New inquests into stardust deaths

Foggy Jew

New inquests to be held for 1981 Stardust fire victims


- Sorry can’t post link. But this is going to be a massive undertaking. Where will it be held? Will there be a jury? What coroner will preside? Will the bereaved families get any further answers?

Genuine question,
What do they hope to achieve with the new inquiry?

gifted

BrownFinger wrote: »

Genuine question,
What do they hope to achieve with the new inquiry?

I'm open to correction here but I think no one was ever charged for any part they had in the killing of the people, the doors were all chained, way too many people allowed in, probably a lot more as well.....inquiry should hopefully identify the people who made these decisions.....

tdf7187

BrownFinger wrote: »

Genuine question,
What do they hope to achieve with the new inquiry?

The further enrichment of the corrupt and debased legal profession.

gifted

gifted wrote: »

I'm open to correction here but I think no one was ever charged for any part they had in the killing of the people, the doors were all chained, way too many people allowed in, probably a lot more as well.....inquiry should hopefully identify the people who made these decisions.....

They aren't war criminals or former high-up Nazis. It was 38 years ago.

AndyBoBandy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They aren't war criminals or former high-up Nazis. It was 38 years ago.

He is still responsible for the deaths though, or should it all just be forgotten about because it was 38 years ago?

Move along, nothing to see here...

AndyBoBandy

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

He is still responsible for the deaths though, or should it all just be forgotten about because it was 38 years ago?

Move along, nothing to see here...

After 38 years, I'd be of the opinion that the only charges worth pursuing are war crimes and murders.

What would you like to see happen at the end of this?

SEPT 23 1989

I presume all the main players are dead so now the state will allow this happen

mickdw

The families are entitled to this.
Too much covered up around this all the years.

whisky_galore

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I presume all the main players are dead so now the state will allow this happen

Same family owns the premises, now rebuilt, only the facade from the time is left but you'd have to be some dope to even think of doing this:

In 2006 the leaseholder and manager of the Stardust at the time of the fire, Eamon Butterly, planned to re-open licensed premises on the site of the Stardust on the 25th anniversary.

They got compensation because of an arson finding, £580,000, Can't have gone down too well with families and victims, can't blame them tbh.

weldoninhio

BrownFinger wrote: »

Genuine question,
What do they hope to achieve with the new inquiry?

I was thinking the same. It's like no matter what they are told they cannot accept it. They are so invested in protesting it that they can't give it up.

smelly sock

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

He is still responsible for the deaths though, or should it all just be forgotten about because it was 38 years ago?

Move along, nothing to see here...

It really depends on what the law and regs of the day were in relation to fire exits etc.

RIP to all who passed. Nobody meant for this to happen though.

smelly sock

whisky_galore wrote: »

Same family owns the premises, now rebuilt, only the facade from the time is left but you'd have to be some dope to even think of doing this:

In 2006 the leaseholder and manager of the Stardust at the time of the fire, Eamon Butterly, planned to re-open licensed premises on the site of the Stardust on the 25th anniversary.

They got compensation because of an arson finding, £580,000, Can't have gone down too well with families and victims, can't blame them tbh.

Thats scummy trying to reopen it.

weldoninhio

smelly sock wrote: »

It really depends on what the law and regs of the day were in relation to fire exits etc.

RIP to all who passed. Nobody meant for this to happen though.

I did a fire safety course a few weeks ago for work. The Fire laws in Ireland were changed immediately after the Stardust. Apparently, according to the tutor, it was, and still is, the fastest drafted legislation in the history of the state.

PhilOssophy

A bit like Hillsborough, if your child had died you might view time as not being a healer.
If this had happened in Club Anabel, just like if Hillsborough had happened at Twickenham, there would have been an investigation straight away.
But because it was in a working class part of Dublin, the political elite did not care.

Seth Brundle

Deleted User wrote: »

After 38 years, I'd be of the opinion that the only charges worth pursuing are war crimes and murders.

What would you like to see happen at the end of this?

The families would like answers as to why their loved ones died so needlessly!
The original inquiry is regarded as a whitewash. The only person who was punished in relation to the Stardust was an upset parent. Speculation was rife over political links to the owners.
There's loads of questions and to date successive governments have fobbed off the families.

weldoninhio wrote: »

I was thinking the same. It's like no matter what they are told they cannot accept it. They are so invested in protesting it that they can't give it up.

That's such a stupid comment in fairness. At what point should someone say "right feck it, I shouldn't bother getting the truth now"

smelly sock wrote: »

Thats scummy trying to reopen it.

