Modern Vehicle Safety Systems

bdogg

Mod Note: I've pulled this out of the Model 3 thread as it sparked a general discussion re safety systems -- liamog


First mod I’m doing

https://youtu.be/kQyIr9-36XM

EVGuy

s8n wrote: »

I would also like a link for floor mats please

Apparently Tesla's own floor mats have been improved, so might be worth a look too.

bdogg wrote: »

First mod I’m doing

https://youtu.be/kQyIr9-36XM

I'd be a little nervous about that (but would love to do it) for insurance reasons.

Suppose someone stepped right out in front of you and got hit and the isurance find the noise was disabled, what would happen?

I utterly detest the sound, but wouldn't want invalidated insurance either.

I hope they allow custom sounds or at least a choice so you don't sound like an amateur at a wine glass playing session when you reverse into the drive.

cnocbui

bdogg wrote: »

First mod I’m doing

https://youtu.be/kQyIr9-36XM

What do you plan to tell the judge?

bdogg

cnocbui wrote: »

What do you plan to tell the judge?

“He had earphones in”

bdogg

cnocbui wrote: »

What do you plan to tell the judge?

“He had earphones in”

cnocbui

This keeps getting better: Disabling a legally mandated safety feature and now perjury.

bdogg

cnocbui wrote: »

This keeps getting better: Disabling a legally mandated safety feature and now perjury.

haha! you for real?

The feature is from 0-19 miles an hour. What about all those killer Leafs?? Do we have to recall and retrofit all those silent vehicles?

In the land of whiplash for the uninsured and unspecified 'personal injury' your calling perjury on that?

Also, in a car that can do 0-60 in 3.4 seconds, do you really think the noise will add any safety? Should that acceleration be legally mandated to 6+ seconds?

My real point here is one of THE main advantages of EV's is the silence. We are introducing noise pollution for - I'd argue - zero gain. Why not teach people how to drive properly and use the road properly as pedestrians? I drove a model 3 that was silent for 3 weeks and didn't kill a single person. You just learn to be more observant on reversing or in parking lots at low speeds.

catharsis

cnocbui wrote: »

This keeps getting better: Disabling a legally mandated safety feature and now perjury.

there is a button to turn on and off the feature on LEAFs and I understand also Ioniq's/Kona's/Niros?

Is anyone who presses this button also now a criminal?

I understood that the EU Regulation says that manufacturers are obliged to fit this. Can you point to a statute which applies to the driver?

bdogg

catharsis wrote: »

I understood that the EU Regulation says that manufacturers are obliged to fit this. Can you point to a statute which applies to the driver?

It’s like mandating that all automobiles smelled like **** after they took over from horses so a blind person could smell them nearby.

Maybe installing emissions cheating software is the way to go tho.

cnocbui

catharsis wrote: »

there is a button to turn on and off the feature on LEAFs and I understand also Ioniq's/Kona's/Niros?

Is anyone who presses this button also now a criminal?

I understood that the EU Regulation says that manufacturers are obliged to fit this. Can you point to a statute which applies to the driver?

The EU legislation allows a driver to disable the noise at times when they believe it is safe to do so. I suspect that is to allow for when cars are on private property and such. I doubt it means a driver can turn it off permanently or disable the system entirely. EU legislation has to be adopted by member states, so It will become part of Irish legislation, if it isn't already. I am not inclined to go looking for it, but I have noted that the Irish minister for transport has already mentioned it.

Roads minister Michael Ellis said: “The Government wants the benefits of green transport to be felt by everyone, and understands the concerns of the visually impaired about the possible hazards posed by quiet electric vehicles.

“This new requirement will give pedestrians added confidence when crossing the road.”

Perhaps a journalist should ask him how the visually impaired can feel confident when EV drivers can switch it off at will or disable it entirely.

US research from 2009 - that surely needs to be followed up on - found that electric vehicles have a 53% higher incidence of collisions with cyclists and a 37% higher involving pedestrians, than ICE powered vehicles.

bdogg

cnocbui wrote: »

US research from 2009 - that surely needs to be followed up on - found that electric vehicles have a 53% higher incidence of collisions with cyclists and a 37% higher involving pedestrians, than ICE powered vehicles.

