Pence comment on Brexit

rock22

Pence called in Ireland and EU to negotiate with UK in good faith. Notably , he made no request for the UK to negotiate in good faith. (quote "negotiate in good faith with Prime Minister Johnson and work to reach an agreement that respects the UK's sovereignty".)

Does this indicate a bias in US position? I thought it was very pointed that he choose to make the comment here in Ireland, almost as an admonishment to Varadker.

s7ryf3925pivug

Trump openly admires the reflection of himself that he sees at the helm of the UK. It's Trump's position but not the USA's - the Democrats have promised to torpedo any UK trade deal in the event of a hard border being set up in ireland.

Sleeper12

I don't see it any differently to Enda Kenny going to England a week before the vote & campaigning for Irish living there to vote against Brexit.

handlemaster

Like the US negotiates in good faith, come on can you take anything seriously from this administration.

pixelburp

Wouldn't pay it any heed; it read like the most neutral of fluff to come across as peacemaker. In fact I'd go one further and say that it has been obvious that the current administration does not have Brexit or Ireland as a priority or ... diplomatic partner? Indeed the EU by Trumps own words is a rival and enemy of the US so can't expect calming words from there. Then again, Brexit has been a self inflicted wound, there wouldn't be much even George Mitchell could provide at this time. This is a period of emotional populism, a yearning for an era past, the need for diplomats has passed.

Congress seems more switched on and relevant however - and have said quite plainly that they wouldn't ok a trade deal with the UK if Brexit endangered the GFA. They're the rule makers here and the ones to listen to, especially as it's a majority of the opposite party to the admin.

In any case, the current administration has been shockingly under informed when it comes to international current affairs, particularly Brexit, so if anything Pence was likely attempting to appear a voice of calm deliberation - against the whirlwind of empty braggadocio that defines the President.

toleratethis

I'm not 100% sure I caught it accurately but didn't Leo or Govt call Pence "a friend of Ireland" afterwards?

If so, that's worse than the original comment from Pence. He and his administration aren't our friends.

We do have friends in the USA but they ain't it.

osarusan

toleratethis wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure I caught it accurately but didn't Leo or Govt call Pence "a friend of Ireland" afterwards?

If so, that's worse than the original comment from Pence. He and his administration aren't our friends.

We do have friends in the USA but they ain't it.

What do you expect him to say though?


They all just use a lot of stock phrases to express meaningless platitudes most of the time.

toleratethis

osarusan wrote: »

toleratethis wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure I caught it accurately but didn't Leo or Govt call Pence "a friend of Ireland" afterwards?

If so, that's worse than the original comment from Pence. He and his administration aren't our friends.

We do have friends in the USA but they ain't it.

What do you expect him to say though?


They all just use a lot of stock phrases to express meaningless platitudes most of the time.

They do, which is what turns most people off them and paints politicians as disingenuous. I'd expect him to call Pence out on it. The Danish were quick to do so with Trump over Greenland.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

I don’t think this was a stock phrase, if it is as reported here. He’s asking the EU and Ireland to negotiate in good faith, implying they aren’t and respecting the sovereignty of the U.K. is opposing the backstop which puts a border in the Irish Sea.

osarusan

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

I don’t think this was a stock phrase, if it is as reported here. He’s asking the EU and Ireland to negotiate in good faith, implying they aren’t and respecting the sovereignty of the U.K. is opposing the backstop which puts a border in the Irish Sea.

My comment about the stock phrase was about the 'friend of Ireland' comment to Pence.

s7ryf3925pivug

osarusan wrote: »

What do you expect him to say though?


They all just use a lot of stock phrases to express meaningless platitudes most of the time.

I guess he can say it but while he does he should rub his back, a little slowly, and not stop.

screamer

Not surprising Pence definition
plural pence\ ˈpens\ : a coin of the United Kingdom equal to ¹/₁₀₀ pound

s7ryf3925pivug

screamer wrote: »

Not surprising Pence definition
plural pence\ ˈpens\ : a coin of the United Kingdom equal to ¹/₁₀₀ pound

he could have used that to make a pun.

ancapailldorcha

screamer wrote: »

Not surprising Pence definition
plural pence\ ˈpens\ : a coin of the United Kingdom equal to ¹/₁₀₀ pound

Kalani Purple Wrongdoing wrote: »

he could have used that to make a pun.

