Days off

Michelleb355

Hi.

I have a bit of a work situation I need advice with. My sister is getting married just after Christmas, I work in retail so just have the 25th off and then back to work. The manager has holidays from the 24th to early January every year and it’s company policy that no other member of staff can book more than one day off during that time. Under the circumstances (I’m also maid of honor ) I went to my manger to explain the situation and he told me there’s nothing to be done only take the day of the wedding off and be back in work the following morning. The wedding is in London so this is going to be next to impossible. He also told me I can go to HR but will more than likely be told the same thing. I’m working with the company 12 years and I don’t want to leave. Has anyone any advice?

cruizer101

Seems strange the manager gets so much off, worth going to hr anyway and see what they say.

Is there anyway you could arrange for another member of staff to cover your shift on their day off.
i.e. you take of the 27th, they take of the 28th but actually come in to cover for you not being there, you then owe them a days cover.

colm_mcm

cruizer101 wrote: »

Seems strange the manager gets so much off, worth going to hr anyway and see what they say.

Is there anyway you could arrange for another member of staff to cover your shift on their day off.
i.e. you take of the 27th, they take of the 28th but actually come in to cover for you not being there, you then owe them a days cover.

If the staff member covering takes the 28th off, they’d be working the 27th anyway?

Michelleb355

cruizer101 wrote: »

Seems strange the manager gets so much off, worth going to hr anyway and see what they say.

Is there anyway you could arrange for another member of staff to cover your shift on their day off.
i.e. you take of the 27th, they take of the 28th but actually come in to cover for you not being there, you then owe them a days cover.

.

He only takes 2 and a half weeks during the year and keeps the rest for Christmas.

I thought of asking someone to cover but my manager also said no to this. He wants everyone’s hours to be on the roster 😩

mooreman09

Michelleb355 wrote: »

Hi.

I have a bit of a work situation I need advice with. My sister is getting married just after Christmas, I work in retail so just have the 25th off and then back to work. The manager has holidays from the 24th to early January every year and it’s company policy that no other member of staff can book more than one day off during that time. Under the circumstances (I’m also maid of honor ) I went to my manger to explain the situation and he told me there’s nothing to be done only take the day of the wedding off and be back in work the following morning. The wedding is in London so this is going to be next to impossible. He also told me I can go to HR but will more than likely be told the same thing. I’m working with the company 12 years and I don’t want to leave. Has anyone any advice?

I hate hearing rubbish like this OP. Its extremely unfair on you. Dispensation should be granted here out of pure common sense.

Sounds like a poor manager if they can't sort this for you. Hope HR resolve it.

Michelleb355

mooreman09 wrote: »

I hate hearing rubbish like this OP. Its extremely unfair on you. Dispensation should be granted here out of pure common sense.

Sounds like a poor manager if they can't sort this for you. Hope HR resolve it.

That’s exactly what I thought. It’s a family wedding so I thought they would make an exception but apparently not.

loyatemu

after 12 years? might be time to move on if that's how little they care.

Michelleb355

loyatemu wrote: »

after 12 years? might be time to move on if that's how little they care.

Ok so I’m getting the impression from these responses that I’m not being overly demanding? Because to be honest in the beginning I wasn’t sure. Also asking for 3 days off. Saturday to fly over, Sunday for the wedding and Monday to fly home. I’d be back in work on the Tuesday. Not ideal but I knew all along I couldn’t take more than 3 days not never thought it would be an issue taking 3

odyssey06

Is there anything to be said for just not turning up? And if they say anything say your flight was delayed.
If HR make an issue of it then there's a whole can of worms there about what the manager is up to.

Be prepared to walk away \ take a slap on the wrists if it comes to that.

After 12 years & the amount of notice you are giving, you are being treated very shabbily.

Michelleb355

odyssey06 wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for just not turning up? And if they say anything say your flight was delayed.
If HR make an issue of it then there's a whole can of worms there about what the manager is up to.

