Contacting landlord re 3rd party dispute

1874

Im in the process of starting to contact a landlord of a neighbouring property with problem tenants,


There have been a few problems, which should not have occurred at all, or have been impossible to deal with except the tenants refused to deal with things by talking, there were also some more serious problems from one tenant.


Ive located the landlords address details via the RTB, but not sure how to proceed to contact them, from how things have gone ( based on the details and on something one tenant said about the landlord), Im thinking Solicitors letter and meet at solicitors office, Gardai mentioned a mediation process for anti social behaviour so might look into where they are suggesting that meetings can occur and check with the Citizens advice bureau. There has been a threat ( I wont elaborate, other than to say the Gardai have been contacted) hence my intent in engaging a solicitor to have a potential neutral location to even meet.


Im thinking solicitor both from the point of view of proof of my efforts to the RTB if there is no reply, or a negative reply but also to have a professional opinion.

I want to anticipate replies and try head off knee jerk negative responses and just deal with the issues, to do this I feel to appear as serious as I am, I have to send a solicitors letter, as thats all some people take seriously.


If the issues cant be dealt with by discussion with the landlord or there is no reply, Im a bit reluctant to bother with mediation through the RTB and plan then to just go straight to Adjudication.


I dont want to seem to come across too heavy handed to the landlord, but I think a formal letter stating the problems and the outcome of uncooperativeness or non response, and that any threats will lead immediately to me reporting that to the Gardai and applying for an adjudication process, which could come out worse for them.


For the record, I was formerly a landlord and I would have stepped in had a tenant done what these people have done, for my own protection from the RTB alone, but also from any liability, and because I wouldnt subject anyone to it and turn a blind eye. Previously as a landlord, I fended off potential complaints to the RTB and I took tenants to the RTB, I always took and dealt with issues seriously, even when I knew they were frivolous, the outcome was always in my favour as I not only did everything correctly and/or had already tried to resolve problems, I was also in the right, but I always did it on my own then.



So basically, looking for a solicitor,
Any recommended solicitors that deal with this? ie RTB stuff.
I attended one Solicitor adhoc and they basically told me they didnt do (sic) "PRTB stuff", should I just start ringing around or can anyone recommend someone/a business in Dublin?

whomitconcerns

You can't get recommendations for solicitors here. It's not prtb stuff.. So I don't understand why a lawyer would tell you that?

1874

whomitconcerns wrote: »

You can't get recommendations for solicitors here. It's not prtb stuff.. So I don't understand why a lawyer would tell you that?

I cant get a recommendation for a solicitor? to write a letter?
again, for the record, I was at an RTB hearing (PRTB as it was then) when a tenant turned up with a solicitor in tow

whomitconcerns

Nope you can't, it's against the rules on here..

But I don't understand why you would have any connection to the rtb. That's between the landlord and the tenant. Your recourse is with landlord or gardai I would have thought?

GGTrek

OP please bear in mind that the landlord might not know at all about the ASB. I would first contact him/her informally and provide some evidence.

For example a report to Garda about the ASB or that you are willing to provide a statement about the events (how to write it I suggest to discuss it with a solicitor).

If you are based in Dublin I can provide by PM a couple of contacts of solicitors with RTB experience.

In any case ASB cases are difficult and lengthy: it took me almost 18 months to kick out a smart...e anti social tenant that was harassing his neighbours. People behave usually like chickens when they are not on the Internet and the LL receives the complaints but no one is then willing to provide evidence for RTB case.

whomitconcerns

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Nope you can't, it's against the rules on here..

But I don't understand why you would have any connection to the rtb. That's between the landlord and the tenant. Your recourse is with landlord or gardai I would have thought?

You can infact go through the RTB in relation to a 3rd party so this would be the first step for the op.

antix80

First step is to calmly let the landlord know what is going on and get his commitment to do something about it.
Keep a lig of your issues.
Chances are landlord's hands are tied. But hopefully he'll want to protect his investment and take steps to resolve the issue.
Nothing stopping you reporting the tenants to the council, court, td, gardai etc depending on the issue.