Mod: Serious discussion only please.

ChikiChiki

I'm thought it showed strong bias towards the British side and was certainly a not so subtle dig. I'm not very impressed considering how strong his Irish roots are.

Mr.Nice Guy

I liked Miriam's Lord take on it:

“Like pulling out all the stops for a much-anticipated visitor to your home and thinking it has been a great success until somebody discovers he shat on the new carpet in the spare room, the one you bought specially for him.”

Pence showed his twee, dear old Ireland flattery is just an act; unlike, say, Brendan Boyle, who has a serious, personal interest in what happens to Ireland.

mrbrianj

Pence comes over for the photo op to secure his Irish American vote. Hopefully his Irish American vote will punish him for giving us the two fingers.

Really annoying that he paints the picture its us not negotiating in good faith, when in fact the opposite is clear as day!

Always Tired

Definitely seemed like Pence was making clear how fond the Trump administration is of Boris Johnson.

I actually dislike Pence more than Trump (and I don't like Trump) but to me he is much more sinister, one of those holy joes that are pure evil underneath. He's got the extreme lack of personality and empathy you only see in a psychopath. The video of him looking on coldly at the men in the migrant camp begging for showers was awful.

The Republicans seem to have a pattern of putting a buffoon up front while the real nasty piece of work pulls the strings as VP. And I feel like Pence is even worse than Cheney was.

RobertKK

It was not a wise comment to make in Ireland, and he doubled down on it by repeating it while here.
One thing Irish people do not like is being told they should work to help a British leader like Boris Johnson. A leader who wanted to be PM so he could say he is PM rather than have any big plans that might actually work.
Trump has latched himself onto a leader who has a record of failure, and Pence implying Ireland and the EU have not acted in good faith up to now is ridiculous, he would have gotten away with it if he had included the UK with those comments.

jm08

Interesting interpretation in the comments section of the Financial Times (behind paywall) about Pence's visit to Ireland:

Sanjeevs 11 hours ago

Given the drama in the UK one of the less publicised events was VP Pence being dispatched to Ireland. Pence's mission from Trump was to beg Ireland to give his mate Johnson something, anything which would help him out the hole he has dug. And Varadkar told him to sod off. Remarkable.

It got 211 recommends!


https://www.ft.com/content/110207f2-cea2-11e9-b018-ca4456540ea6

BluePlanet

Well it's looking like they have backed the wrong horse as BoJo is a total flop by most measurements.

Once he falls on his own sword, or creates a major constitutional crisis in the UK, there will be blow-back on Pence and Trump for supporting him.

fly_agaric

He was just reflecting Trump's policies.
Pro-Brexit and anti-EU. The EU as an organisation is to be viewed as an obstacle to US geopolitical goals, a strategic enemy.
IMO the goal is to foster acrimony and discord between European states and then treat with them individually as weakened US clients.
Very similar to Russia in many ways + total reversal of US policy towards Europe (both political parties) since WW2.

The thing is, I think these may now be mainstream ideas within the Republican party itself, and that is going to endure long after Trump has left office.
I don't think politicians in Europe have woken up to what this could mean really and how big a deal it is; may not even be on the radar here anyway.

edit: I suppose it is not something politicians here in Ireland can do anything about... Given how deeply embedded we are in the EU + how much we also depend on US investments and connections we have could be in a lot of trouble if US foreign policy becomes hostile to the EU each time a Republican president is in office.

cryptocurrency

mrbrianj wrote: »

Pence comes over for the photo op to secure his Irish American vote. Hopefully his Irish American vote will punish him for giving us the two fingers.

Really annoying that he paints the picture its us not negotiating in good faith, when in fact the opposite is clear as day!

They don't read what our papers say in any numbers worth even talking about. They watch Fox like everyone else and know he was in Ireland and now the UK...that is it, that's all they ever know..or care

cryptocurrency

fly_agaric wrote: »

He was just reflecting Trump's policies.
Pro-Brexit and anti-EU. The EU as an organisation is to be viewed as an obstacle to US geopolitical goals, a strategic enemy.
IMO the goal is to foster acrimony and discord between European states and then treat with them individually as weakened US clients.
Very similar to Russia in many ways + total reversal of US policy towards Europe (both political parties) since WW2.