Ya iv thought about doing that and might have to. The manager could easily come to work for 2 days and add those 2 back to the end of his holiday but he is refusing

Batgurl

Why are you asking?

You are giving enough notice. Just inform them that you won’t be available on dates x, y and z. Then it’s down to them to sort.

You sound like you are being way too nice.

Michelleb355

Batgurl wrote: »

Why are you asking?

You are giving enough notice. Just inform them that you won’t be available on dates x, y and z. Then it’s down to them to sort.

You sound like you are being way too nice.

That’s what I done and the manager said no you have to work on 2 of the days I requested off. And when I explained the situation he showed me the company policy book which states when the manger is on annual leave member of staff can request more than one day off at a time. I don’t think this has ever happened on the company before

Batgurl

Batgurl wrote: »

Why are you asking?

You are giving enough notice. Just inform them that you won’t be available on dates x, y and z. Then it’s down to them to sort.

You sound like you are being way too nice.

Because while leave is obliged the employer gets to decide when.

If the OP stays 12 years the employer must be OK, no?

Michelleb355

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because while leave is obliged the employer gets to decide when.

If the OP stays 12 years the employer must be OK, no?

Never had a problem with them until now

SusieBlue

Its not uncommon for this to be the standard in retail & hospitality industry over the festive period, unfortunately.

I would write a clear, concise email, to HR to plead you case.
Highlight your 12 years of dedicated service, and explain your extenuating circumstances for your request.
Say that you understand policy etc. but you're hoping they can make a one off exception in your case.
Include proof, such as a picture of the invitation/screenshot of flights etc. so that they know your reasons are legitimate and that you aren't making up a sob story to go on the piss with your friends or something.
Have you worked Xmas Eve/New Years Eve/Day over the last few years? If so definitely mention that too, so that they can see you have been flexible and accommodating in the past.
Copy in your manager and anyone else in a position of authority over you. Say you are available to meet in person at their discretion to discuss any concerns or issues they may have.

Don't do it in person or over phone, you want a paper trail here. Also, if its via email, they are obliged to hear you out and actually read your request. I found that if I made requests like yours in person, I'd be cut off & interrupted and simply told no.

Fingers crossed they will grant your leave and you will be able to go, but if not, you should hand in your notice without question.

Salary Negotiator

Michelleb355 wrote: »

Ok so I’m getting the impression from these responses that I’m not being overly demanding? Because to be honest in the beginning I wasn’t sure. Also asking for 3 days off. Saturday to fly over, Sunday for the wedding and Monday to fly home. I’d be back in work on the Tuesday. Not ideal but I knew all along I couldn’t take more than 3 days not never thought it would be an issue taking 3

I worked and managed in retail for a number of years and if you came to me with this request then I’d do whatever I had to to make it happen.

Its completely unreasonable of him not to at least look into how to accommodate your request. I’d try and have a word with whoever is next in line above your manager, might even be worth mentioning that you’re goin to do this.

paulpd

"which states when the manger is on annual leave member of staff can request more than one day off at a time".


Is there a difference between one person off for 3 days and three different people off for a day each? If others aren't taking leave then there shouldn't be an issue.


After 12 years you should have some sort of "clout" / seniority. And with the notice period you're giving, they are being very unfair.

Batgurl

Just politely reiterate you aren’t available on those dates.

It’s their problem, not yours.

Any company who fires you under these circumstances is leaving themselves wide open for constructive dismissal.

SusieBlue

Batgurl wrote: »

Just politely reiterate you aren’t available on those dates.

It’s their problem, not yours.

Any company who fires you under these circumstances is leaving themselves wide open for constructive dismissal.

I don't mean this in a condescending way, but it doesn't work like that in retail or hospitality. If she does that she'll be out of a job.
Her annual leave is at the discretion of the employer. She can't just not show up after being told no, and expect no consequences.

