No permission to go ahead with repair work

chases0102

Hi all,

My wife recently dropped a car 2007 car into a garage in order to fix up some things that it failed the NCT on - (bushings, tail-light, issue with belt buckle, moisture in lamp).

Wife dropped it in, along with the NCT sheet. Wife rang on Friday to see was it ready, the mechanic said no, and that it would be ready on Monday.

Wife had two missed calls on Saturday which was from a landline different to the garage's, which presumably was the garage, just a different phone. No voicemail left.

Wife then rang this morning to see if car was ready - it was. And then the cost - nearly €600.

Now, having seen the NCT cert and what I would consider minor enough issues to be sorted I could not believe what I heard.

Not once did I or my wife agree to that cost. In my experience every time something needs to be done the garage would ring and give the cost and look for consent to do the work.

I'm very angry and quite reluctant to pay that money, despite the fact we really need the car.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

GBX

Did you specifically tell the garage to do all or only a portion of the work done on the NCT cert to get it sorted? Along with the other bits needed. Ask them for a break down of cost - parts and labour.

chases0102

Cheers for reply.

My understanding is that the NCT cert was handed over, and to do the work that would enable the car to pass the NCT.

My issue is that no call came, with the price, to go ahead with the work. I would have thought that was standard practice?

I have a breakdown of the work done (including a battery that was put into the car key which was neither requested by us or on the NCT cert) that I just got off the phone from them.

CoBo55

Get an itemised bill first and see what they're charging you for.

chases0102

Cheers for reply. I have a rough itemised bill here from phone call:

2 droplinks - 28.40

2 anti roll bar bushings - 9.80

Tail light - 108

Seatbelt - 60

4 bulbs - 20

Reverse light - 38

Battery Key - 6

Labour 190

PsychoPete

You dropped the car in for repairs to be carried out for the car to pass the nct which they did.Surely that's giving them the go ahead to repair the car because the customer booked it in for those repairs. Did your wife ask for a price before the car was dropped in

Cee-Jay-Cee

Your wife left the car in and asked for the work to be done. They done the work and presented her with the bill. Very clear cut and simple.

Did your wife ask them to ring her and let her know the cost before doing the work? If yes then you have a case. if not then you have no one to blame but yourself (or your wife) and put it down to experience.

CoBo55

What did the NCT sheet show? Apart from the key fob battery the other items are NCT failures. Reversing light looks like it was a replacement switch that was needed, 20 sovs for 4 bulbs is a bit scaldy. How many hours are they claiming they spent on the car?

chases0102

No, wife did not ask for a price.

I'm aware that there might not be a whole lot that can be done here, but I would have assumed that a phone call was made with the approximate cost of the repair work.

chases0102

CoBo55 wrote: »

What did the NCT sheet show? Apart from the key fob battery the other items are NCT failures. Reversing light looks like it was a replacement switch that was needed, 20 sovs for 4 bulbs is a bit scaldy. How many hours are they claiming they spent on the car?

I have no idea how many hours were spent on the car - must ask them that question.

Midnight_EG

My maths says your total is €460ish, wheres the other €140?

Tow

The moral of the story is always get a quote first and tell them not to do any extra work without clearing it first. Otherwise known as, don't let the wife drop in the car to be fixed!
A hard lesson learned by many, including me.

Bullocks

Midnight_EG wrote: »

My maths says your total is €460ish, wheres the other €140?

Maybe VAT

chases0102

VAT, I presume? Although that doesn't add up either

Midnight_EG

VAT at 23% on parts and 13.5% on labour still doesn't add up. Methinks there's something amiss.

chases0102

Tow wrote: »

The moral of the story is always get a quote first and tell them not to do any extra work without clearing it first. Otherwise known as, don't let the wife drop in the car to be fixed!
A hard lesson learned by many, including me.

Yeah, it's the assuming permission to go ahead with it that's annoying. This is only the second time I've used this garage and was always used to getting a phone call re cost first.

Tacitus Kilgore

Did you ask them to call with a price before fixing it?