The thing is, I think these may now be mainstream ideas within the Republican party itself, and that is going to endure long after Trump has left office.
I don't think politicians in Europe have woken up to what this could mean really and how big a deal it is; may not even be on the radar here anyway.

edit: I suppose it is not something politicians here in Ireland can do anything about... Given how deeply embedded we are in the EU + how much we also depend on US investments and connections we have could be in a lot of trouble if US foreign policy becomes hostile to the EU each time a Republican president is in office.

No, they know the EU is a protectionist block like the UK does. The EU "makes all these trade deals" on terms for certain powerful groups like french agri but the UK doesn't care about its protection as it wants to pump its services out globally and the US think all areas should open for competition.

US is sick of trying to do a deal with the EU on trade as they know the EU is dragging it out endlessly

jm08

cryptocurrency wrote: »

No, they know the EU is a protectionist block like the UK does. The EU "makes all these trade deals" on terms for certain powerful groups like french agri but the UK doesn't care about its protection as it wants to pump its services out globally and the US think all areas should open for competition.

US is sick of trying to do a deal with the EU on trade as they know the EU is dragging it out endlessly

The EU will never allow US agri food into the EU. And the main reason is because of hygiene standards, use of hormones and pesticides. If the US up their standards, there is every chance that some sort of a trade deal will be done.


By the way, wasn't BJ complaining to Trump at the G7 that the US will have to remove some of its protectionist barriers on financial services. Seemingly, every State has different laws.

jm08

Pence's twitter:

President @realDonaldTrump told me to tell Prime Minister @BorisJohnson that when Brexit is complete, we will begin negotiations on a free-trade deal IMMEDIATELY! Our message is clear: the minute the UK is Out, the US is In! ����

https://twitter.com/VP/status/1169728827213303808

Its going to be some fun when that starts! It will be interesting to see how Pete King responds to that message!

Peregrinus

cryptocurrency wrote: »

No, they know the EU is a protectionist block like the UK does. The EU "makes all these trade deals" on terms for certain powerful groups like french agri but the UK doesn't care about its protection as it wants to pump its services out globally and the US think all areas should open for competition.

US is sick of trying to do a deal with the EU on trade as they know the EU is dragging it out endlessly

Greetings, visitor from planet Brexitmind! Here on planet Earth, the EU has a larger network of free trade deals, with many more countries, than the US has. And, for the rest of the world with whom it trades on most-favoured-nation terms, the EU's MFN tariffs are lower than the US's MFN tariffs. (And all this was true even before Trump came along.)

In other words, if you're going to categorise one of these two as "protectionist", it has to be the US unless you're (a) profoundly ignorant, or (b) a liar.

fash

Peregrinus wrote: »

In other words, if you're going to categorise one of these two as "protectionist", it has to be the US unless you're (a) profoundly ignorant, or (b) a liar.

There is also the possibility of both a AND b being true at the same time.

fly_agaric

cryptocurrency wrote: »

No, they know the EU is a protectionist block like the UK does. The EU "makes all these trade deals" on terms for certain powerful groups like french agri but the UK doesn't care about its protection as it wants to pump its services out globally and the US think all areas should open for competition.

US is sick of trying to do a deal with the EU on trade as they know the EU is dragging it out endlessly

Donald "trade wars are good and easy to win"/"America First" Trump is not a free-market idealist.
His philosophy (to extent he has one) is foriegn markets should be opened up to competition where US will win due to its natural strengths or it can rig the game some way so it will win. Meanwhile, the home/US market is protected.

cryptocurrency

fly_agaric wrote: »

Donald "trade wars are good and easy to win"/"America First" Trump is not a free-market idealist.
His philosophy (to extent he has one) is foriegn markets should be opened up to competition where US will win due to its natural strengths or it can rig the game some way so it will win. Meanwhile, the home/US market is protected.

Trump and the US have been banging their head against a brick wall trying to get a EU trade deal and the EU have played every trick in the book to frustrate it to their way.

Trump has not really started the trade war with the EU yet and when he does it will hurt.

rogue-entity

cryptocurrency wrote: »

...the UK ... wants to pump its services out globally

Being in the EU doesn't prevent business in the UK from selling its services to citizens in third countries, unless those third countries put up barriers.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

and the US think all areas should open for competition.