Purple Mountain

^^ That's very poor advice.
The manager in a company has the sign off on all annual leave.
If they didn't then, any employee could just demand their leave any time they wanted.
I agree that this lady is being treated piss poor here but still, the advice you give isn't correct or advisable.

False Prophet

Batgurl wrote: »

Just politely reiterate you aren’t available on those dates.

It’s their problem, not yours.

Any company who fires you under these circumstances is leaving themselves wide open for constructive dismissal.

It doesnt work like that. You cant just decide when you want to work. Otherwise what stops the rest of workers politely asking for same days off?

TheShow

Batgurl wrote: »

Just politely reiterate you aren’t available on those dates.

It’s their problem, not yours.

Any company who fires you under these circumstances is leaving themselves wide open for constructive dismissal.

Absolutely,
advise HR in writing that you are not available to work on the days outlined for the reasons as stated.
You've given them plenty of notice.

cruizer101

colm_mcm wrote: »

If the staff member covering takes the 28th off, they’d be working the 27th anyway?

Yeah it means they are losing out on their day off, which you will owe them back
They would be doing you a favour by doing it so you may have trouble getting someone to agree to it but it may be only option.
I'd be getting them a present if they did agree.

it is quite unreasonable for them to not agree to it tbh.

On the taking 3 could you work early on the saturday and fly out that evening.

SusieBlue

TheShow wrote: »

Absolutely,
advise HR in writing that you are not available to work on the days outlined for the reasons as stated.
You've given them plenty of notice.

That's not how it works.
Annual leave is at the discretion of her employer.

That might work in a big multinational but it won't work in a supermarket or restaurant etc., where they can have someone hired to replace you within a few hours.
And I say that to cause no offense to the OP, its just the reality of it.
I worked in the industry myself for many years and that was how it was.
If you were a troublemaker you were easily replaced, if it came down to it.

False Prophet

False Prophet wrote: »

It doesnt work like that. You cant just decide when you want to work. Otherwise what stops the rest of workers politely asking for same days off?

There is a trade off.
The OP can ask, the company can say no.
The OP can say they won't be working, the company can? Discipline them, fire them, say nothing, grumble but do nothing.
There are lots of options.

How big is this company OP?
Is it a busy period?

Are there other branches and is it the same there?

the boss of me

Just pop down to your doctor and get a cert... There's plenty of illness's that would allow you attend a wedding but render you incapable of working.
You probably won't get paid so take that into account.

More often than not I see things from the side of the employer.

However, in this case I'd not be happy to be treated that way.

And, especially in the current climate, no company will want to lose 12 years experience.

OP, I'd contact HR and go over their heads to senior management/owners if necessary. Does anyone seriously think any of them would miss their sister's wedding. Madness.

SusieBlue

the boss of me wrote: »

Just pop down to your doctor and get a cert... There's plenty of illness's that would allow you attend a wedding but render you incapable of working.
You probably won't get paid so take that into account.

Sick Certs explain absences but don't excuse them. She could still be heavily disciplined or even fired with a sick cert.

Batgurl

I’ve worked in retail, hospitality, HR and lots of other careers in between. With all due respect to those saying “it’s not how it works”, that may be your experience but mine is that if you are honest and firm in any job, then you won’t get shat on.

The company doesn’t have a blanket “no leave” policy because the manager is off. So the company are giving that staff member preferential treatment over all other staff. It’s a discrimination case waiting to happen.

rsl1976

Is it not also unfair that the manager gets to take those days every year and no one else can be off?

I would definitely be going to HR

SusieBlue

Batgurl wrote: »

I’ve worked in retail, hospitality, HR and lots of other careers in between. With all due respect to those saying “it’s not how it works”, that may be your experience but mine is that if you are honest and firm in any job, then you won’t get shat on.

The company doesn’t have a blanket “no leave” policy because the manager is off. So the company are giving that staff member preferential treatment over all other staff. It’s a discrimination case waiting to happen.

