The "NoFap" movement

Kermit.de.frog

*checks calendar*

Nope, definitely not April 1st.


https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/sep/09/whats-causing-women-to-join-the-nofap-movement

So...

Kristel is a follower of NoFap, a platform that encourages its users to refrain from masturbation. She claims her new lifestyle has led to a complete physical and mental reformation.

Kristel explains: “Even though most of the responses I get are encouraging and positive, there is also a side of people not taking it seriously. They think girls don’t even masturbate to begin with.”

The flippantly named NoFap community has gained a strange prominence since it was founded in 2011 by Pittsburgh web developer Alexander Rhodes. Inspired by a small study that suggested that male testosterone levels rose after seven days of abstinence from ejaculation, followers avoid masturbation in order to “reboot” their brains.

What do you make of Kristel's outlook on things in relation to this? She makes some ok points?

Reati

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

*checks calender*

Nope, definitely not April first.


https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/sep/09/whats-causing-women-to-join-the-nofap-movement

So...







What do you make of Kristel's outlook on things in relation to this? She makes some ok points?

Its only 10 to 7. I think at you need a fap and to go back to sleep!

Kermit.de.frog

Reati wrote: »

Its only 10 to 7. I think at you need a fap and to go back to sleep!

I'm just sayin - half a million w****** have signed up to this. But yes, back to bed.

Idiot boy

Too late for me already this morning...😉

Ken.

Are ya still allowed to ride?

vicwatson

Blue balls cases on the up

Bob Harris

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I'm just sayin - half a million w****** have signed up to this. But yes, back to bed.

But if they signed up they're not **** anymore.

One eyed Jack

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What do you make of Kristel's outlook on things in relation to this? She makes some ok points?

She makes the same silly justifications for her idiocy as the rest of ‘em Kermit, nothing to see here... literally :pac:

I will admit the idea of an expectation of gender equality among incels made me chuckle

suicide_circus

its alright on the odd occasion but if youre a chronic self abuser its not great. it will damage your sex life - if youre in a relationship you should be chasing your missus up the stairs pretty frequently, not rubbing a lazy one out on the jacks and if youre single and would like sex with an actual person you need to stop wasting your chi and dampening your useful lust.

Gregor Samsa

Nosnon wrote: »

Are ya still allowed to ride?

According to the article, yes.

Brian?

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

*checks calendar*

Nope, definitely not April 1st.


https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/sep/09/whats-causing-women-to-join-the-nofap-movement

So...







What do you make of Kristel's outlook on things in relation to this? She makes some ok points?

There is zero basis to believe that refraining from masturbation is beneficial. But if it helps people, let them off.

I’d say there’s a mix of things helping them. Primarily exercising control over their own bodies, that feeling of control will extend into all areas of life.

The men’s side of the NoFap movement is a bit darker though. It comes with a healthy slice of misogyny, similar to incels. They don’t see women as equal sexual partners, they see them as prizes.

I think there are some very good points in the article about what porn is teaching young people about sex. It must be tough growing up and sexually maturing with access to porn in your pocket. It sets unrealistic standards for men and women and objectifies both as well.

Brian?

suicide_circus wrote: »

its alright on the odd occasion but if youre a chronic self abuser its not great. it will damage your sex life - if youre in a relationship you should be chasing your missus up the stairs pretty frequently, not rubbing a lazy one out on the jacks and if youre single and would like sex with an actual person you need to stop wasting your chi and dampening your useful lust.

Actually if you’re a single man you should probably masturbate daily to be ready IMO. If masturbating daily eliminates your “useful lust” you have much bigger problems.

suicide_circus

Brian? wrote: »

Actually if you’re a single man you should probably masturbate daily to be ready IMO. If masturbating daily eliminates your “useful lust” you have much bigger problems.

**** away so

Outlaw Pete

Brian? wrote: »

It sets unrealistic standards for men and women and objectifies both as well.

The beauty and fashion industries set unrealistic standards for men and women.

Porn, not so much.

Brian?

suicide_circus wrote: »

**** away so

I’m not single. But thanks anyway.

suicide_circus

Brian? wrote: »

I’m not single. But thanks anyway.

nor am i, a **** shared is worth two in the bush as they say

Brian?