Or just drop in a NCT fail sheet and ask them to sort it?


Garage doesn't seem terribly in the wrong to me but would be keen to know how it played out

Toyotafanboi

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Your wife left the car in and asked for the work to be done. They done the work and presented her with the bill. Very clear cut and simple.

Did your wife ask them to ring her and let her know the cost before doing the work? If yes then you have a case. if not then you have no one to blame but yourself (or your wife) and put it down to experience.

I think that's it in a nutshell really, a courtesy call to quote may have been better practise, but you asked them to fix the car, not quote you for fixing the car.

Sure you could argue, where would they have drawn the line. The bill seems reasonable for the work you got done, without knowing the make and model, so even though they didn't apply common sense to ringing you before hand they did to authorising a sensible amount of repair work.

Not much can be done now anyway, really.

chases0102

Yeah I agree, I guess I'm just very frustrated with how this played out.

As far as I know the cert was handed in and asked to sort.

I suppose I'm wondering if it's normal not to get a call looking for permission to proceed.

I know its a slightly different scenario but whenever I drop my car in for a service the mechanic himself says he will ring before going ahead with anything outside the normal service (oil change, filters etc). Even if he didn't say that I would just usually mention it to him on the phone or when I'm dropping off the car "don't do anything without running it past me first". Its almost the norm now that garages do this I would have thought??

Toyotafanboi

chases0102 wrote: »

As far as I know the cert was handed in and asked to sort.

I suppose I'm wondering if it's normal not to get a call looking for permission to proceed.

It would be more normal, when you leave the car and the cert with them and ask them to sort it, not to quote for it.

To an extent and correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression you are more aggrieved with the cost to repair, than the actual asking for permission based on cost?

chases0102

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

It would be more normal, when you leave the car and the cert with them and ask them to sort it, not to quote for it.

To an extent and correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression you are more aggrieved with the cost to repair, than the actual asking for permission based on cost?

Yeah, that's accurate - I think the cost is what is bothering me. If we received a call and got that quote, I definitely would have looked elsewhere.

Whocare

chases0102 wrote: »

Yeah, that's accurate - I think the cost is what is bothering me. If we received a call and got that quote, I definitely would have looked elsewhere.

How much was bill

chases0102

570

Toyotafanboi

chases0102 wrote: »

Yeah, that's accurate - I think the cost is what is bothering me. If we received a call and got that quote, I definitely would have looked elsewhere.

That's fair, money is hard got.

For what it's worth, it doesn't immediately sound like you've paid over the odds, but a call would certainly have been courteous.

Have you collected the car yet?

chases0102

Haven't collected the car yet, will have to this evening. The work has been done.

I'm getting a consensus here that we weren't particularly hard done by, which may suggest I was just over-reacting to the cost. This is why I came onto Boards, to get the opinion of others, and so am glad to concede that we have no grounds for complaint.

But I still maintain they should have sought permission, particularly with a big bill such as that.

CoBo55

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

That's fair, money is hard got.

For what it's worth, it doesn't immediately sound like you've paid over the odds, but a call would certainly have been courteous.

Have you collected the car yet?

Why would they call? The car was left in with a fail sheet and the fail issues were sorted as instructed, as I said earlier 20 euros for 4 bulbs is a bit sore but if people aren't bothered changing bulbs themselves that's the price you pay.

Toyotafanboi

Well you might aswell put the sh1ts up him now and tell him you dont have the money.

Give him 2-3 seconds of silence to mull over his questionable decision in his head, he'll know himself it's dodgy territory. Then as the first bead of sweat breaks through his temple, tell him your only joking, but you just as easily may not have been because he never asked for permission.

Then ask, can he do a little better. Settle at €550 and be happy enough?

Tacitus Kilgore

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Well you might aswell put the sh1ts up him now and tell him you dont have the money.

Give him 2-3 seconds of silence to mull over his questionable decision in his head, he'll know himself it's dodgy territory. Then as the first bead of sweat breaks through his temple, tell him your only joking, but you just as easily may not have been because he never asked for permission.