But she isn't a manager.
Its very common for companies to have policies that restrict the leave of the sales assistants/waiters/bar staff (aka frontline staff) during busy periods, but are more lenient with senior management.
That isn't discrimination because her manager doesn't have the same role/job as she does.

Most of the bars I worked in had similar policies. One had a total blanket ban for annual leave for any member of staff who wasn't a manager for the whole month of December.

o1s1n

If you look back on the situation in another ten years, do you think you'll:

A: Still be working for the same company, much higher up and glad you made the decision to miss such a huge event as it contributed to your career.

Or

B: working somewhere else, looking back and being amazed the thought even entered your mind to miss your sisters wedding.

I actually know someone who cut their OWN wedding plans short (got rid of their honeymoon completely) because work decided that they couldn't have the time off over the Christmas period. They flew back to work the day after their wedding.

The guy now works somewhere completely different and cannot believe he did that. It's amazing the difference a bit of time and perspective puts on things.

the boss of me

SusieBlue wrote: »

the boss of me wrote: »

Just pop down to your doctor and get a cert... There's plenty of illness's that would allow you attend a wedding but render you incapable of working.
You probably won't get paid so take that into account.

Sick Certs explain absences but don't excuse them. She could still be heavily disciplined or even fired with a sick cert.

Maybe in theory from some management manual.
Not in the real world. Any sanction could be appealed to the EAT quicker than you could say unfair dismissal.

False Prophet

rsl1976 wrote: »

Is it not also unfair that the manager gets to take those days every year and no one else can be off?

I would definitely be going to HR

Unfair yes.
Unlawful no.

the boss of me

the boss of me wrote: »

Maybe in theory from some management manual.
Not in the real world. Any sanction could be appealed to the EAT quicker than you could say unfair dismissal.

Arggh, I'm edging back towards the dark side.

No, the company could sanction the employee if they went about it the correct way. A sick cert simply means that the employer cannot allow the employee to attend work.

But, as we know some sick certs aren't worth the paper they are printed on (GPs like money too).

The company could instigate an investigation (through proper procedures) and if the employee was found to have gone abroad and had no possibility of getting back in time for work the sick cert would be found to be insufficient.

Now, I don't think that would happen, but it could.

False Prophet

Batgurl wrote: »

I’ve worked in retail, hospitality, HR and lots of other careers in between. With all due respect to those saying “it’s not how it works”, that may be your experience but mine is that if you are honest and firm in any job, then you won’t get shat on.

The company doesn’t have a blanket “no leave” policy because the manager is off. So the company are giving that staff member preferential treatment over all other staff. It’s a discrimination case waiting to happen.

With due respect have you proper HR qualifications?
Because companies can certainly have a policy when leave can be taken and management can get preferential treatment/perks as it's not discriminatory.

OP needs to speak with HR and look for help. Ask HR what they would do in her shoes and show evidence of wedding etc. Any decent Hr manager will find a solution as Op is not asking for much.
If HR agree with manager then OP will then need to decide what to do next.
But Imo she isnt being discriminated against.

kala85

SusieBlue wrote: »

Sick Certs explain absences but don't excuse them. She could still be heavily disciplined or even fired with a sick cert.

How? Can you elaborate on this please?

locum-motion

paulpd wrote: »

"which states when the manger is on annual leave member of staff can request more than one day off at a time"...

But the policy doesn't appear to say "the manager gets the Christmas-to-New-Year week every year without exception, and no one else can".

It's a bit unfair of the manager to insist that he and only he can have the most attractive week of the year for his holidays each and every year, and it's quite possible that HR isn't aware that that's what he's doing.

The previous suggestion of an e-mail to HR is probably the way to go.

Michelleb355

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is a trade off.
The OP can ask, the company can say no.
The OP can say they won't be working, the company can? Discipline them, fire them, say nothing, grumble but do nothing.
There are lots of options.

How big is this company OP?
Is it a busy period?