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

The beauty and fashion industries set unrealistic standards for men and women.

Porn, not so much.

I didn’t say unrealistic beauty standards. I meant behaviour and physical attributes.

The men all have massive penises and can ride for hours. The women usually have fake breasts, not a blade of hair and will do anything to please a man.

I can’t imagine that’s healthy for developing teenagers to see.

Brian?

suicide_circus wrote: »

nor am i, a **** shared is worth two in the bush as they aay

Are you coming on to me?

everlast75

Sounds ambitious.

I don't think they can pull it off...

Nosnon

Nosnon wrote: »

Are ya still allowed to ride?

Seemingly yes which has always confused me.

They tell us lack of masturbation increases testosterone. Not sure that is even true but let's for the moment pretend it is.

Firstly it seems something of an assumption that that is even a good thing -why would we assume the average person on the street requires an increase in the first place?

But why is this not equally true of sex? Why does orgasm through masturbation affect testosterone significantly different than orgasm attained through sex?

NoFap have traditionally trotted out messages that sound ominous or informative - but usually without any substance. Like "porn changes your brain".

Brian? wrote: »

I’m not single. But thanks anyway.

Does that matter really? Single people have sex. People in relationships masturbate. Relationship status should not preclude or promote either really.

I am certainly not single either - but for me personally a healthy sexual relationship is one that is made up of both sex and masturbation. I do not do the latter often. I certainly do it however.

I have met people who suggest that there must be something wrong if someone in a relationship masturbates - but I genuinely can not see why they think that way.

Brian? wrote: »

I didn’t say unrealistic beauty standards. I meant behaviour and physical attributes.

I have never been entirely convinced by this appraisal of porn. Our teens grow up on Hollywood and computer games and soap operas too. I do not see most of them getting an unrealistic view of how to act there either.

I think most people - there are always exceptions of course - can tell the difference between reality and the caricature of reality our various entertainment media offers us. I am not seeing anything to suggest porn is an exception here.

As for men "riding for hours" I wonder if the fact most men _dont_ do that actually means most men _cant_ do so. I suspect the opposite myself - that most men can. But it's only my personal suspicion I have not researched it. I know however that I personally last as long as I personally choose to last. Whether that be 5 minutes or 5 hours.

Brian?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Seemingly yes which has always confused me.

They tell us lack of masturbation increases testosterone. Not sure that is even true but let's for the moment pretend it is.

Firstly it seems something of an assumption that that is even a good thing -why would we assume the average person on the street requires an increase in the first place?

But why is this not equally true of sex? Why does orgasm through masturbation affect testosterone significantly different than orgasm attained through sex?

NoFap have traditionally trotted out messages that sound ominous or informative - but usually without any substance. Like "porn changes your brain".



Does that matter really? Single people have sex. People in relationships masturbate. Relationship status should not preclude or promote either really.

I am certainly not single either - but for me personally a healthy sexual relationship is one that is made up of both sex and masturbation. I do not do the latter often. I certainly do it however.

I have met people who suggest that there must be something wrong if someone in a relationship masturbates - but I genuinely can not see why they think that way.

That was my original point. I completely agree.

I have never been entirely convinced by this appraisal of porn. Our teens grow up on Hollywood and computer games and soap operas too. I do not see most of them getting an unrealistic view of how to act there either.

I think most people - there are always exceptions of course - can tell the difference between reality and the caricature of reality our various entertainment media offers us. I am not seeing anything to suggest porn is an exception here.

The reason I think porn is so impactful is because sex is seen as a taboo subject. We hide it from kids, usually for the right reasons, and create a taboo around it which increases the curiosity. Sex education then consists of the mechanics of sex and how to prevent pregnancy. No one sits you down and explains how to have pleasurable and healthy sexual interactions.

Porn then displays mostly unrealistic sexual interactions which will not happen in reality. When you have no frame of reference, how can you expect immature minds to differentiate?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not taking a moral anti porn stance. I don’t think morals come into it. I just think we need to a better job as a society of demystifying sex and teaching kids and teenagers that’s it’s a natural and enjoyable activity that we should all learn how to enjoy.