Then ask, can he do a little better. Settle at €550 and be happy enough?

Think your view is a little harsh on the garage tbh, reading again:



1. OP drops car in with fail sheet,
2. Calls on friday to see if it's finished - it's not, gets told it will be ready monday.
3. Misses 2 calls on saturday (presumably to tell op it's finished)
4. Finds out on monday that the work is complete and receives cost info
5. Reads point number 2 again
6. Complains that the garage never phoned before they started

kirving

chases0102 wrote: »

570

Still looks like something missing from your itemised list, even if you add VAT on.

I get that some people here working in garages see multi-thousand repair bills every week and think nothing of €600. In terms of running a car for a year €600 isn't a huge percentage either, but to many people (myself included) it's a lot of money.

I get too that it's work that has to be done - nothing quoted looks to be excessive in my opinions.

But the one thing I absolutely cannot accept is some mechanics belief that it's OK to do work and present a bill for X amount at the end - even if that bill is reasonable or even objectively good value for necessary (safety) work.

I recently got a bill of over €1500 which I accepted without issue as I knew the work had to be done, and I was informed along the way.

In my work I deal with suppliers on a daily basis who quote for upgrades and fixes to machinery. There is rarely if ever a disagreement on what has to be done to fix something. We have fixed priced agreement in place for labour, materials, etc. and I can nearly guess at this stage what something is going to cost.

Nevertheless, nothing is started until a quote is submitted, accepted by us and a purchase order issued in turn to the supplier for the work to be completed. And that's for professionals all in the know about what has to be done.

In my eyes, presenting a bill to a customer after work has been done without agreement as to the price, is about as close to extortion as you can get. I know loads of people who felt as though they had been ripped off whether or not that is actually true.

I'm absolutely generalising here, but if mechanics want to be seen as professionals, then they have to start acting like professionals in this regard.

Toyotafanboi

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Think your view is a little harsh on the garage tbh, reading again:



1. OP drops car in with fail sheet,
2. Calls on friday to see if it's finished - it's not, gets told it will be ready monday.
3. Misses 2 calls on saturday (presumably to tell op it's finished)
4. Finds out on monday that the work is complete and receives cost info
5. Reads point number 2 again
6. Complains that the garage never phoned before they started

Me, personally, I can't win. I'm often accused of siding too much with the garage.

I do believe the garage is wrong not to have quoted before starting even if the customer didn't request it. It's good practise and prevents a lot of headaches on both sides.

The customer is also out of order for requesting them to "sort" the car, then complaining after the fact about the price, when they pre authorised the work.

The garage should know better as the professional in the situation, really, although the customer had a part to play.

CoBo55

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Well you might aswell put the sh1ts up him now and tell him you dont have the money.

Give him 2-3 seconds of silence to mull over his questionable decision in his head, he'll know himself it's dodgy territory. Then as the first bead of sweat breaks through his temple, tell him your only joking, but you just as easily may not have been because he never asked for permission.

Then ask, can he do a little better. Settle at €550 and be happy enough?

What permission? The car wasn't left in for oil and filter and things were tacked on afterwards. It was left in with a specific list, this was adhered to and completed as instructed ( with the exception of the fob battery), if it was my garage I certainly wouldn't be haggling, she's around the back there when you have the bobs, end of discussion...

Tacitus Kilgore

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Me, personally, I can't win. I'm often accused of siding too much with the garage.

I do believe the garage is wrong not to have quoted before starting even if the customer didn't request it. It's good practise and prevents a lot of headaches on both sides.

The customer is also out of order for requesting them to "sort" the car, then complaining after the fact about the price, when they pre authorised the work.

The garage should know better as the professional in the situation, really, although the customer had a part to play.

ah not you personally, just closest reply to click reply to.


But just riddle me this - customer phoned on friday - asked mechanic is the car done, mechanic says no - it will be done monday.