WTF?

smelly sock

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The families would like answers as to why their loved ones died so needlessly!
The original inquiry is regarded as a whitewash. The only person who was punished in relation to the Stardust was an upset parent. Speculation was rife over political links to the owners.
There's loads of questions and to date successive governments have fobbed off the families.


That's such a stupid comment in fairness. At what point should someone say "right feck it, I shouldn't bother getting the truth now"

WTF?

Reopen the premises on the 25th anniversary.

Seth Brundle

smelly sock wrote: »

Reopen the premises on the 25th anniversary.

Yeah - misread your post and had it in my head that it was scummy to reopen the inquiry!
You're right - it was scummy!

anewme

Sometimes things stick with you. I was very young but remember well the news breaking on the Saturday morning that so many young people had died. Some of my friends older brothers and sisters would go to the Stardust, and thankfully none were there that night.

The photos in the Evening Herald showed the Padlocked Fire Escapes, the melting ceilings- they did not stand a chance to get out. I think of them every valentines day and their families, who never saw their children marry, have their own children, live their lives.

Those families have campaigned tirelessly to get justice for their loved ones, who died needlessly, because of greed and negligence. Some family members have gone to the grave never seeing anyone held accountable what happened that night.

To those asking what they hope to achieve - justice for their loved ones, acknowledgement and accountability. If it were my family, I would pursue it to the last as well.

I wish them well and trust that there is now enough integrity in the system so there is not another "whitewash" like the last one. I sincerely hope they get the peace they deserve.

D13exile

My 18 year old cousin died in that fire. I remember the shock amongst my family as word got round about the fire and that she didn't come home that night. Everyone was crowded around the phone trying to get news, phoning hospitals, getting nowhere and then having to physically visit every hospital to try to see if she was amongst the injured. Finally, my Uncle went to the morgue and found her there. She wasn't burned like many but she died from inhaling toxic gases. She was found beside one of the chained exits. Her boyfriend had lost her in the panic to get out and even though he did get out, he went back in to try to find her and ended up getting badly burned after escaping unscathed the first time. Another Uncle of mine was a fireman on duty that night and he later told stories of hearing victims screaming for rescue inside toilets with iron bars over the windows, only for the screams to stop as they died. For anyone living within a few miles of the Stardust, it left a permanent mark on us, particularly for those of us who lost someone. Anytime I pass the place, I get a chill when I remember my beautiful cousin who died on what should have been a fun night out. She was one of 48 who died and many others were left badly scarred, physically and emotionally.

Someone was to blame. Someone let far too many kids into an unsafe building. Someone started the fire. Someone locked the fire exits. Why shouldn't there be full disclosure of what happened? Why shouldn't the families finally get answers? My cousin's father has since passed away not knowing why his daughter died. Shouldn't the families get some peace?

And to the keyboard trolls who dismiss this new enquiry, just once can you think before you spew your uninformed bile out to the internet?

is_that_so

PhilOssophy wrote: »

A bit like Hillsborough, if your child had died you might view time as not being a healer.
If this had happened in Club Anabel, just like if Hillsborough had happened at Twickenham, there would have been an investigation straight away.
But because it was in a working class part of Dublin, the political elite did not care.

There was an investigation but it focused a lot more on the likely initial cause of arson and it attributed no blame.

beertons

My dad just said to me there, that he always thought it was odd that they had carpet on the walls.

is_that_so

D13exile wrote: »

My 18 year old cousin died in that fire. I remember the shock amongst my family as word got round about the fire and that she didn't come home that night. Everyone was crowded around the phone trying to get news, phoning hospitals, getting nowhere and then having to physically visit every hospital to try to see if she was amongst the injured. Finally, my Uncle went to the morgue and found her there. She wasn't burned like many but she died from inhaling toxic gases. She was found beside one of the chained exits. Her boyfriend had lost her in the panic to get out and even though he did get out, he went back in to try to find her and ended up getting badly burned after escaping unscathed the first time. Another Uncle of mine was a fireman on duty that night and he later told stories of hearing victims screaming for rescue inside toilets with iron bars over the windows, only for the screams to stop as they died. For anyone living within a few miles of the Stardust, it left a permanent mark on us, particularly for those of us who lost someone. Anytime I pass the place, I get a chill when I remember my beautiful cousin who died on what should have been a fun night out. She was one of 48 who died and many others were left badly scarred, physically and emotionally.