A 10 year old study funded by whom? And what weight has this unnamed study? Any current stats from 2018-2019 when EV fleet has multiplied exponentially? If so important why not followed up on? Surely the escalating death rate due to silent EV’s should be climbing?

Should we fit noise makers to bicycles too to protect the blind?

cnocbui

bdogg wrote: »

A 10 year old study funded by whom? And what weight has this unnamed study? Any current stats from 2018-2019 when EV fleet has multiplied exponentially? If so important why not followed up on? Surely the escalating death rate due to silent EV’s should be climbing?

Should we fit noise makers to bicycles too to protect the blind?

The US Department of Transport - National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811204

Teslablue

cnocbui wrote: »

The US Department of Transport - National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811204

Like everything involving stats you need to look at the whole picture and in the time of the report any accident involving an ev would be skewed due to the small number of ev’s. So it’s simple some come on here to do a Donald Trump i.e. they only use the data that they want to believe and never look at the real big picture, you have to feel sorry for their delusions.

jusmeig

The study is hybrids. Hybirds have engines that burn pop and explode. Stealth EVs are more dangerous?

eddhorse

I think people have been too reliant on the noise of ICE cars in car parks etc.
Nobody looks around to check if it is safe anymore, whatever type of car it is.

bdogg

eddhorse wrote: »

I think people have been too reliant on the noise of ICE cars in car parks etc.
Nobody looks around to check if it is safe anymore, whatever type of car it is.

There should be three toggle options for the PWS on Telsa software -

1. On constantly

2. On only when pedestrian detected at speed under 19mph (v9 and v10 can differentiate and visualise pedestrians)

3. Off completely

ted1

bdogg wrote: »

There should be three toggle options for the PWS on Telsa software -

1. On constantly

2. On only when pedestrian detected at speed under 19mph (v9 and v10 can differentiate and visualise pedestrians)

3. Off completely

Can it sense a 4 year old child standing between 2 parked cars? Who may walk out at any moment. ? Because option 2 seems like a non runner

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

Can it sense a 4 year old child standing between 2 parked cars? Who may walk out at any moment. ? Because option 2 seems like a non runner

Given it can read cars ahead of cars, I dont think that is going to be a problem

drunkmonkey

eddhorse wrote: »

I think people have been too reliant on the noise of ICE cars in car parks etc.
Nobody looks around to check if it is safe anymore, whatever type of car it is.

I'm trying to teach the kids the safe cross code, I think the RSA have dropped the ball completely on it as people seems to just cross paying heed to nothing, I've seen some not even look just walk straight across the road.
Everyone should follow it, stop, look, listen, cross.

ted1

ELM327 wrote: »

Given it can read cars ahead of cars, I dont think that is going to be a problem

I think you are putting to much faith in it.

eddhorse

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm trying to teach the kids the safe cross code, I think the RSA have dropped the ball completely on it as people seems to just cross paying heed to nothing, I've seen some not even look just walk straight across the road.
Everyone should follow it, stop, look, listen, cross.

Totally agree with this.

Currently its "if you hear nothing, walk out".
What are people doing for bicycles? They make little to no noise?

ted1

eddhorse wrote: »

Totally agree with this.

Currently its "if you hear nothing, walk out".
What are people doing for bicycles? They make little to no noise?

They carry far less momentum than a 1.6 ton car and have reverse , to attempt to compare the two is ridiculous.

batts_not_incl

what's ridiculous is that personal responsibility not to walk out in front of cars isn't enough to prevent people suing insurance companies.
People with functioning sense of sight just shouldn't be allowed to argue "i didn't hear it".

unkel

ted1 wrote: »

Can it sense a 4 year old child standing between 2 parked cars? Who may walk out at any moment. ? Because option 2 seems like a non runner

Not sure if it can, but most new cars now have AEB as standard. So if a child steps in front of your car, the car itself will apply an emergency stop. Depends of course on the situation (distance between car and child when the system detects the child, speed of the car, etc.) how effective this is.