Fol20

Just out of interest how did you get the ll details especially their address from the RTB. I would have thought that would be in breach of GDPR

1874

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Nope you can't, it's against the rules on here..

But I don't understand why you would have any connection to the rtb. That's between the landlord and the tenant. Your recourse is with landlord or gardai I would have thought?

I would say no, I think you are Wrong! I thought it was well known what the RTB is for/does, among other things, it allows allows tenants and landlords to deal with each other where there are unresolved problems and breaches, but also 3rd partys are allowed make complaints against tenants and landlords, I approached the tenant about ongoing problems and got a very negative response.
What youre suggesting would say if a tenant was being anti social, I as an immediate neighbour would have no recourse.

GGTrek wrote: »

OP please bear in mind that the landlord might not know at all about the ASB. I would first contact him/her informally and provide some evidence.

For example a report to Garda about the ASB or that you are willing to provide a statement about the events (how to write it I suggest to discuss it with a solicitor).
If you are based in Dublin I can provide by PM a couple of contacts of solicitors with RTB experience.
In any case ASB cases are difficult and lengthy: it took me almost 18 months to kick out a smart...e anti social tenant that was harassing his neighbours. People behave usually like chickens when they are not on the Internet and the LL receives the complaints but no one is then willing to provide evidence for RTB case.

Its possible the landlord doesnt know, I believe its likely they do for a reason I dont think is wise to disclose right now, even if they dont know about ASB, the RTA 2004 (and by extension the RTB) state I have to approach the tenant then landlord, then the RTB. I am in the Step of contacting the Landlord, PMs of Solicitors with experience of this in Dublin would be helpful as Im based in Dublin, I have no choice but to pursue this as the tenant in question lives next door to me and is now ramping up the anti social behaviour and hostility, I'm uncertain if they will stop, continue or escalate. I know what you mean about chickens, a few other people on the road mentioned to me about them, but dont want to get directly involved even though they only are aware of one aspect of what is going on.

Fol20 wrote: »

Just out of interest how did you get the ll details especially their address from the RTB. I would have thought that would be in breach of GDPR

Well the RTB did state that it would be a breach of GDPR to me on 2 separate calls, I followed that up with a local Counciller as I belive the RTB were washing their hands of my enquiry. I was then told (not by the RTB) that its possible to make a 3rd party application for landlord details. The RTB cant insist I try resolve the problem myself with the landlord if I cant contact them, so you can put in a 3rd party request, by post, not over the phone or by email, the RTB just didnt highlight it to me even though I asked for details.


IMO, I think the RTB is just to free up space in the courts/and a stick to beat genuine good landlords with (bad tenants and bad landlords can and likely will play and game the system), Id nearly rather present a case myself in Court or get a solicitor to do it then have someone make arbitrary judgements with an uncertain qualification/background. edit, I think if utilised correctly, the RTB would be/should be a useful service, as a former landlord, my view of them is coloured, but at least there is a process for people (tenants/landlords/3rd partys) to deal with problems, the issue I have with them is they seem biased in favour of tenants even from the point of view as a 3rd party who clearly stated to them some of the problems.

Ray Palmer

I really don't get why you are making this all so complicated.
You spoke to the tenant now write a letter to the landlord and send it to the PRTB to pass on. If there is no action you bring a case against the LL to the PRTB.
Anti social behaviour is one of the only ways to get somebody evicted that doesn't require massive notice.
There absolutely no need for a solicitor.
Had a tenant I want to be rid of and was delighted when a neighbour complained and the tenant was gone within a month and all legal.

Claw Hammer

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Nope you can't, it's against the rules on here..

But I don't understand why you would have any connection to the rtb. That's between the landlord and the tenant. Your recourse is with landlord or gardai I would have thought?

The RTB deals or at least has jurisdiction to deal with disputes from 3rd parties who are affected by alleged anti social behaviour on the part of teats whose tenancy is regulated by the RTB.