Someone was to blame. Someone let far too many kids into an unsafe building. Someone started the fire. Someone locked the fire exits. Why shouldn't there be full disclosure of what happened? Why shouldn't the families finally get answers? My cousin's father has since passed away not knowing why his daughter died. Shouldn't the families get some peace?

And to the keyboard trolls who dismiss this new enquiry, just once can you think before you spew your uninformed bile out to the internet?

There are questions and for long time the blame was on where the fire started and who might have done so. Some of that is already known. While it may be closure of a form for families it is not wrong nor trolling to wonder what the purpose of this inquest is. I'm curious as to what outcome it might reach.

D13exile

is_that_so wrote: »

There are questions and for long time the blame was on where the fire started and who might have done so. Some of that is already known. While it may be closure of a form for families it is not wrong nor trolling to wonder what the purpose of this inquest is. I'm curious as to what outcome it might reach.

What outcome? Let me see......
48 young people died.

Over 200 were injured.

No one was ever held accountable.

The Butterlys (owners of the Stardust) received over €730,000 in compensation from Dublin Corporation while the families of the dead and injured received nothing.

How about finding who was criminally responsible for locking fire exits?
How about finding out why the Butterlys, owners of the Stardust, get compensation from the state for their building that was the scene of the greatest loss of life from a fire in this country?

Smacks to me and a huge majority of people living near the Stardust that there was a cover up and the wealthy elite were protected and compensated by their powerful friends. What would you say? There's no proof of that? Probably why a proper enquiry was stalled for so long, so witnesses die, evidence is lost and people get away with what is nothing short of mass murder/manslaughter through gross negligence.

weldoninhio

beertons wrote: »

My dad just said to me there, that he always thought it was odd that they had carpet on the walls.

Soundproofing??

weldoninhio

D13exile wrote: »

What outcome? Let me see......
48 young people died.

Over 200 were injured.

No one was ever held accountable.

The Butterlys (owners of the Stardust) received over €730,000 in compensation from Dublin Corporation while the families of the dead and injured received nothing.

How about finding who was criminally responsible for locking fire exits?
How about finding out why the Butterlys, owners of the Stardust, get compensation from the state for their building that was the scene of the greatest loss of life from a fire in this country?

Smacks to me and a huge majority of people living near the Stardust that there was a cover up and the wealthy elite were protected and compensated by their powerful friends. What would you say? There's no proof of that? Probably why a proper enquiry was stalled for so long, so witnesses die, evidence is lost and people get away with what is nothing short of mass murder/manslaughter through gross negligence.

Was it a criminal offence to lock fire doors pre 1981 Fire Services Act? I can't find any other act that covers this pre-81, although I am only googling.

Edit: I realise it was a horrible thing to do, but was it illegal.

Villan11

Just a point of information, and not specific to this matter:
Inquests in Ireland are, by law, strictly precluded of considering or apportioning blame. The purpose of an inquest is to establish facts surrounding the circumstances of such events. An inquest cannot say that someone is to blame, or that someone is not to blame, it is a neutral hearing.

gifted

weldoninhio wrote: »

Was it a criminal offence to lock fire doors pre 1981 Fire Services Act? I can't find any other act that covers this pre-81, although I am only googling.

Hence the reason for an inquiry, to find out the answers .....

weldoninhio

gifted wrote: »

Hence the reason for an inquiry, to find out the answers .....

Why the need for an enquiry? Surely we have copies of the statute book pre-81. It either was against the law, or wasn't. A judge could easily just look it up.

mickdw

Villan11 wrote: »

Just a point of information, and not specific to this matter:
Inquests in Ireland are, by law, strictly precluded of considering or apportioning blame. The purpose of an inquest is to establish facts surrounding the circumstances of such events. An inquest cannot say that someone is to blame, or that someone is not to blame, it is a neutral hearing.

Yes but to get the true facts of the disaster officially recorded will be a huge step for the families.

gifted

weldoninhio wrote: »

Why the need for an enquiry? Surely we have copies of the statute book pre-81. It either was against the law, or wasn't. A judge could easily just look it up.

Inquiry will look at everything ...not just your specific request.

splinter65

[Deleted User] wrote: »

After 38 years, I'd be of the opinion that the only charges worth pursuing are war crimes and murders.

What would you like to see happen at the end of this?

I suppose Mrs Keegan and her family would like to see some justice for her daughters Mary and Martina who were burned to death on a night out and her husband who died of the stress of it. They’ve had no justice. The Butterlys never had to answer for the deaths for which they are directly to blame.

splinter65

splinter65 wrote: »

I suppose Mrs Keegan and her family would like to see some justice for her daughters Mary and Martina who were burned to death on a night out and her husband who died of the stress of it. They’ve had no justice. The Butterlys never had to answer for the deaths for which they are directly to blame.

