith in him to be a FB. Because he's not even a good winger these days.

I don't mind if Farrell gets it wrong now if we get a world cup SF or Final in 3 years time.

I would have loved to see Marmion and JGP be the 9s for this game and a different back row option on the bench but apart from that I like this team a lot.

rayd3

molloyjh wrote: »

It wasn't absolutely rubbish. It was an example of a wider issue. While Lowe didn't attempt any tackles vs Saracens he did win a couple of turnovers and he did field balls in the back field. I dont recall Zebo doing either vs Exeter. If you want, you could always analyse Zebos defensive performance in the final and cite some details that tell a different story. You know, discuss the point like a grown up.

Amazing, hailing the success of the Leinster back field against Saracens.

shootermacg

Stockdale will be a better full back than a winger. That makes sweet FO sense to me. Wingers are essentially the blondes of the team and Stockdale is a blonde with zero positional sense.

Wonder who Daly pissed off in camp? He's better to Keenan IMO, bigger, faster and stronger. What's going on there?

Burkie1203

shootermacg wrote: »

Wonder who Daly pissed off in camp? He's better to Keenan IMO, bigger, faster and stronger. What's going on there?

Maybe nobody and Keenan showed up better in training ......

aloooof

molloyjh wrote: »

It wasn't absolutely rubbish. It was an example of a wider issue. While Lowe didn't attempt any tackles vs Saracens he did win a couple of turnovers and he did field balls in the back field. I dont recall Zebo doing either vs Exeter. If you want, you could always analyse Zebos defensive performance in the final and cite some details that tell a different story. You know, discuss the point like a grown up.

Even if he didn't field any balls in the backfield in the final, I would still contend he's superior in the air than Lowe, tho.

Lowe is definitely far more physical in the tackle. Zebo has put in some brilliant last-ditch try saving tackles in his time tho. Zebo probably has the better boot too?

There's merits to both, and they have their similarities, in that attack is their strength and defence their weakness. But to say Zebo shouldn't even be in the camp (with the "if he was available / playing in Ireland" caveat) is going overboard imo.

sydthebeat

shootermacg wrote: »

Stockdale will be a better full back than a winger. That makes sweet FO sense to me. Wingers are essentially the blondes of the team and Stockdale is a blonde with zero positional sense.

Wonder who Daly pissed off in camp? He's better to Keenan IMO, bigger, faster and stronger. What's going on there?

Keenan has stood out at a higher standard than Daly has gotten to play to as yet.

That you think theres some vendetta against him is frankly absurd.