It seems to work very well in my Ioniq. If I drive a bit too aggressively towards any object the car will vehemently beep for a fraction of a second and then it drops the anchors.

Lumen

batts_not_incl wrote: »

what's ridiculous is that personal responsibility not to walk out in front of cars isn't enough to prevent people suing insurance companies.
People with functioning sense of sight just shouldn't be allowed to argue "i didn't hear it".

Incredibly enough, road safety is not built on the principle that people should be punished for their mistakes with death.

It's political correctness gone mad.

batts_not_incl

Lumen wrote: »

Incredibly enough, road safety is not built on the principle that people should be punished for their mistakes with death.

It's political correctness gone mad.

ha!
bit of a stretch here. If you think this is about reducing deaths it's not- it's about reducing lawsuits.
If reducing deaths was the issue we'd make speed limiters and ADAS safety features mandatory on all new vehicles. We aren't doing that, instead we're saying that we need to make the safest cars in the world louder.
let's try to find some statistics on how many people are killed by being slowly reversed over, versus those in collisions/speed related incidents.

cnocbui

ELM327 wrote: »

Given it can read cars ahead of cars, I dont think that is going to be a problem

Your faith in technology, unfortunately matches Teslas, which is why people have died and will do so in greater numbers if no one pulls them up.

Imagine a small child at 00:30

bdogg

batts_not_incl wrote: »

what's ridiculous is that personal responsibility not to walk out in front of cars isn't enough to prevent people suing insurance companies.
People with functioning sense of sight just shouldn't be allowed to argue "i didn't hear it".

What Teslacam was made for!

bdogg

cnocbui wrote: »

Imagine a small child at 00:30

WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN??!?!

Smart summon is in BETA and restricted to parking lots and private property. That is not a valid comparison to driving on a public road.

You'd be better informed by looking at how the Model 3 performed during official NCAP crash AEB testing:

https://youtu.be/ERsxs2wbIw4?t=126

You're making a massive issue out of something that is a non-issue.

Sabre Man

cnocbui wrote: »

Your faith in technology, unfortunately matches Teslas, which is why people have died and will do so in greater numbers if no one pulls them up.

Imagine a small child at 00:30

Who has died as a result of Smart summon? We need more technology, not less. People are getting killed/injured every day due to poor driving.

ted1

bdogg wrote: »

WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN??!?!

Smart summon is in BETA and restricted to parking lots and private property. That is not a valid comparison to driving on a public road.

You'd be better informed by looking at how the Model 3 performed during official NCAP crash AEB testing:

https://youtu.be/ERsxs2wbIw4?t=126

You're making a massive issue out of something that is a non-issue.

It’s a comparison to a parking lot or housing estate, or village.

cnocbui

Sabre Man wrote: »

Who has died as a result of Smart summon? We need more technology, not less. People are getting killed/injured every day due to poor driving.

We do not need more technology that kills people, like MCAS on the Boeing 737 Max and Tesla's dangerous take on autonomy.

The world seems full of stupid geeks who believe automation and technolgy are replacements for their own responsibility or that of other humans. Like the >bleep< in Miami who was using One of his Teslas autopilot modes to allow him to play with his phone - at night - which thenran a stop sign at a T junction at full speed and went on to obliterate an SUV parked 13m off the road, killing a young woman standing behind it and putting her BF in a wheel chair for months and causing brain damage. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/florida-keys/article230945733.html

There is no autonomous driving system that is even as good as the average of human driver performance and certainly isn't a light year near the performance of good drivers. Automated driving isn't anywhere near as good as humans, and certainly not Tesla's.

Conclusion: Autopiloted Teslas have twice the fatal-crash rate of human-piloted Teslas.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107109_teslas-own-numbers-show-autopilot-has-higher-crash-rate-than-human-drivers

It's probably potentially far worse than that as a huge unknown is how many driver interventions prevented fatal accidents. My guess, from reading comments by Tesla owners who have had to intervene and watching videos, is a lot.

level V FSD is decades away, if ever, and it's not something you can argue can reduce the road toll because it doesn't doesn't exist.

