Councillors' junket to the Netherlands

s7ryf3925pivug

Shortly after voting to increase property tax and declaring a climate emergency, five councillors have flown to Utrecht "to observe their cycling infrastructure". This is funded by public money. FF, FG, Labour, Greens and SD all are represented on the holiday I mean research trip.

s7ryf3925pivug

Raising taxes to pay for them to go carousing around on holiday.

After declaring a climate emergency they shouldn't be flying anywhere.

ted1

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

Shortly after voting to increase property tax and declaring a climate emergency, five councillors have flown to Utrecht "to observe their cycling infrastructure". This is funded by public money. FF, FG, Labour, Greens and SD all are represented on the holiday I mean research trip.

Considering we have piss poor cycling infrastructure it’s a good thing if they see what proper infrastructure is.

A trip to Utrecht is hardly considered a junket this days.

Info on the low cost trip here :
https://irishcycle.com/2019/09/01/join-the-cycling-study-tour-to-the-netherlands-in-october/

my3cents

While I think on one had they should take a look for themselves I think its a waste of money because we aren't Dutch and having their infrastructure isn't going to make much difference to the way we do things.

As the old joke goes if Ireland was full of the Dutch and Holland was full of the Irish then Ireland would be swimming in milk and Hollland would be swimming.

Odelay

It’s common in business to visit new ideas and see how it works in practice. Not sure what the issue here is. Should they spend our money without seeing how it could work? What should they have done instead?

un5byh7sqpd2x0

Faux outrage at councillors spending public money?

s7ryf3925pivug

No need to go there to study it. It's a waste of money. They just voted to increase property taxes so it is a bit of a kick In the teeth.

Air travel is a massive polluter. They just declared a climate emergency. They should not be flying anywhere.

It's not faux outrage. I'm not outraged. However I think this is objectionable and hypocritical.

Info on the low cost trip here :

How much is the "low cost trip"? You're clearly involved in one way or another since the price doesn't appear to be published.

ted1

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

No need to go there to study it. It's a waste of money. They just voted to increase property taxes so it is a bit of a kick In the teeth.

Air travel is a massive polluter. They just declared a climate emergency. They should not be flying anywhere.

It's not faux outrage. I'm not outraged. However I think this is objectionable and hypocritical.

How much is the "low cost trip". You're clearly involved in one way or another since the price doesn't appear to be published.

No I’m not involved. But I am aware of the good work and well informed articles written by the editor of IrishCycle.com
I’m pretty sure the price wasn’t published because it wasn’t finalised, in was probably get a low cost flight , cheap hotel and public transport. So not much.

To develop our infrastructure they need to go to a city to see how it works. Utrecht was a car dominant city but through want and good design they transformed it. We need to do the same.

The fact you think trips like this are pointless indicates that you have never delivered projects.

Iv lived in NL, the local politicians here could learn huge amounts from them about designing and implementing cycle routes.

Good to see some of them take an interest. It's a massive opportunity for this country.

s7ryf3925pivug

ted1 wrote: »

No I’m not involved. But I am aware of the good work and well informed articles written by the editor of IrishCycle.com
I’m pretty sure the price wasn’t published because it wasn’t finalised, in was probably get a low cost flight , cheap hotel and public transport. So not much.

To develop our infrastructure they need to go to a city to see how it works. Utrecht was a car dominant city but through want and good design they transformed it. We need to do the same.

The fact you think trips like this are pointless indicates that you have never delivered projects.

I have delivered projects and I have been made to travel as part of that. Seeing the working and layout of a factory in person is necessary to improve how that factory operates. Being able to talk to people in various roles as required also very helpful. None of this was possible online.

But I've also gone on wanky trips as part of research that accomplished nothing that couldn't be done online.

I'm going to say that studying public infrastructure like this is firmly in the latter category - it's something that can easily be done online.

ted1

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

I have delivered projects and I have been made to travel as part of that. Seeing the working and layout of a factory in person is necessary to improve how that factory operates. Being able to talk to people in various roles as required also very helpful. None of this was possible online.

But I've also gone on wanky trips as part of research that accomplished nothing that couldn't be done online.

I'm going to say that studying public infrastructure like this is firmly in the latter category - it's something that can easily be done online.

I’d strongly disagree, online studying is no where near a substitute for seen stuff first hand.

On paper we have good cycle lanes. In reality we don’t. ....

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

I’m pretty sure the price wasn’t published because it wasn’t finalised, in was probably get a low cost flight , cheap hotel and public transport. So not much.

My fukc they're all on some sort of budget trip acting in the interests of the Limerick public!