This insinuates that the car is being, or about to be worked on, and that the car owner is pleased to proceed - I would then think that this would be the perfect time for the OP to speak up and maybe ask how much it's going to be?


Going "putting the shits up" the garage, for the ops lack inability to ask, is shite behaviour imo.

Toyotafanboi

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

But just riddle me this - customer phoned on friday - asked mechanic is the car done, mechanic says no - it will be done monday.

This insinuates that the car is being, or about to be worked on, and that the car owner is pleased to proceed - I would then think that this would be the perfect time for the OP to speak up and maybe ask how much it's going to be?


Going "putting the shits up" the garage, for the ops lack inability to ask, is shite behaviour imo.

I agree with your first 2 paragraphs completely.

Having spent many a year working in a service department reception, best practise is to quote before you start, no matter what the customer says, 100% of the time. It's better for the business and better for the customer.

It's a very simple thing and avoids this exact scenario.

Tazzimus

CoBo55 wrote: »

Why would they call? The car was left in with a fail sheet and the fail issues were sorted as instructed, as I said earlier 20 euros for 4 bulbs is a bit sore but if people aren't bothered changing bulbs themselves that's the price you pay.

Some bulbs can be quite hard to change with how cars are designed now, I pretty much have to pull the headlight on mine to replace any of the bulbs up front.

bucketybuck

chases0102 wrote: »

As far as I know the cert was handed in and asked to sort.

I suppose I'm wondering if it's normal not to get a call looking for permission to proceed.

Permission to proceed?

They already had it, they were specifically asked to do that work. What more permission does a reasonable person need?

If you said you were not going to pay because permission was not given you would be totally in the wrong, going by the info we have here they absolutely were asked to do the work they did.

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Think your view is a little harsh on the garage tbh, reading again:



1. OP drops car in with fail sheet,
2. Calls on friday to see if it's finished - it's not, gets told it will be ready monday.
3. Misses 2 calls on saturday (presumably to tell op it's finished)
4. Finds out on monday that the work is complete and receives cost info
5. Reads point number 2 again
6. Complains that the garage never phoned before they started

This would be my opinion. Everything about this scenario shows that the garage were asked to do a job. They were not asked to diagnose a fault or provide an estimate, they were specifically asked to do the work. Not only that, the customer knew they were doing the work.

It is indeed best practice to double check that the customer is aware of the likely costs, but to be honest, with a generic enough fail list such as that described I can understand why a garage might just plough on. How many times are they really going to ring a customer to say, "those worn bushes on that NCT fail list you have already asked us to put right, are you really sure you want us to do them?"

pippip

Personally I'm with the garage on this one.

If you didn't ask for a price then you can't really complain when you don't get one. I do agree its bad form on the garages part not to phone anyway with quote. You did hand in a car and tell them to fix what was on the list.

As others have said it does seem good value so don't think you would have got much better elsewhere.

From the garages point of: this was NCT work, there was no question of whether it needed to be done so they went ahead with it. The fact that you rang up on Friday to ask was it done would make you come across as wanting it done asap.

bucketybuck

pippip wrote: »

From the garages point of: this was NCT work, there was no question of whether it needed to be done so they went ahead with it.

A common enough thing to hear is that something "needed to be done", but as far as I am concerned in our workshops there is a standing rule, "there is nothing that needs to be done, only what we are being paid to do". A car might not be able to drive unless we fit the part but that still doesn't mean it needs to be done.

I just don't think it applies in this case, they were instructed to do the work.

argentum

To be honest you come across as a bit naïve. You dropped in the car with a list of things to be done.
You rang and asked was the car ready and they then worked on it and tried ringing you.
You say you would have asked other garages for a price if you knew that it would have cost that much but never rang other garages in the first place.
Check the bill is totaled correctly and if the car doesn't pass its test then you have grounds to complain

Fiftyfilthy

A few years ago I was quoted at 140e for a specific job , they kept the car a little longer than expected (considerably )

I told them at the start if anything Changes regarding price or work to call me

Bill was just under 700e they had to do additional work

I explained that we agreed to contact me if went above 140e

They accepted this and charged me 140e for the work done

Wasn’t expecting that outcome and have brought cars to them since over the years

irelandrover

I dropped a car in with a list of work needed for the NCT with one or 2 things that needed to be investigated.
Asked for an estimate and to work away as long as it was under a certain value.