I have every sympathy with the families. But you say the butterlys ( I’m assuming they were the owners) are to blame. If the inquiry said fire regulation laws were not in place so they didn’t break any laws, I don’t think you’d be happy. So what’s the point.

endainoz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLeSImIb2aw

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

I did a fire safety course a few weeks ago for work. The Fire laws in Ireland were changed immediately after the Stardust. Apparently, according to the tutor, it was, and still is, the fastest drafted legislation in the history of the state.

It wasn't just Stardust that initiated the that, but there was a fire in Bundoran less than 6 months previous which is not very well known. Stardust essentially drew all the attention and overshadowed it. The fact that 2 tragedies happened so close to one another meant the government at the time were in the firing line to do something about it.

Ironically, the drafting of that legislation is one of the few good things to have come out of the tragedies. It could be argued that more lives have been saved since because of how robust the codes and regulations became.

odyssey06

After this amount of elapsed time, not sure what new information this can bring to light?
Some of the people involved - I don't just mean the victims - are deceased. They can't redo the forensics.

Obviously, if this had been held, soon after the event, real answers might have been forthcoming.
I'm just doubtful about what it can discover now \ closure it can deliver.
It will put the families through the emotional wringer again.

ohnonotgmail

odyssey06 wrote: »

After this amount of elapsed time, not sure what new information this can bring to light?
Some of the people involved - I don't just mean the victims - are deceased. They can't redo the forensics.

Obviously, if this had been held, soon after the event, real answers might have been forthcoming.
I'm just doubtful about what it can discover now \ closure it can deliver.
It will put the families through the emotional wringer again.

It is the families that have been campaigning for the inquest. I'm sure they are aware of how emotional it will be for them.

Seth Brundle

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I have every sympathy with the families. But you say the butterlys ( I’m assuming they were the owners) are to blame. If the inquiry said fire regulation laws were not in place so they didn’t break any laws, I don’t think you’d be happy. So what’s the point.

The causes can be discovered or disclosed and assumptions about blame can be made without proving that anyone broke the law.
The fact is that the policy in there (and presumably elsewhere) of chaining fire exits to stop people getting in without paying is one of the causes of the tragedy.
The owners of the premises are presumably responsible for this regardless of whether they actually broke a law (or even if it wasn't against the law).

odyssey06

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It is the families that have been campaigning for the inquest. I'm sure they are aware of how emotional it will be for them.

Yes that did occur to me. I hope (and at the same time reasonably doubt) that the inquest will be able to bring sufficient light \ closure on the events for them to balance against that.

Skylinehead

BrownFinger wrote: »

Genuine question,
What do they hope to achieve with the new inquiry?

tdf7187 wrote: »

The further enrichment of the corrupt and debased legal profession.

Deleted User wrote: »

They aren't war criminals or former high-up Nazis. It was 38 years ago.

weldoninhio wrote: »

I was thinking the same. It's like no matter what they are told they cannot accept it. They are so invested in protesting it that they can't give it up.

Jesus, you people would complain about anything. Weldoninho especially.

Do you feel the same about the Hillsborough inquiry being reopened? Sure it was ages ago. Justice and victim-blaming be damned.

Do you feel the same about the church child abuse inquiry? Sure it was decades ago. Who cares about some kids getting justice?

Justice was not served for Stardust. There is no closure. They're entirely entitled to try and get some answers here, they've been trying for years.

But yeah, just go ahead and complain about lawyers and professional protesters. You disgust me.

jam_mac_jam

Its their kids and families in fairness. I hope my parents or my sisters wouldn't just say oh well its been a few years now lets just forget about it.

If it was one of my sisters or my son I would keep fighting.

is_that_so

D13exile wrote: »

What outcome? Let me see......
48 young people died.

Over 200 were injured.

No one was ever held accountable.

The Butterlys (owners of the Stardust) received over €730,000 in compensation from Dublin Corporation while the families of the dead and injured received nothing.

How about finding who was criminally responsible for locking fire exits?
How about finding out why the Butterlys, owners of the Stardust, get compensation from the state for their building that was the scene of the greatest loss of life from a fire in this country?

Smacks to me and a huge majority of people living near the Stardust that there was a cover up and the wealthy elite were protected and compensated by their powerful friends. What would you say? There's no proof of that? Probably why a proper enquiry was stalled for so long, so witnesses die, evidence is lost and people get away with what is nothing short of mass murder/manslaughter through gross negligence.