As for men "riding for hours" I wonder if the fact most men _dont_ do that actually means most men _cant_ do so. I suspect the opposite myself - that most men can. But it's only my personal suspicion I have not researched it. I know however that I personally last as long as I personally choose to last. Whether that be 5 minutes or 5 hours.

Fair play to you, but I don’t believe that’s true. I read a study before that most men can only have sex for less that minutes before ejaculating. Imagine watching a lot of porn and then you feeling ashamed because you only last for 5 minutes? This is especially true of teenagers on their first few experiences.

One last thought, porn like any business is about supply and demand. Porn is getting more extreme because that’s what people want. Maybe that’s part of the problem as well.

Kermit.de.frog

Deleted User wrote: »

I personally last as long as I personally choose to last. Whether that be 5 minutes or 5 hours.

suicide_circus

i think the argument is that the proper use of testosterone is ploughing your wife and conquering the world rather than sweating hunched over shaking hands with the milkman

is_that_so

If it makes people feel they've found fellow travellers on the path of life why not? Not sure it merits a newspaper piece but it's pure clickbait!

gozunda

Oh look it's another twitterati with yet a another bull**** campaign.

Not like it hasn't it hasn't been pushed by nutters before

Corn Flakes were part of a anti-masturbation Crusade nearly a century ago amongst some other deranged ideas pushed by eejits

:rolleyes:

http://mentalfloss.com/article/32042/corn-flakes-were-invented-part-anti-masturbation-crusade

Next time your eating your honey nut cornflakes think of that or dont as the case may be ...

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

The men all have massive penises and can ride for hours.

You rang?

gozunda wrote: »

Next time your eating you honey nut cornflakes think of that or dont as the case may be ...

Nobody's getting near my honey nuts before they buy me flowers and a nice sit down meal. I'm classy.

Kermit.de.frog

Wibbs wrote: »

Nobody's getting near my honey nuts before they buy me flowers and a nice sit down meal. I'm classy.

ewwww

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

The reason I think porn is so impactful is because sex is seen as a taboo subject. We hide it from kids, usually for the right reasons, and create a taboo around it which increases the curiosity.

I agree to a point but in fact many other issues our entertainment media deal with are taboo subjects too. Violence - racism - power - infidelity - crime - manipulation - abuse and much more.

But I absolutely agree with the core of what you say here - I just do not think porn can be blamed for it. We risk blaming porn for our deficiencies elsewhere. If porn is causing harm for the reasons you describe then I think we need to blame those reasons for empowering that harm - rather than blaming porn for having that power. For me it is like how some people blame alcohol for the anti social behaviour of many teens. Missing entirely that it is our stifling society with no useful mental and physical outlets for children that lead them to turn to alcohol. Many people mistake the symptom for the disease in our world alas.

I for one think there are few good reasons to hide sex from our children. The word "innocence" gets thrown around a lot when the question comes up. But the line between maintaining the innocence of children - and maintaining the ignorance of children - should be a lot clearer however.

My kids for example have known the basics of sex since they were 5 and it has been an ongoing - developing - iterative conversation ever since. Whereas many other parents I have experienced get some "sign" like a porn mag or a tampon around the age of 11-13 and suddenly think it is time to have "the talk". Singular.

I am all for a much more comprehensive and much earlier approach to sex eduction in our schools and our homes. I do not think a working knowledge of sex and sexuality from a very early age does anything even remotely harmful to the innocence of children that we rightly value so much.

Brian? wrote: »

Porn then displays mostly unrealistic sexual interactions which will not happen in reality.

Always wondered about that one myself There is a vast array of porn catering to all kinds of taste. But the majority of porn is some combination of oral sex - anal sex - and penetrative sex - in a variety of positions. And I have not seen too much unrealistic about any of that vast quantity of porn. I have certainly done most of the things I have seen in porn in most of the ways I have seen it done!

For me my criticism of porn therefore is not that it shows an unrealistic representation of sex - but a limited one. It is not that the things happening in porn do not happen in real life - they do - but that so much more happens in real life than in porn.