Advanced summon hasn't killed anyone yet, thankfully, but it's hardly had a chance yet.

Old diesel

cnocbui wrote: »

Sabre Man wrote: »

Who has died as a result of Smart summon? We need more technology, not less. People are getting killed/injured every day due to poor driving.

We do not need more technology that kills people, like MCAS on the Boeing 737 Max and Tesla's dangerous take on autonomy.

The world seems full of stupid geeks who believe automation and technolgy are replacements for their own responsibility or that of other humans. Like the >bleep< in Miami who was using One of his Teslas autopilot modes to allow him to play with his phone - at night - which thenran a stop sign at a T junction at full speed and went on to obliterate an SUV parked 13m off the road, killing a young woman standing behind it and putting her BF in a wheel chair for months and causing brain damage. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/florida-keys/article230945733.html

There is no autonomous driving system that is even as good as the average of human driver performance and certainly isn't a light year near the performance of good drivers. Automated driving isn't anywhere near as good as humans, and certainly not Tesla's.

Conclusion: Autopiloted Teslas have twice the fatal-crash rate of human-piloted Teslas.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107109_teslas-own-numbers-show-autopilot-has-higher-crash-rate-than-human-drivers

It's probably potentially far worse than that as a huge unknown is how many driver interventions prevented fatal accidents. My guess, from reading comments by Tesla owners who have had to intervene and watching videos, is a lot.

level V FSD is decades away, if ever, and it's not something you can argue can reduce the road toll because it doesn't doesn't exist.

Advanced summon hasn't killed anyone yet, thankfully, but it's hardly had a chance yet.

Where are the stats showing that Tesla's with all their tech has more incidents then non Tesla's then?????.

bdogg

ted1 wrote: »

It’s a comparison to a parking lot or housing estate, or village.

I'm assuming you didn't spring for FSD on your Model 3 order then Ted?

ted1

bdogg wrote: »

I'm assuming you didn't spring for FSD on your Model 3 order then Ted?

No, as a 5 seater is useless to me.

dingledosser

cnocbui wrote: »

Like the >bleep< in Miami who was using One of his Teslas autopilot modes to allow him to play with his phone - at night - which thenran a stop sign at a T junction at full speed

I've read the article, and a few more articles about the same incident, and nowhere does it say he had autopilot engaged. Just that they were investigating it. Unless there's been an update I've missed?

cnocbui

dingledosser wrote: »

I've read the article, and a few more articles about the same incident, and nowhere does it say he had autopilot engaged. Just that they were investigating it. Unless there's been an update I've missed?

Really? You didn't even follow the link I provided, which contains:

McGee told Torres the car was on “cruise control” when he dropped the phone. He was on his way to Ocean Reef to pick someone up and was speaking with an airline because he was planning to fly out of town for a funeral the next day.

Personally I don't believe he dropped the phone at all. I can't believe he didn't get a ticket for dangerous driving, hans't been charged with any driving related offence, wasn't tested for alcohol or drugs and seemingly is going to have killed someone without any negative consequences for himself, whatsoever.

Sabre Man

Cruise control is not the same as Autopilot.

cnocbui

Sabre Man wrote: »

Cruise control is not the same as Autopilot.

cnocbui wrote: »

...One of his Teslas autopilot modes ...

You can try splitting hairs all day 'till your cows come home but the bottom line is that he replaced his personal responsibility with faith in automation.

dingledosser

cnocbui wrote: »

You can try splitting hairs all day 'till your cows come home but the bottom line is that he replaced his personal responsibility with faith in automation.

You’re rambling now. Comparing cruise control with autopilot is like comparing apples and handbags.

adunis

I have a mod on both of my electric cars,
One is missing a particular fuse,the other has suffered from premature connector failure on an electrical component
I enjoy my silence.

Rusky rusky

unkel wrote: »

Not sure if it can, but most new cars now have AEB as standard. So if a child steps in front of your car, the car itself will apply an emergency stop. Depends of course on the situation (distance between car and child when the system detects the child, speed of the car, etc.) how effective this is.