RebeccaM90

1874 wrote: »

Im in the process of starting to contact a landlord of a neighbouring property with problem tenants,


There have been a few problems, which should not have occurred at all, or have been impossible to deal with except the tenants refused to deal with things by talking, there were also some more serious problems from one tenant.


Ive located the landlords address details via the RTB, but not sure how to proceed to contact them, from how things have gone ( based on the details and on something one tenant said about the landlord), Im thinking Solicitors letter and meet at solicitors office, Gardai mentioned a mediation process for anti social behaviour so might look into where they are suggesting that meetings can occur and check with the Citizens advice bureau. There has been a threat ( I wont elaborate, other than to say the Gardai have been contacted) hence my intent in engaging a solicitor to have a potential neutral location to even meet.


Im thinking solicitor both from the point of view of proof of my efforts to the RTB if there is no reply, or a negative reply but also to have a professional opinion.

I want to anticipate replies and try head off knee jerk negative responses and just deal with the issues, to do this I feel to appear as serious as I am, I have to send a solicitors letter, as thats all some people take seriously.


If the issues cant be dealt with by discussion with the landlord or there is no reply, Im a bit reluctant to bother with mediation through the RTB and plan then to just go straight to Adjudication.


I dont want to seem to come across too heavy handed to the landlord, but I think a formal letter stating the problems and the outcome of uncooperativeness or non response, and that any threats will lead immediately to me reporting that to the Gardai and applying for an adjudication process, which could come out worse for them.


For the record, I was formerly a landlord and I would have stepped in had a tenant done what these people have done, for my own protection from the RTB alone, but also from any liability, and because I wouldnt subject anyone to it and turn a blind eye. Previously as a landlord, I fended off potential complaints to the RTB and I took tenants to the RTB, I always took and dealt with issues seriously, even when I knew they were frivolous, the outcome was always in my favour as I not only did everything correctly and/or had already tried to resolve problems, I was also in the right, but I always did it on my own then.



So basically, looking for a solicitor,
Any recommended solicitors that deal with this? ie RTB stuff.
I attended one Solicitor adhoc and they basically told me they didnt do (sic) "PRTB stuff", should I just start ringing around or can anyone recommend someone/a business in Dublin?

Did you get sorted with this? I am in the same boat at the moment, the RTB have provided me with LL details, I've written to the LL and since then the tenant's behaviour has worsened to the point that I feel frightened and very intimidated. We've considered selling our home, it's a first time buyers worst nightmare!! My case is for adjudication on 2 October next. I have submitted everything I can and have even been to the Gardaí in respect of this issue on numerous occasions. I'm not expecting much from adjudication as I've been told the adjudicators normally favour the tenant although in my situation the tenant has broken numerous laws in black and white so fingers crossed. If adjudication proves to be unsuccessful then I think I will seek legal advice. We have a constitutional right to the peace and enjoyment of our home and the tenant is breaching that right.

Evening star

Hi, I am so glad I found this board. I am currently in same position, more or less and as a home owner ajoined to tennants, I as a third party have logged to prtb. Again, no solicitor would be bothered.
Landlord of property ignored me.
How did you get on afterward with the prtb?
Thank you

JimmyVik

A colleague of mine has an ongoing issue like this since November.
Fingal leased his apartment for 10 years about 3 years ago. New tenants that fingal county council put in are terrorizing the whole development.
Fingal co co wont do anything. Colleague has no power to do anything either.
Gaurds are useless.
In short, nothing he can do, but he would happy to if he could.
Neighbours got his address and phone number of the MC. Now they are calling out to his house complaining and phoning him all the time.
Everyone, including the MC threatening to sue him.
They dont understand he has no power at all over this, but he is the target of their frustration.
How did we get here?