But again I am not convinced that this is as bad as some let on. Soap operas - Hollywood - computer games also show an unrealistic set of interactions that do not happen in reality too. Entertainment is not _meant_ to be a realistic representation of reality. It is meant to be an exaggerated caricature of it. Otherwise why bother with it at all? How much porn would we watch if it was realistic? John and Mary falling in the door drunk with a kebab of a friday night and having a 5 minute fumble on the couch after - or sometimes before - eating it?

But as you say if our youth do not have a "frame of reference" to work with this can not be a good thing. But that is absolutely _not_ the failure of pornography at all. But one "frame of reference" they do have is that every other form of entertainment does not map onto reality. I have some faith in the average teen that they will not assume that this one form does. But if and when they do - porn would be the absolute last thing I would blame for that.

Brian? wrote: »

Fair play to you, but I don’t believe that’s true. I read a study before that most men can only have sex for less that minutes before ejaculating.

I read a study some time ago that showed that most men _do_ only have sex for a few minutes before ejaculating. Sure. It was a self reported study of men asking them how long they generally last - and women asking how long their men generally last.

But again I would make the distinction I made in the last post between a study showing what men _actually do_ and one on what men actually _can_ do if they were bothered to try. So the study I read does not really address that.

I have not yet read a study that does so as I said - it is just my personal suspicion and not something I can support or defend at this time. I just know the effort required _for me_ to go from the former to the latter was remarkably small. Mostly - I just had to want it. After that the changes required were minimal and easily attained.

Brian? wrote: »

One last thought, porn like any business is about supply and demand. Porn is getting more extreme because that’s what people want. Maybe that’s part of the problem as well.

100% agree there. Many people get that wrong. They point to the extremes in porn leading viewers to want those extremes. I always suspected that the opposite is true - that it is the consumer leading the product. Or - perhaps more realistically - a symbiotic combination of the two.

But the same is true of most media. If you compare violence in Action films from 40 years ago to films today for example - the product has also become more extreme. Compare some old Bruce Lee films to John Wick to name but one of many possible comparisons.

gozunda

Wibbs wrote: »

You rang?

Nobody's getting near my honey nuts before they buy me flowers and a nice sit down meal. I'm classy.

My apologies that should have read 'beating' ...

Ecce No Homo

My penile is warm and wet as I spin spin spin all morning long this flaccid piece of thick wet trunk

suicide_circus

Ecce No Homo wrote: »

My penile is warm and wet as I spin spin spin all morning long this flaccid piece of thick wet trunk

Haiku?

One eyed Jack

Ecce No Homo wrote: »

My penile is warm and wet as I spin spin spin all morning long this flaccid piece of thick wet trunk

Y’alright there horse?

Rod Laver

I read your user name as Rod Lover which would have been more apt in a way

Rod Laver wrote: »

I go on streaks and then occasionally I give in and have a ****. Currently on a 6 day streak.

Out of interest - what would your frequency have been before you tried to abstain in any way?

Also curious - when you "give in" as you put it how does this make you feel after the fact? The choice of the phrase "give in" is suggestive of failure or guilt for example.

Rod Laver wrote: »

Nonetheless, I'm playing hard mode, no sex or masturbation of any kind. My wife is 5 months pregnant, haven't had sex with her since she conceived. With pregnancy sickness etc it hasn't been too hard to persuade her not to have sex, might be more difficult when she's not pregnant.

Not sure if that is healthy at all physically or emotionally but I am no doctor. Certainly the opposite was true with my partners - that sex and sexual expression was highly valuable on many levels throughout pregnancy. Everything from the physical and emotional connections to the doses of oxytocin were very useful in keeping spirits and morale and communication and connection high in our relationship.

I have heard NoFap peddle some seriously dodgy science - or vague ominous claims - but even the most extreme of them I have encountered so far did not tend to recommend abstinence from sex as a whole. Mostly their issue was with masturbation - specifically where porn is used. In fact quite often I got left with the vague feeling that NoFap actually just hated porn and was using abstinence from masturbation as a cover for that agenda.

everlast75

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Y’alright there horse?

another apt username for this thread..