It seems to work very well in my Ioniq. If I drive a bit too aggressively towards any object the car will vehemently beep for a fraction of a second and then it drops the anchors.

AEB in my golf saved my bacon a few times. Although it could be a bit overly sensitive, e.g. if im approaching a sharp turn with arrow signs along it at speeds above 60khp, I get a red warning with a loud beep but thankfully no emergency breaking. Scares the c@#p out of you though:)

liamog

Some studies have shown that partial automation could be more dangerous than the current safety assists.

Drivers have to do less actual driving during relatively easy driving conditions but then are expected to take over when the trained systems reach a limit.

Ireland currently requires two years for a driver to no longer be called a novice. As driving becomes "easier" you'd still be a novice for well into 5 years.

Rusky rusky

Rusky rusky wrote: »

AEB in my golf saved my bacon a few times. Although it could be a bit overly sensitive, e.g. if im approaching a sharp turn with arrow signs along it at speeds above 60khp, I get a red warning with a loud beep but thankfully no emergency breaking. Scares the c@#p out of you though:)

Never once did these "save my bacon". If what you say is true, you need examine your driving style.

cnocbui

dingledosser wrote: »

You’re rambling now. Comparing cruise control with autopilot is like comparing apples and handbags.

I am not rambling - the guy was not driving the car, and someone died as a result of him relying on automation - end of. We don't know what mode the car was in, he could easily have used 'cruise control' in the heat of the moment when it was actually using a different mode, but it doesn't matter what he called it or which one it was, the young woman is still dead.

krissovo

There are a few times I wished I had noisy car, Oliver Plunket street in Cork with all the pedestrians, a couple of estates where the kids play and center parks is a bit of a nightmare or any holiday village.

I just had a second horn fitted to both our cars which is much quieter, its a vintage “ARRR~UUUUGA” sound so gets some laughs as well.

krissovo

liamog wrote: »

Some studies have shown that partial automation could be more dangerous than the current safety assists.

Drivers have to do less actual driving during relatively easy driving conditions but then are expected to take over when the trained systems reach a limit.

Ireland currently requires two years for a driver to no longer be called a novice. As driving becomes "easier" you'd still be a novice for well into 5 years.

Some of the lane assist systems are outright dangerous swerving all over the road and failing on bends without any warning. Pro-pilot on the leaf I find excellent and in 9000kms with at least 75% using pro pilot I have no incidents at all. I have a similar expectation for the M3.

My i3 is another matter, the traffic jam assist and active braking is so flaky. It often rapidly accelerates towards bends and puts the brakes on sharply for little or no reason. Also it only works with 2 hands on the wheel which is not normal driving for most. The first thing I did was hack the car to remove the feature, I would of been happy with a one hand restriction.

Padre_Pio

Lumen wrote: »

Incredibly enough, road safety is not built on the principle that people should be punished for their mistakes with death.

It's political correctness gone mad.

No, road safety is built on the principle that we all have a part to play.

If you can't safely cross a street without looking up then it's completely your fault if something happens. I cycle to work and have had numerous lemmings walk out in front of me without looking.

Rules like this are a step backwards IMO.

Rusky rusky

Rusky rusky wrote: »

AEB in my golf saved my bacon a few times. Although it could be a bit overly sensitive, e.g. if im approaching a sharp turn with arrow signs along it at speeds above 60khp, I get a red warning with a loud beep but thankfully no emergency breaking. Scares the c@#p out of you though:)

Did you use to regularly crash before you got the Golf ;-)

dingledosser

cnocbui wrote: »

I am not rambling - the guy was not driving the car, and someone died as a result of him relying on automation - end of.

No... someone died because he was a reckless driver who took his eye off the road to pick up a phone. Nothing to do with automation - end of.

ted1

Padre_Pio wrote: »

If you can't safely cross a street without looking up then it's completely your fault if something happens.

Which may be considered a good attitude if you live in some kind of utopia. But we don’t , in the real world we have young kids who run out in the Riad chasing balls, people , leaves, just to cross the Road, playing hide and seek etc

If you can’t acknowledge that , then frankly you don’t belong behind the wheel of a car.