RebeccaM90

Evening star wrote: »

Hi, I am so glad I found this board. I am currently in same position, more or less and as a home owner ajoined to tennants, I as a third party have logged to prtb. Again, no solicitor would be bothered.
Landlord of property ignored me.
How did you get on afterward with the prtb?
Thank you

I bought my house back in 2018 and ever since then we have had problems. I didn't know who the landlord was so I downloaded the land folio for the property and got their names from that. (RTB took 3 months to respond to my information request) Whilst waiting for the RTB to respond, I had found the landlord on Facebook and messaged him. He was extremely sympathetic and advised me he would write warning letters to the tenant. Sometime passed and nothing changed, the same antisocial behaviour ensued. So at this stage I was pretty annoyed I wrote a letter quoting relevant legislation and outlined the breach of the landlord's and tenant's obligations (I work in law and studies it so could draft something along these lines). This letter was sent via registered post (evidence). I then started documenting the behaviour with photographs etc. I lodged a formal complaint with the RTB and throughout I kept the landlord updated (they want the tenant out to sell the house). The adjudication was back in October and it was ruled in my favour with the landlord liable to pay damages for stress and inconvenience caused. Nonetheless the behaviour has still persisted. The landlord has since appealed this decision on the basis that he believes the tenant should be liable. I received notification of an appeal in January and heard nothing since. In evidence I stated "As a home owner you have a Constitutional right to the peace and enjoyment of your property and this tenant is interfering with this right".

If nothing changes with your situation you need to write to the landlord and document everything. It's a long process. Hope this helps in someway

JimmyVik

RebeccaM90 wrote: »

I bought my house back in 2018 and ever since then we have had problems. I didn't know who the landlord was so I downloaded the land folio for the property and got their names from that. (RTB took 3 months to respond to my information request) Whilst waiting for the RTB to respond, I had found the landlord on Facebook and messaged him. He was extremely sympathetic and advised me he would write warning letters to the tenant. Sometime passed and nothing changed, the same antisocial behaviour ensued. So at this stage I was pretty annoyed I wrote a letter quoting relevant legislation and outlined the breach of the landlord's and tenant's obligations (I work in law and studies it so could draft something along these lines). This letter was sent via registered post (evidence). I then started documenting the behaviour with photographs etc. I lodged a formal complaint with the RTB and throughout I kept the landlord updated (they want the tenant out to sell the house). The adjudication was back in October and it was ruled in my favour with the landlord liable to pay damages for stress and inconvenience caused. Nonetheless the behaviour has still persisted. The landlord has since appealed this decision on the basis that he believes the tenant should be liable. I received notification of an appeal in January and heard nothing since. In evidence I stated "As a home owner you have a Constitutional right to the peace and enjoyment of your property and this tenant is interfering with this right".

If nothing changes with your situation you need to write to the landlord and document everything. It's a long process. Hope this helps in someway

RTB are keeping the tenants there, not the landlord. He probably wants them gone as much, if not more than you do.

And then the RTB find against the landlord.
You couldnt make it up. The state of the rental market in Ireland.

RebeccaM90

JimmyVik wrote: »

RTB are keeping the tenants there, not the landlord. He probably wants them gone as much, if not more than you do.

And then the RTB find against the landlord.
You couldnt make it up. The state of the rental market in Ireland.

Exactly! Landlord wants them gone to sell the property as he would fetch a decent price for it considering how the market currently is but RTB find against landlord for non enforcement of tenant obligations under the Residential tenancies Act. It's an absolute joke.

Claw Hammer

RebeccaM90 wrote: »

Exactly! Landlord wants them gone to sell the property as he would fetch a decent price for it considering how the market currently is but RTB find against landlord for non enforcement of tenant obligations under the Land and Conveyancing Act. It's an absolute joke.

What obligations under the Land and Conveyancing Act?

RebeccaM90

Claw Hammer wrote: »

What obligations under the Land and Conveyancing Act?

The relevant Act is Residential Tenancies Act 2004 namely Section 16:

"16.—In addition to the obligations arising by or under any other enactment, a tenant of a dwelling shall—

(h) not behave within the dwelling, or in the vicinity of it, in a way that is anti-social or allow other occupiers of, or visitors to, the dwelling to behave within it, or in the vicinity of it, in such a way..."