4 or 5 is not a lot by any means - unless you were investing hours at a time into each of those 4 or 5. So seeing a benefit to dropping to once every 10 days or whatever is surprising. Usually the people I have talked to who report a benefit of NoFap are people who reported quite excessive levels before. So that they see a benefit is not a surprise.

It suggests something else is in play. That could be anything though from an undiagnosed hormonal or depression issue that is exacerbated by the physiology of orgasm - to merely a placebo effect caused by something such as what "BRIAN?" pointed out so well in the first page of the thread when he said "Primarily exercising control over their own bodies, that feeling of control will extend into all areas of life.".

Like alcohol - if someone reports benefits from abstinence when they were having a bottle of wine day you would not be surprised. If they were only having one bottle spread over 3 or 4 glasses in a week however - one would suspect something else was going on like an underlying allergy or something else.

But without a full medical workup - it is all guess work and navel gazing from me at this point But it just doesn't sound right on the face of it.

Reviews and Books Galore

Brian? wrote: »

Actually if you’re a single man you should probably masturbate daily to be ready IMO. If masturbating daily eliminates your “useful lust” you have much bigger problems.

I find that I am hornier if I masturbate. It resets the system and I masturbate less if I masturabte less.

Northern Monkey

Cornflakes is the only cure for it

Reviews and Books Galore

Brian? wrote: »

I didn’t say unrealistic beauty standards. I meant behaviour and physical attributes.

The men all have massive penises and can ride for hours. The women usually have fake breasts, not a blade of hair and will do anything to please a man.

I can’t imagine that’s healthy for developing teenagers to see.

To please themselves imo. If you compare the women in porn to erotica/fanfiction, then they are way more of an active participant.



Not saying it's perfect, but it is way more active and an equal partner.

stratowide

Dafuq is a fap..Did I wander into boards.usa by mistake..?

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

Deleted User wrote: »

it is all guess work and navel gazing from me at this point

I'm not sure how useful your "one size fits all" attempt at diagnosis is. If he feels that fapping to porn 4 or five times a week has a somewhat detrimental effect on his psychological well-being, then good for him if he decides to exercise some restraint in this area. It doesn't sound like he requires a second opinion. Sometimes you have to listen to what your own body and mind is telling you.

Anus Von Skidmark

Rod Laver wrote: »

Currently on a 6 day streak. I can definitely notice the benefit when I hit days 7 to 10. Increased energy, better focus, more at ease in the world.

Christ, if I don't fire the old purple-headed yoghurt slinger at least every second day, I'd get nothing done at all. I'd be doing nothing but thinking about fannies and boobies and walking around with a mickey like an iron bar.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

I'm not sure how useful your "one size fits all" attempt at diagnosis is. If he feels that fapping to porn 4 or five times a week has a somewhat detrimental effect on his psychological well-being, then good for him

But I very clearly said I am not - and have not the data to be - making any diagnosis at all. So I am not sure to which diagnosis you refer here.

Good for him indeed. All I am saying is that if moving from a relatively small quantity of masturbation to a relatively smaller quantity of it has had that much of an effect - then that is interesting in itself and suggests there is more at work here than merely masturbation or porn.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

Sometimes you have to listen to what your own body and mind is telling you.

My point exactly. And if a relatively tiny change has massive effects then perhaps your body is indeed telling you something interesting.

For example if someone drinking 2 glasses of wine a week notices huge improvements in their general feeling of well being by stopping - then perhaps they have an undiagnosed allergy to wine. Because _generally_ two glasses of wine do not have such a profound effect on individuals.

Similarly if masturbating a mere 4 or 5 times is causing a noticeable and significant dip in energy motivation mood or other factors - I would suspect there _may_ be more going on there than we think that is worthy of exploration.

One of the issues with the NoFap movement I find however is that testimonials of such outliers are being used to suggest that everyone is likely to benefit from the same abstinence. And I see no actual evidence outside cherry picked anecdote to recommend that at all.

wiggle16

Rod Laver wrote: »

I've been doing Nofap for last couple of months, "trying" being the key word. I go on streaks and then occasionally I give in and have a ****. Currently on a 6 day streak. I can definitely notice the benefit when I hit days 7 to 10. Increased energy, better focus, more at ease in the world.