Sorry OP but honestly there was a trickle of pi$s ran down the inside of my pants I laughed so hard at this! Seriously, you're either trolling or utterly naïve if you believe your own spiel that these lads are all bunking together in some hostel before getting the 6.30 Ryanair flight home. Maybe you think they're all hitchhiking out to the airport to save us a few bob as well?


Don't get me wrong here, I'm not one of these people who are always straight away against public money being spent by public representatives to research public projects, that's the whole idea after all.

But if you think for a feckin' heartbeat that those chancers aren't getting the Limerick public to pick up the tab for steaks and €20 cocktails and business class flights and separate suites at the Hilton while probably inviting a damn sight more people that actually need to be there, you gotta lot to learn.

They're not publishing the price because "it wasn't finalised"? Come on! :rolleyes:

s7ryf3925pivug

Five economy passengers making a round trip from Shannon to Utrecht have a footprint of 3050 kg of CO2. The footprint for five passengers in business class (and I think you'd find that was their choice) is over 4500kg.

To give that context, driving a compact car 17800km (the average yearly mileage in Ireland) has a footprint of under 2500kg.

So even if they flew economy this trip involves more emissions than an average person's full year of driving.

Last month they declared a climate emergency. I mean come on...

It would be very generous to call this ignorant. It is common knowledge that flights are huge polluters.

And the fact is that they're not going to come back and apply anything they couldn't have found out online. I'd be surprised if there is any change in how they do things at all tbh.

Cookiemunster

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

Five economy passengers making a round trip from Shannon to Utrecht have a footprint of 3050 kg of CO2. The footprint for five passengers in business class (and I think you'd find that was their choice) is over 4500kg.

To give that context, driving a compact car 17800km (the average yearly mileage in Ireland) has a footprint of under 2500kg.

So even if they flew economy this trip involves more emissions than an average person's full year of driving.

Last month they declared a climate emergency. I mean come on...

It would be very generous to call this ignorant. It is common knowledge that flights are huge polluters.

And the fact is that they're not going to come back and apply anything they couldn't have found out online. I'd be surprised if there is any change in how they do things at all tbh.

I have a relative who used to be a councilor who went on some of these trips. They never flew business class (pretty sure it's not even possible between Ireland and the Netherlands). It was usually Ryanair. They went to America once and that was economy class too. Do some research rather that throwing your opinions out a fact.

And as for the climate emergency stuff, 2% of world emissions are from the aviation industry. There are is plenty of lower hanging fruit closer to home that can be tackled before the aviation industry.

realdanbreen

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

Raising taxes to pay for them to go carousing around on holiday.

After declaring a climate emergency they shouldn't be flying anywhere.

You reckon they should have what, hitched!

ted1

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

Five economy passengers making a round trip from Shannon to Utrecht have a footprint of 3050 kg of CO2. The footprint for five passengers in business class (and I think you'd find that was their choice) is over 4500kg.

To give that context, driving a compact car 17800km (the average yearly mileage in Ireland) has a footprint of under 2500kg.

So even if they flew economy this trip involves more emissions than an average person's full year of driving.

Last month they declared a climate emergency. I mean come on...

It would be very generous to call this ignorant. It is common knowledge that flights are huge polluters.

And the fact is that they're not going to come back and apply anything they couldn't have found out online. I'd be surprised if there is any change in how they do things at all tbh.

Most cars are driving as single occupancy. If this helps them to put in proper infrastructure they are looking at taking thousands of cars off the road for years. So why are you only looking at 1 car?

No business class flights there. The Irish cycle would be the first to pull them up on a Juncket as it’d probably come out if a budget allocated to cycling and detract from other budgets.

s7ryf3925pivug

co2 figures are from this: https://www.co2nsensus.com/carbon-offset-calculator

Air travel emissions in Ireland is much greater than what you stated. You might be talking about global stats with your comparison. Also emissions by planes are significantly more damaging than the same amount by cars because they are released high up in our atmosphere.

Cookiemunster

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

co2 figures are from this: https://www.co2nsensus.com/carbon-offset-calculator

Air travel emissions in Ireland is much greater than what you stated. You might be talking about global stats with your comparison. Also emissions by planes are significantly more damaging than the same amount by cars because they are released high up in our atmosphere.

That site is a pretty blunt instrument. Your CO2 usage on a plane will depend on the type of plane, it's age and fuel efficiency, the load factor of said plane, the routing and weather conditions.

