Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Former Former

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm a long time fan, advocate and defender of Toners, but he wasn't shafted by Joe.

Joe didn't set out to ruin Toners aspirations, he set out to win a world cup and got it wrong. Personalising a squad selection decision is futile in a professional game.

Well, from what we subsequently heard, Toner was never really in the running for the RWC. No one is going to convince me that Jean Kleyn was a better choice and I'd love to hear Joe's explanation for not picking him. The real one, not the bullsh*t he came out with.

salmocab

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm a long time fan, advocate and defender of Toners, but he wasn't shafted by Joe.

Joe didn't set out to ruin Toners aspirations, he set out to win a world cup and got it wrong. Personalising a squad selection decision is futile in a professional game.

I’m inclined to agree with this, he definitely made some big mistakes and whilst I don’t think it would have made much difference in the grand scheme it was a bad decision.

lawrencesummers

Former Former wrote: »

Well, from what we subsequently heard, Toner was never really in the running for the RWC. No one is going to convince me that Jean Kleyn was a better choice and I'd love to hear Joe's explanation for not picking him. The real one, not the bullsh*t he came out with.

If toner had travelled instead of kleyn then he would have had as little impact on the World Cup outcome as kleyn did. It’s irrelevant that toner didn’t travel outside of his own personal disappointment, because it made no difference to the team.

Had kleyn started the big games we lost then it’s different, but Kleyn was an extra

thomond2006

Kleyn wasn't a big factor in the games he played but he has delivered some monstrous performances for Munster.

aloooof

thomond2006 wrote: »

Kleyn wasn't a big factor in the games he played but he has delivered some monstrous performances for Munster.

The Sarries performance away was possibly his best performance for Munster. He’s having a good season.

Former Former

I don't think Toner would have made any difference to the RWC either, I'm just observing that it was very odd.

Dubinusa

New day for us! Exciting times! The malaise from the rwc will hopefully be gone. A new squad a new coaching team and hopefully a new philosophy.
While we all agree that some lads are being hard done by. We should have patience and hope! Bedding new lads is vital atm. The days of Joeball must be exorcised and we must move forward.
Depending on the opposition I think we will see a couple of changes in the 23 each game. This would be a smart play by Farrell. I hope that he doesn't fall for the over reliance on Murray/Sexton. If so we could be decked. Anyway, very excited for the weekend!

lawrencesummers

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Former Former wrote: »

I don't think Toner would have made any difference to the RWC either, I'm just observing that it was very odd.

Odd possibly, but definitely irrelevant and his dropping has led to a resurgence that may well get him back into the Irish team in the coming weeks.

molloyjh

Dubinusa wrote: »

New day for us! Exciting times! The malaise from the rwc will hopefully be gone. A new squad a new coaching team and hopefully a new philosophy.
While we all agree that some lads are being hard done by. We should have patience and hope! Bedding new lads is vital atm. The days of Joeball must be exorcised and we must move forward.
Depending on the opposition I think we will see a couple of changes in the 23 each game. This would be a smart play by Farrell. I hope that he doesn't fall for the over reliance on Murray/Sexton. If so we could be decked. Anyway, very excited for the weekend!

I agree that it was time to move on from Joe (as did Joe), but exorcising Joeball!? Really!? For starters we didnt just have a singular game plan under Joe. It varied over time with some pillars that remained consistent like accuracy at ruck time etc. The accuracy most definitely should not be exorcised.

While we relied heavily on prescripted patterns, that worked really well for us. Our issues last year weren't game plan related. They were mental. And they existed within the playing and the coaching group. We lost our accuracy, our confidence and we lost the battle up front as a result.

Now obviously Joe made errors and was part of the problem last year. This isnt a post refusing to allow critique of the Messiah. And we'd probably gone as far as we can under him (which was pretty far to be fair). Now we need something else. We need to develop leadership within the group that prevents the breakdown between coaches and players last season. Joes control over everything would only hamper that. We have a dangerous back 3 now that we need to get into the game more and have ball players in the pack more than ever before. We need to build on that too. But language like excorise is a bit much. We've shown ourselves as much as anyone else that we're capable of being the best in the world. That's what Joe's legacy will be. Now we have to develop our squad to build on that belief.

Granny15

Absolutely delighted for Doris if its the case that he will be selected.

Also looking forward to the interview on his first cap on TV Saturday. Guessing Virgin will.

If we have 1 or 2 more new faces I will be happy and judging by journalists predictions we will have Kelleher on bench with possibly Deegan covering backrow.

That's not too much not too little change for me. New era - here we come!

moritz1234

Do we still have that extra lineout threat ?
In PoM 7 games for Munster this season
14 Lineout wins
8 Lineout steals

Clegg

moritz1234 wrote: »

Do we still have that extra lineout threat ?
In PoM 7 games for Munster this season
14 Lineout wins
8 Lineout steals

James Ryan has stolen the most lineouts of any Irish forward this season. Of course, taking POM out weakens that aspect of our game but it isn't like we'll have nobody able to win ball off opposition lineouts.

Burkie1203

moritz1234 wrote: »

Do we still have that extra lineout threat ?
In PoM 7 games for Munster this season
14 Lineout wins
8 Lineout steals

Munster are out of Europe. Lineout steals are great. Deegan and Doris offer far more around the park

ionadnapokot

I wonder does Andy have his dinner in the middle of the day?

aloooof

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Munster are out of Europe. Lineout steals are great. Deegan and Doris offer far more around the park

Don't see how that advances the case for excluding anyone. In the same way, if they were still in Europe it wouldn't necessarily advance the case for including either.