I'll be surprised if anything much of this will emerge. Can I also suggest you stop jumping on posters who just ask questions? I wish them luck but I wouldn't be optimistic.

Eric Cartman

PhilOssophy wrote: »

A bit like Hillsborough, if your child had died you might view time as not being a healer.
If this had happened in Club Anabel, just like if Hillsborough had happened at Twickenham, there would have been an investigation straight away.
But because it was in a working class part of Dublin, the political elite did not care.

If it was in a middle class part of dublin the chances of the doors being chained to stop people sneaking in, the fire being started and the overcrowding would be a lot less likely too.

Its not the fault of the dead by any chance, arsonist and the management hold all the blame. I hope this is admitted and those people named and put into the history books for this tragic incident.

anewme

Eric Cartman wrote: »

PhilOssophy wrote: »

A bit like Hillsborough, if your child had died you might view time as not being a healer.
If this had happened in Club Anabel, just like if Hillsborough had happened at Twickenham, there would have been an investigation straight away.
But because it was in a working class part of Dublin, the political elite did not care.

If it was in a middle class part of dublin the chances of the doors being chained to stop people sneaking in, the fire being started and the overcrowding would be a lot less likely too.

I find it incredulous that you have written this, when a poster has already said that a relative of theirs lost their life in the fire.

Have a bit of respect.

Eric Cartman

anewme wrote: »

I find it incredulous that you have written this, when a poster has already said that a relative of theirs lost their life in the fire.

Have a bit of respect.

I have said its a tragedy and the atendees (except the arsonist) were in no way at fault and that I hope those responsible are named and shamed.

I don't see anything wrong with pointing out that unfortunatly certain behaviours and certain 'security practices' are a lot more likely in low income areas, a sad fact but a fact.

Eric Cartman

Johnny Adairs Horse wrote: »

It was never proven that there was an arsonist.

Equally, it was never proven that it was accidental.

If they couldn't prove what causes it in 1981 how can they find out what caused it now?

im basing this off them getting the 'arson' payout. id imagine insurance investigators at the time tried their damn hardest to not pay out 580,000 pounds.

Esel

Eric Cartman wrote: »

im basing this off them getting the 'arson' payout. id imagine insurance investigators at the time tried their damn hardest to not pay out 580,000 pounds.

As opposed to much higher claims if the owners had been found liable....

mikeym

The families of those who died in the Hillsborough tragedy got justice.

The families of the Stardust fire have being fobbed off all these years and deserve justice.

Watch the videos on youtube if you want to educate yourselves because they died a horrible death

Electric Sheep

Some of us were actually there as well. Hard as it may be for some who think it was so long ago to believe.

Glass fused light

is_that_so wrote: »

There are questions and for long time the blame was on where the fire started and who might have done so. Some of that is already known. While it may be closure of a form for families it is not wrong nor trolling to wonder what the purpose of this inquest is. I'm curious as to what outcome it might reach.

Try be curious enought to put yourself in the place of a family member:

You and your 3 mates are at your house about to head out for the night.
Shout in to your Mam and Dad that your off going out the door.
Meet your sister on the doorstep and say you will see her later when she and her friends head out too.

Its dark the music is playing and your having a great time and the smell if cigarette smoke changes, people start to shout that there is a fire so you and your friends head for the nearest fire exit

When you get there you realise the exit is not opening its been chained closed
Now use your imagination as to how you get out or do you get out without harm? How about your 3 mates or your sister and her friend?

You are lucky and get out you have minor injuries and can only stand and watch the place burn to the ground knowing that there are still people inside.
You still have not found your sister or your mates.
How did your Mam and Dad find out your alive
What happened after that in the morning during the day and in the weeks that follow.

Nearly 40 years later all you have are the photos and the memories.
You got lucky and don't carry any burn scars

The one thing you don't have is a copy of the witness statement you gave about what happened that night. And it not because you refused to give a statement it's because the State had not taken a statement.

Now what do you think should be the first purpose of the inquest?

Foggy Jew

Villan11 wrote: »

Just a point of information, and not specific to this matter:
Inquests in Ireland are, by law, strictly precluded of considering or apportioning blame. The purpose of an inquest is to establish facts surrounding the circumstances of such events. An inquest cannot say that someone is to blame, or that someone is not to blame, it is a neutral hearing.

Exactly. I fear for the families who think they will get 'justice'. Nobody is going to be named, shamed or blamed by this inquest. Nobody.