Are there other branches and is it the same there?

Very small shop. I think the issue is that if others got sick then they would be afraid of being left short staff. There are other branches but none in the same county as me so staff transfer not an option

SusieBlue

kala85 wrote: »

How? Can you elaborate on this please?

A cert explains why you didn’t come to work but it doesn’t excuse it.
You can still be disciplined for not showing up to work, even if you have a cert.

Its a common myth that you can just get a sick cert if your employer denies you annual leave and that they can’t touch you cause you have a doctors note - that’s absolutely not the case.
They don’t have to accept it and you can still be disciplined.

3DataModem

the boss of me wrote: »

Maybe in theory from some management manual.
Not in the real world. Any sanction could be appealed to the EAT quicker than you could say unfair dismissal.

The EAT hasn’t existed for two years.

OP: your employer is within their rights, but is being unreasonable. Up to you what you do about that.

3DataModem

kala85 wrote: »

How? Can you elaborate on this please?

You can be sacked for not showing up, even if sick, even if certified. However most companies don’t do this of course.

Optimalprimerib

Would you not be entitled to two days off anyway in your rostered week, so that you take one holiday and then your two days.

If it was me I wouldn't be asking, I'd be telling. Your giving them enough notice and go to hr about it.

During the peak time the manager should also not be allowed take holidays like that.

facehugger99

Write to HR and tell them due to personal circumstances you won' be in a position to work those days

Don't go into details and don't word it as a request.

Then enjoy your sister's wedding.

Life happens and they will be able to deal with it.

You are not being unreasonable - they are - an employment tribunal will very likely see it this way too if it came to it.

threetrees

I think you get further being open, honest and polite. Raise it with HR, explain you've always worked over Christmas for 12 years, however this year will be an exception as you've a family wedding in the UK. You realise this is not ideal but it really is an exceptional circumstance. I don't think I'd be petty and mention the managers (unreasonable length of) time off. Ask HR if you could take the days unpaid? (Although I think it's cover and roster that's the issue, not pay).

I feel for you, that is a horrible situation to be in and answering to such a selfish manager would irk me.

Hi OP

I realize you might work in a rural area or an area where there aren’t many other jobs, or maybe you can’t commute further for work. But unless I was absolutely mad about my job I’d be looking at changing jobs/career if I had to deal with this level of inflexibility after 12 years of loyalty in a job !

Even 12 years in the same job is rare these days, most people move around and switch jobs. There is more choice and opportunity now. You could train and be qualified to look outside of retail where you no longer have those restrictions put on you. Retail is great experience but I’m not sure I’d want it for life . I’d hate to be dictated to in that way. We all have lives . As another poster said you’ll look back on this sometime and wonder why you put up with it is long .

Life is also for living , for spending the time with family at the most important time of their lives , it’s not JUST about work . I personally wouldn’t be able to deal with a manager who took the entire Christmas off every year but insisted nobody else got any time off especially with the loyalty of 12 years working over Christmas!

I hope you get sorted, don’t miss the wedding , you will need those 3 days if it’s in London . Maybe this is the push you need to consider a change .

Wanderer78

Sickie, fcuk'em, enjoy the wedding

STB.

Ah a true leadership manager.


Plenty of them out there.


I'm sure he can rearrange the deck chairs if he could be arsed with 3 months notice!

splinter65

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Sickie, fcuk'em, enjoy the wedding

What if she gets sacked when she comes back? That’s not much good to her in the month of January?

Wanderer78

splinter65 wrote:

What if she gets sacked when she comes back? That’s not much good to her in the month of January?

Sacked, for missing a day! A warning and a bollocking more like.

SusieBlue

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Sacked, for missing a day! A warning and a bollocking more like.

Where I work, not showing up to work after being denied annual leave for the same dates would be considered gross misconduct and the employee would very likely be fired.
Its not something that would be tolerated. You can't just call in sick when your leave doesn't get approved and expect to get away with it.