1874

RebeccaM90 wrote: »

I bought my house back in 2018 and ever since then we have had problems. I didn't know who the landlord was so I downloaded the land folio for the property and got their names from that. (RTB took 3 months to respond to my information request) Whilst waiting for the RTB to respond, I had found the landlord on Facebook and messaged him. He was extremely sympathetic and advised me he would write warning letters to the tenant. Sometime passed and nothing changed, the same antisocial behaviour ensued. So at this stage I was pretty annoyed I wrote a letter quoting relevant legislation and outlined the breach of the landlord's and tenant's obligations (I work in law and studies it so could draft something along these lines). This letter was sent via registered post (evidence). I then started documenting the behaviour with photographs etc. I lodged a formal complaint with the RTB and throughout I kept the landlord updated (they want the tenant out to sell the house). The adjudication was back in October and it was ruled in my favour with the landlord liable to pay damages for stress and inconvenience caused. Nonetheless the behaviour has still persisted. The landlord has since appealed this decision on the basis that he believes the tenant should be liable. I received notification of an appeal in January and heard nothing since. In evidence I stated "As a home owner you have a Constitutional right to the peace and enjoyment of your property and this tenant is interfering with this right".

If nothing changes with your situation you need to write to the landlord and document everything. It's a long process. Hope this helps in someway

Not sure why this would be the case, and surely would only be enforceable in Court, whether you or the RTB pursued this part, maybe it was the RTB to frustrate any effort to get the tenant out by turning the landlord against you, if I was present in an adjuducation, so long as there was a definite end to the tenancy, I would not have bothered with it or argued against it where a landlord was cooperating.
This has imo only slowed things down,
regarding my own situation, things are not where I would like them to be but they have improved, I dont see why what amounts to my quality of life should be undermined by a tenant (in my case, or anyone in any situation).


Basically the RTB were bordering on next to useless, toothless or not even interested. They seemed to have an overall plan that they will order evictions as a last resort and only in the absolute worst cases, even after an agreement was reached there the tenants were still difficult.
While the individual adjudicator did question statements made by the other side in my case, at the end of it all there was very much an attitude of I have to look at things from their side, complete bollock$

It is absolutely ridiculous that situations like this can exist, where one family/group can do as they please and not only get away with it, they know it and continue to frustrate efforts to fix problems and just game the system.
My advice is keep records, a written record, audio/visual, Gardai wont get involved or at least very unwilling to do so unless it is after the fact of something criminal, even then you will be asking for a lot. 1 imo they know their hands are tied, and they know scum know this and 2 they are dealing with worse and its low on their radar, even if it is ruining your life.
imo persist, keep records, keep the landlord on side ( I personally would NOT look for money or damages off them if they are cooperative and in contact).

RebeccaM90

1874 wrote: »

Not sure why this would be the case, and surely would only be enforceable in Court, whether you or the RTB pursued this part, maybe it was the RTB to frustrate any effort to get the tenant out by turning the landlord against you, if I was present in an adjuducation, so long as there was a definite end to the tenancy, I would not have bothered with it or argued against it where a landlord was cooperating.
This has imo only slowed things down,
regarding my own situation, things are not where I would like them to be but they have improved, I dont see why what amounts to my quality of life should be undermined by a tenant (in my case, or anyone in any situation).


Basically the RTB were bordering on next to useless, toothless or not even interested. They seemed to have an overall plan that they will order evictions as a last resort and only in the absolute worst cases, even after an agreement was reached there the tenants were still difficult.
While the individual adjudicator did question statements made by the other side in my case, at the end of it all there was very much an attitude of I have to look at things from their side, complete bollock$

It is absolutely ridiculous that situations like this can exist, where one family/group can do as they please and not only get away with it, they know it and continue to frustrate efforts to fix problems and just game the system.
My advice is keep records, a written record, audio/visual, Gardai wont get involved or at least very unwilling to do so unless it is after the fact of something criminal, even then you will be asking for a lot. 1 imo they know their hands are tied, and they know scum know this and 2 they are dealing with worse and its low on their radar, even if it is ruining your life.
imo persist, keep records, keep the landlord on side ( I personally would NOT look for money or damages off them if they are cooperative and in contact).