Oh, it's you again.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

My point exactly. And if a relatively tiny change has massive effects then perhaps your body is indeed telling you something interesting.

Well, watching porn five days out of seven is plenty to my mind (not judging though), and he obviously has a partner in his life that he values and is soon to have a family, so cutting that back by even half, to only watching porn once or twice a week, I can see how that would actually be rather significant, and not a "tiny" difference as you suggest. I think one of the issues with compulsive or semi-compulsive porn use is that you essentially become enslaved to a generic, commercial product, and if that makes someone a little unhappy, I think that it may be good for them to try and step away from it. I would tend to see the changes he has made as highly significant.

Just my opinion of course. Sorry if I came off combative before.

sentient_6

The subreddit for this is an interesting read. It would appear to me to be a way of introducing the perception of discipline and clarity to people's otherwise hollow lives.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

Well, watching porn five days out of seven is plenty to my mind (not judging though)

Not sure we can say that. If you watch porn once a month that might not sound a lot - but what if that once you are watching it for 5 hours?

You could be watching it 10 times a week however - but 5 minutes each time.

So to my mind we would need to know not just how many times but for how long someone is consuming porn before we could make any kind of evaluation.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

obviously has a partner in his life

Not sure that is relvant either. I have two partners in my life. And a family. I still find occasional time for masturbation and occasionally with porn. Actually we watch porn together too at times which I recommend often to at least trying.

If porn has an effect - I am not convinced it does but if - then I am even less convinced that relationship status will change that effect one way or another.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

Just my opinion of course. Sorry if I came off combative before.

It's the nature of this forum I would not say either of us have been coming off badly at all

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure we can say that. If you watch porn once a month that might not sound a lot - but what if that once you are watching it for 5 hours?

Length of session time is part of it, but I tend to think that frequency in terms of days is more significant. One five hour session a week requires some level of discipline the other six days of the week. Five short sessions a week requires much less discipline relatively.

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure that is relevant either. I have two partners in my life. And a family.

As I say, this is not a "one size fits all" dilemma. What works for you may very well not work for me. Reading between the lines it seems like he is unhappy about his porn consumption and there is nothing wrong with that. There will be plenty of men that feel a little uneasy with a compulsive porn habit while they are in a loving relationship, with children of their own. For many it entails keeping secrets from those they are most intimate with. They might also find that there is something impersonal about it, that it has a deteriorating effect on their imagination, or that consumption equates with lack of willpower.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

One five hour session a week requires some level of discipline the other six days of the week. Five short sessions a week requires much less discipline relatively.

Discipline only required if there is temptation. Perhaps someone only _wants_ one 5 hour session a week. If so - then no discipline is required at all. In fact the opposite could be true. Perhaps the person with 1 5 hour session actually wants it to be less - but to lack of discipline gets to 5.

The "one size fits all" evaluations go both ways therefore. You could be equally guilty of it here.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

For many it entails keeping secrets from those they are most intimate with.

That is not a problem of porn however. Nothing to do with masturbation or porn at all I would say. If you keep secrets from your partner(s) - and this causes you issues - then that's the problem.

Which kinda plays into what I said in earlier posts that if changing from a relatively small consumption to a relatively smaller one is having _that much_ of an effect - there may be something else in play. And you have give here a pretty damn good example of one possibility of what that something can sometimes be.

As I said in an earlier post on the thread - there is a common tendency to mistake the symptom for the disease.

Wibbs

Social Medium wrote: »

Decided to try semen retention as an experiment to see what affect it has on me.

Apiarist

Social Medium wrote: »

planning to go for the rest of the year without ejaculating

You may have got carried along a bit too far? "no fap" does not mean "no sex whatsoever".

Wibbs

victor8600 wrote: »

You may have got carried along a bit too far? "no fap" does not mean "no sex whatsoever".

I suspect V, that for the majority of "no fap" adherents, sex with another human being is not really in play.