But using that site I get 238kg CO2 per person flying DUB to AMS return (Utrecht doesn't have an airport and you can't fly to the Netherlands from SNN) or 1190kg for a party of 5. Which is 1860kg less than your claim. Please do stick to the facts rather than massaging figures to suit your argument.

s7ryf3925pivug

https://airports-list.com/airport/utc

It's 1525kg.I put it in twice. Not massaging claims, human error at 4am or whatever it was. Still very high emissions. Those emissions have greater impact than the same at ground level. Of course it's not precisely accurate neither is the car figure. All unnecessary and pointless.

ted1

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

https://airports-list.com/airport/utc

It's 1525kg.I put it in twice. Not massaging claims, human error at 4am or whatever it was. Still very high emissions. Those emissions have greater impact than the same at ground level. Of course it's not precisely accurate neither is the car figure. All unnecessary and pointless.

It’s totally irrelevant And an unnecessary distraction as the end result could be that millions of emissions are prevented as a result of the trip.

I fly regular with work and have quite a large carbon footprint as a result , but I work in energy consultancy and as a results my footprint is is offset by the large amounts of carbon I save countries.
I help countries bring on Renewables and run their grid more efficiently.

keane2097

Delighted to hear this, hopefully they actually implement some of the stuff they see over there when they get home.

realdanbreen

You can make all the trips/junkets you want but the bottom line is that approx. 100 Corporations/multinational are responsible for 70% of the worlds pollution. Unless measures are taken to address that you're pissing against the wind.

Cookiemunster

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

https://airports-list.com/airport/utc

It's 1525kg.I put it in twice. Not massaging claims, human error at 4am or whatever it was. Still very high emissions. Those emissions have greater impact than the same at ground level. Of course it's not precisely accurate neither is the car figure. All unnecessary and pointless.

Sosterberg Air Base is a former Dutch Air Force base. It's been closed for 15 years. If you want to go to Utrecht you have to fly to AMS. They would have flown DUB - AMS, so my figures are correct. Please stop.

Mango Joe

Aw.... Bless them - They're flying off to Utrecht to avoid having to breathe in the toxic fumes from the tyre-burning operation they somehow accidentally approved in Mungret right beside a park, playground, respite centre for children with disabilities, 2 primary schools, a secondary school and thousands of houses.

These totally idiotic and hugely ignorant people are an absolute embarrassment to us all.

Cookiemunster

Mango Joe wrote: »

Aw.... Bless them - They're flying off to Utrecht to avoid having to breathe in the toxic fumes from the tyre-burning operation they somehow accidentally approved in Mungret right beside a park, playground, respite centre for children with disabilities, 2 primary schools, a secondary school and thousands of houses.

These totally idiotic and hugely ignorant people are an absolute embarrassment to us all.

There's a different thread for this, but that was approved by the planning dept, not the councilors. Final planning decisions are not in their remit. And if it doesn't fall outside the planning laws, they can't refuse planning without opening themselves up to litigation.

YFlyer

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

Five economy passengers making a round trip from Shannon to Utrecht have a footprint of 3050 kg of CO2. The footprint for five passengers in business class (and I think you'd find that was their choice) is over 4500kg.

To give that context, driving a compact car 17800km (the average yearly mileage in Ireland) has a footprint of under 2500kg.

So even if they flew economy this trip involves more emissions than an average person's full year of driving.

Last month they declared a climate emergency. I mean come on...

It would be very generous to call this ignorant. It is common knowledge that flights are huge polluters.

And the fact is that they're not going to come back and apply anything they couldn't have found out online. I'd be surprised if there is any change in how they do things at all tbh.

Does an extra 5 passengers on a jet add over 3 tonnes to the fuel consumption?

s7ryf3925pivug

YFlyer wrote: »

Does an extra 5 passengers on a jet add over 3 tonnes to the fuel consumption?

It was actually nine passengers. Seven councillors and two staff.

Obviously it's market driven and the number of flights is based on the demand.

ted1

Mango Joe wrote: »

Aw.... Bless them - They're flying off to Utrecht to avoid having to breathe in the toxic fumes from the tyre-burning operation they somehow accidentally approved in Mungret right beside a park, playground, respite centre for children with disabilities, 2 primary schools, a secondary school and thousands of houses.

These totally idiotic and hugely ignorant people are an absolute embarrassment to us all.

I assume that an Environmental impact assessment was carried out and necessary scrubbers are being utilised and that only vapour will be emitted. Check out the incinerator in Polbeg and how clean it’s chimney is, right beside the development of a new urban quarter and in a centre of the highest population density in Ireland

YFlyer

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

It was actually nine passengers. Seven councillors and two staff.

Obviously it's market driven and the number of flights is based on the demand.

Thanks.

Poxyshamrock

Which councillors? I know Elisa O’Donovan is there.

s7ryf3925pivug

The organizers of the event encouraged attendees to travel by public transport and ferry if possible. The Dublin delegation did just that. The Limerick delegation travelled to Dublin and then flew. Obviously they should have gone by ferry and public transport from Dublin.