Had my tribunal hearing yesterday regarding the dispute. It seems both myself and the landlord are on the same team ie want the tenant to comply with request. I feel sorry for the landlord, he keeps formally writing to tenant but the tenant fails to comply yet the landlord will be held responsible, where is the justice in that? How can you force a tenant to change his ways? Landlord is awaiting result of another tribunal hearing as he wants to sell property and tenant is contesting same saying that the landlord is lying (even though landlord has a sworn affidavit to demonstrate his intention). It’s madness.

Claw Hammer

RebeccaM90 wrote: »

The relevant Act is Residential Tenancies Act 2004 namely Section 16:

"16.—In addition to the obligations arising by or under any other enactment, a tenant of a dwelling shall—

(h) not behave within the dwelling, or in the vicinity of it, in a way that is anti-social or allow other occupiers of, or visitors to, the dwelling to behave within it, or in the vicinity of it, in such a way..."

That has nothing to do with the Land and Conveyancing Act.

RebeccaM90

Claw Hammer wrote: »

That has nothing to do with the Land and Conveyancing Act.

Exactly as I pointed out previously, it is the Residential Tenancies Act

ted1

RebeccaM90 wrote: »

Had my tribunal hearing yesterday regarding the dispute. It seems both myself and the landlord are on the same team ie want the tenant to comply with request. I feel sorry for the landlord, he keeps formally writing to tenant but the tenant fails to comply yet the landlord will be held responsible, where is the justice in that? How can you force a tenant to change his ways? Landlord is awaiting result of another tribunal hearing as he wants to sell property and tenant is contesting same saying that the landlord is lying (even though landlord has a sworn affidavit to demonstrate his intention). It’s madness.

Exactly the law is an ass.

A landlord was held responsible for students partying in a rented house in cork. Yet the law prevents the landlord from doing anything about it.

Claw Hammer

RebeccaM90 wrote: »

Exactly as I pointed out previously, it is the Residential Tenancies Act

You said prior to that, that it was the Land and Conveyancing Act.

RebeccaM90

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You said prior to that, that it was the Land and Conveyancing Act.

Clearly in error. If you were to look up the statutes you would see that the relevant section I quoted relates to the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 and not the LCLR Act 2009.

Claw Hammer

RebeccaM90 wrote: »

Clearly in error. If you were to look up the statutes you would see that the relevant section I quoted relates to the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 and not the LCLR Act 2009.

I looked up the Land And Conveyancing Statute. Nothing in it along the lines you suggested. You are making a proposition of law, it is up to you to look it up, not other posters.

1874

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I looked up the Land And Conveyancing Statute. Nothing in it along the lines you suggested. You are making a proposition of law, it is up to you to look it up, not other posters.

Christ on a bike, will you give it a rest, they said it was an error

Claw Hammer

1874 wrote: »

Christ on a bike, will you give it a rest, they said it was an error

Only under duress and still trying to shift the blame!

L1011

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I looked up the Land And Conveyancing Statute. Nothing in it along the lines you suggested. You are making a proposition of law, it is up to you to look it up, not other posters.

Stop badgering this poster. Drop the topic or stop posting in this thread.

Samuel T. Cogley

Once the council are renting the property do you still have recourse to the RTB. Presumably against the REIT or Owner rather than the council?

1874

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117324871#Comment_117324871

Its stuff like that is the reason for ridiculous levels of ridiculous,

If a tenant is the cause of any anti social behaviour, other than to be informed, why should it be necessary to contact the owner or at least why is it an option to allocate blame. Presumably the tenants are adults and responsible for their own behaviour, although if the Council are the main entity involved in the letting, I think they should be able to weigh in, maybe not fully responsible, partially possibly, in that they could shut down Anti Social behaviour by telling the tenants they will have them evicted and placed at the back of the queue regarding following housing enquiries.

Its the fact that Councils want nothing to do with these problems, not even to weigh in and issue a slap down, has bad tenants knowing full well they are above the law, and thats for situations where a Council is involved.