Burkie1203

aloooof wrote: »

Don't see how that advances the case for excluding anyone. In the same way, if they were still in Europe it wouldn't necessarily advance the case for including either.

One random stat is thrown out as a reason for his inclusion.

Munster are out of Europe because too many big game players arent in good form and stealing a few lineouts doesn't alter that in POMs case

lawrencesummers

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Clegg wrote: »

James Ryan has stolen the most lineouts of any Irish forward this season. Of course, taking POM out weakens that aspect of our game but it isn't like we'll have nobody able to win ball off opposition lineouts.

Murray kinsella says otherwise.


https://www.the42.ie/ireland-six-nations-back-row-4976724-Jan2020/

lawrencesummers

Burkie1203 wrote: »

One random stat is thrown out as a reason for his inclusion.

Munster are out of Europe because too many big game players arent in good form and stealing a few lineouts doesn't alter that in POMs case

Munster are out of Europe because they were not good enough to get out of an extremely difficult pool, a pool that any other big side would have struggled to get out of.

Interested Observer

Is anyone really saying we should pick POM because he might steal one lineout a game?

moritz1234

Interested Observer wrote: »

Is anyone really saying we should pick POM because he might steal one lineout a game?

What a stupid comment - no one said that.
PoM has certain attributes
Excellent at turnovers
Excllent at lineout steals
A great captain and leader

He was Ireland's best player in the two WC games against Scotland and the ABs

yerrahbah

Interested Observer wrote: »

Is anyone really saying we should pick POM because he might steal one lineout a game?

I haven't seen anyone say that

Interested Observer

moritz1234 wrote: »

What a stupid comment - no one said that.
PoM has certain attributes
Excellent at turnovers
Excllent at lineout steals
A great captain and leader

He was Ireland's best player in the two WC games against Scotland and the ABs

Doesn't tackle. Doesn't carry. Spends more time on the wing than the wingers. Appears he's been dropped from the squad and it's about time.

Also - were you aware he played for about 20 mins against Scotland? Some achievement being our best player.

daddy pig

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Munster are out of Europe because they were not good enough to get out of an extremely difficult pool, a pool that any other big side would have struggled to get out of.

Racing and a second string Saracens didn't struggle to get out of it.
Racing qualified with a game in hand and Saracens didn't even try until the 4th game.

Clegg

lawrencesummers wrote: »

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Murray kinsella says otherwise.


https://www.the42.ie/ireland-six-nations-back-row-4976724-Jan2020/

Fair enough. He also said in the 42 podcast last week that Ryan led teh stats for steals. So obviously he got that writing and has corrected himself.

Shefwedfan

moritz1234 wrote: »

What a stupid comment - no one said that.
PoM has certain attributes
Excellent at turnovers
Excllent at lineout steals
A great captain and leader

He was Ireland's best player in the two WC games against Scotland and the ABs

Unfortunately for POM all he really brings is a line out threat. VDF is a better player at turn overs.



Eddie Jones said it prior to last WC that big ball carriers is the way the game is going and POM is not that.



Also he was hardly on the pitch v Scotland. He was awful against Japan and that was when we needed a leader, instead he was giving penalties away and had to be dragged off before he got a yellow card.

Shefwedfan

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Munster are out of Europe because they were not good enough to get out of an extremely difficult pool, a pool that any other big side would have struggled to get out of.

That group was not difficult. Osprey was an automatic 10 points. Racing will be out at the Qtr's. Sarries played the B team for majority of tournament and still qualified. That included the Sarries B team playing nearly an entire match with 14 players away from home and winning.

sydthebeat

lawrencesummers wrote: »

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Murray kinsella says otherwise.


https://www.the42.ie/ireland-six-nations-back-row-4976724-Jan2020/

this is what you should be actually taking from that article:

A potential back row composed of Stander at blindside, Doris at number eight, and van der Flier at openside would offer a balance of ball-carrying ballast, powerful tackling, work-rate, lineout options, breakdown threats, and some handling skill.

thebaz

moritz1234 wrote: »

What a stupid comment - no one said that.
PoM has certain attributes
Excellent at turnovers
Excllent at lineout steals
A great captain and leader

He was Ireland's best player in the two WC games against Scotland and the ABs

Surely you meant - had -

POM was a great player , but his form has dipped for over a year, my memory of the WC was he (and others) were blown away by the AB's - get some form , but unless he returns to the POM of 2018 he should be nowhere near the Irish team.

moritz1234

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Unfortunately for POM all he really brings is a line out threat. VDF is a better player at turn overs.



Eddie Jones said it prior to last WC that big ball carriers is the way the game is going and POM is not that.



Also he was hardly on the pitch v Scotland. He was awful against Japan and that was when we needed a leader, instead he was giving penalties away and had to be dragged off before he got a yellow card.

God the whole team were awful against Japan - you can't hang that on PoM.
Probably the only one who turned up and put in a shift against the ABs

moritz1234

thebaz wrote: »

Surely you meant - had -

POM was a great player , but his form has dipped for over a year, my memory of the WC was he (and others) were blown away by the AB's - get some form , but unless he returns to the POM of 2018 he should be nowhere near the Irish team.

Your memory is wrong - he turned up against the ABs the rest of the pack didn't. Watch it again.