I don't know who went apart from EOD and Olivia O'Sullivan. I understand that there were people from FF, Labour and the Greens as well as those two, and that no independents went.

Most of these parties are running on platforms of climate action, and it's the raison d'etre of the greens. Therefore the councillors should be subject to disciplinary measures by their parties.

Cookiemunster

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

The organizers of the event encouraged attendees to travel by public transport and ferry if possible. The Dublin delegation did just that. The Limerick delegation travelled to Dublin and then flew. Obviously they should have gone by ferry and public transport from Dublin.

I don't know who went apart from EOD and Olivia O'Sullivan. I understand that there were people from FF, Labour and the Greens as well as those two, and that no independents went.

Most of these parties are running on platforms of climate action, and it's the raison d'etre of the greens. Therefore the councillors should be subject to disciplinary measures by their parties.

Have you worked out how much carbon it would take to travel to Dublin, then take the ferry to the UK, then travel across the UK, then get another ferry, then travel to Utrecht? Sometimes flying makes sense.

s7ryf3925pivug

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Have you worked out how much carbon it would take to travel to Dublin, then take the ferry to the UK, then travel across the UK, then get another ferry, then travel to Utrecht? Sometimes flying makes sense.

more public transport usage leads to reduced car usage which reduces emissions.

Ferries are way greener than aircraft. Air travel is a huge polluter and should be avoided by anyone who has any pretence of being environmentally conscious.

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2007/aug/04/saturday.green1

Cookiemunster

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

more public transport usage leads to reduced car usage which reduces emissions.

Ferries are way greener than aircraft. Air travel is a huge polluter and should be avoided by anyone who has any pretence of being environmentally conscious.

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2007/aug/04/saturday.green1

Can you answer the question i asked please?

ted1

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

more public transport usage leads to reduced car usage which reduces emissions.

Ferries are way greener than aircraft. Air travel is a huge polluter and should be avoided by anyone who has any pretence of being environmentally conscious.

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2007/aug/04/saturday.green1

You were Initially worried about costs , now it’s carbon. Time is money , how long with it have taking them to travel the alternative way? What’s the per diem difference? 225 euro in The Netherlands, ferry times may have resulted in an extra day.

If going land bridge the uk rate is 140 pounds.

And you have continued to fail to understand that this trip could result in the savings of millions of tonnes of carbon.

As the saying goes you need to spend money to make money.

s7ryf3925pivug

No work it out yourself if you want to get an idea of specific values. You can do it as easily as I can.

I said from the start the issue was with both money and carbon emissions.

I don't expect any positive change to result from the trip no. Not ignoring the assertion, I'm just skeptical. Maybe they can study the great public transport infrastructure they have. Ours is ****. The trains can't run at max speed because the tracks are too ****. The tram in Dublin is disjointed and that was in development for ages. Do you think a few days in The Netherlands would have changed that? Of course not because the issues are systemic, not because we don't have access to the best practice, but because we do stupid **** that's popular and met with little resistance. The same will go for cycling infrastructure.

The same people going who just decided against pedestrianising O'Connell St. Instead they are replacing part of the pavement with a cycle lane. The result will be an unusable cycle lane that people walk in. Pointless project. Was this decision informed by best practice? No it was informed by pandering to businesses in the city centre who want people to be able to stop their cars outside their shops.

Cookiemunster

Ah, so you refuse to back up a statement you made with some facts. Fair enough I won't bother trying to engage you in reasonable discussion in the future.

s7ryf3925pivug

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Ah, so you refuse to back up a statement you made with some facts. Fair enough I won't bother trying to engage you in reasonable discussion in the future.

I have backed it up with facts. I linked you a thing explaining why ferries are much greener than air travel. Public transport is obviously preferable to flying. You want to set me a homework assignment to pick holes in, not have reasonable discussion.

ted1

Damari Repulsive Literature wrote: »

The same people going who just decided against pedestrianising O'Connell St. Instead they are replacing part of the pavement with a cycle lane. The result will be an unusable cycle lane that people walk in. Pointless project. Was this decision informed by best practice? No it was informed by pandering to businesses in the city centre who want people to be able to stop their cars outside their shops.

From this trip they may see it’s a bad idea and see an alternative way of thinking

s7ryf3925pivug

ted1 wrote: »

From this trip they may see it’s a bad idea and see an alternative way of thinking

I suppose if you're hoping they'll have such a profound shift in their way of thinking after a few days away then somewhere where psychotropic drugs are readily [and relatively safely] available is your best bet.

Or if they have a bad time on them they might gain human insight relevant to mental health week. Win win.

Reputable Rog

It’s only a junket if you’re not on it as an esteemed Cork politician once told me.

YFlyer

Wonder will there be any engineers or scientists going?