Why would you drop a car into a mechanic with a list of required work, and not ask for an estimate if price was so important to you?

Turbohymac

Looking at price for parts and labour you actually didn't pay over the average.. and if you requested the repairs to be carried out to enable the car to pass the nct then I can't fault the garage in any way.. unless you were prepared to do the work yourself and source second hand parts... you could have asked for an estimate before hand. And then made up your own mind as to either repair or scrap the car..either way vehicles need to be maintained

chases0102

Thanks everyone for the replies here, really helpful to get all perspectives!

kirving

argentum wrote: »

To be honest you come across as a bit naïve. You dropped in the car with a list of things to be done.
You rang and asked was the car ready and they then worked on it and tried ringing you.
You say you would have asked other garages for a price if you knew that it would have cost that much but never rang other garages in the first place.
Check the bill is totaled correctly and if the car doesn't pass its test then you have grounds to complain

It doesn't matter how naive the customer is, it's in the garage's responsibility, and also in their own best interest to ensure that the work is affordable to the customer.

The garage in this scenario is the professional who does this dozens of times per week, versus a customer who might get their car looked at every year or two.

I don't see how there can be any debate about it? A customer almost by definition has no idea of the work involved when they say "fix my car" so the onus is on the professional in the scenario to explain the details as a doctor would do.

In my recent experience, what could have been a €2 jubilee clip ended up as major €1500+ job.

chases0102

Bit more to it apparently.

Wife asked mechanic the price - he said he would call later that day (Thursday) but never did.

She called on riday for a price but another man was there who didn't know details. He said he'd have someone call back.

So my wife did in fact ask for a price.

pippip

chases0102 wrote: »

Bit more to it apparently.

Wife asked mechanic the price - he said he would call later that day (Thursday) but never did.

She called on riday for a price but another man was there who didn't know details. He said he'd have someone call back.

So my wife did in fact ask for a price.

So scrap last three pages and thread starts here.

But still. Work needed doing, seemingly good price.... not sure anything would have been any different apart from the surprise on the Friday rather than the Monday.

Toyotafanboi

pippip wrote: »

So scrap last three pages and thread starts here.

But still. Work needed doing, seemingly good price.... not sure anything would have been any different apart from the surprise on the Friday rather than the Monday.

To be fair that's a huge piece of information to omit and completely changes everything, the crucial difference being the quote was or should have been OP's opportunity to decline based on price or whatever else. It's a lot more difficult for both parties now as the parts are fitted to the car. The garage have a hold over the OP as their parts are in his car and OP has a hold over the garage as their parts are attached to his car. These can get messy, quickly.

chases0102

I agree, this information changes everything.

It sounds like the garage have had a significant breakdown in communication between at least three people.

chases0102

Just off phone to garage again - they have 100% accepted that they were in the wrong to go ahead with work despite not providing a price.

Not entirely sure how we move from here, however.

Fiftyfilthy

chases0102 wrote: »

Just off phone to garage again - they have 100% accepted that they were in the wrong to go ahead with work despite not providing a price.

Not entirely sure how we move from here, however.

They will have to break the car until it has all the original issues

lawred2

chases0102 wrote: »

Just off phone to garage again - they have 100% accepted that they were in the wrong to go ahead with work despite not providing a price.

Not entirely sure how we move from here, however.

Not a whole lot really. Pay them for the work and put your car through an NCT. It's not like you're going to get them to undo the work in reality.

Have you priced up the job card elsewhere?

If you could produce a number of costed job cards showing that you've been overcharged without being given the chance to cost up alternatives then you could push for the difference.

They don't have to give it to you though.

I wouldn't be using them ever again all the same.