That's not universally true, there are multiple sectors across the US economy with zero competition and straight up monopolies or coordinated oligopolies and they have actively worked to block and prevent any substantial effort that would affect those. The US is not unlike China - market competition is fine so long as US companies are dominant.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

US is sick of trying to do a deal with the EU on trade as they know the EU is dragging it out endlessly

No, the EU has standards and expects other countries to meet those standards, if and when the US chooses to follow suit, then deals get done.

Why should we lower our standards for the sake of American corporate profit?

fly_agaric wrote: »

Donald "trade wars are good and easy to win"/"America First" Trump is not a free-market idealist.
His philosophy (to extent he has one) is foreign markets should be opened up to competition where US will win due to its natural strengths or it can rig the game some way so it will win. Meanwhile, the home/US market is protected.

Not entirely unlike China's current position.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Trump and the US have been banging their head against a brick wall trying to get a EU trade deal and the EU have played every trick in the book to frustrate it to their way.

Fixed it for you:

Trump and the US have been banging their head against a brick wall trying to get a EU trade deal [that requires the EU cede to US demands]and the EU have [refused to lower their standards]

The US is protectionist, your failure to acknowledge that while labelling the EU as such is disingenuous to the point of hypocrisy.


To the matter of Pence comment, Pence is reflecting the Trump Administration's view - they see the EU as an obstacle to US geopolitical and corporate interests as astutely noted by a poster before me - it really is as simple as that. And the Irish-American vote may yet punish him for it.

fly_agaric

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Trump and the US have been banging their head against a brick wall trying to get a EU trade deal and the EU have played every trick in the book to frustrate it to their way.

Trump has not really started the trade war with the EU yet and when he does it will hurt.

Last efforts at a deal mostly occurred during Obama's term rather than Trump's. "Every trick in the book" is an odd way of describing the public agitation against any deal/protests (esp. in France and Germany I think) that put the willies up politicians when leaks of ideas being discussed in the negotiations started to come out.

I think Trump ended the TTIP negotiations (probably part of trying to reverse and undo everything Obama worked on rather than opposition to the idea). Trying to negotiate anything with him in power in the US is impossible.
He just issues demands and threats through his minions and over twitter in person whenever he feels like it. It'll be interesting to see how the UK gets on with that if they do go through with the "no deal" exit and try to get a quick new US trade agreement.

For an Irish person posting on an Irish website you seem to be looking forward with glee to a Trump "trade war" with the EU from which Ireland will not emerge unscathed.

rogue-entity wrote:

Not entirely unlike China's current position.

Yes (although China is more protectionist than the US).
It's very strange, but my impression as a non expert on any of this is that China is probably less "anti-EU" than the current US administration!
IMO they support idea of an "EU" that they can deal with one-on-one as a collective (as opposed to the EU fragmenting) but of course they will try and influence or bully member countries if necessary to affect the EU decision making in ways that are advantageous for them.

jmayo

mrbrianj wrote: »

Pence comes over for the photo op to secure his Irish American vote. Hopefully his Irish American vote will punish him for giving us the two fingers.

Really annoying that he paints the picture its us not negotiating in good faith, when in fact the opposite is clear as day!

I don't know why anyone expects anything from that individual.
He is as two faced at the guy he is backing, Johnson.

Some people think that because of his big Irish background that he is going to be somewhat well disposed to us, but he is just like that other soup taker Regan who was up the hole of the Brits.
And Pence is a fan of Regan.

Pence came from an Irish American catholic democrat background and until college he was himself.
Then he went far right becoming an evangelical, born-again Christian and Republican.
The worst kind of American.

Melanchthon

fly_agaric wrote: »

Yes (although China is more protectionist than the US).
It's very strange, but my impression as a non expert on any of this is that China is probably less "anti-EU" than the current US administration!
IMO they support idea of an "EU" that they can deal with one-on-one as a collective (as opposed to the EU fragmenting) but of course they will try and influence or bully member countries if necessary to affect the EU decision making in ways that are advantageous for them.

Makes sense, EU fits into the belt and road initiative, they know the EU is weak on the idea of solidarity in terms of geopolitics stuff if its in the interests of powerful members see Nordstream II, they know the idea of an EU being a military threat and attacking in a manner that impinges Chinese actions in their areas of interests isn't going to happen look at the Pew polling of, 58% of German citizens wouldn't support war if Russia attacked an allied state, that would be an attack on a neighboring country, what do you think the appetite would be for defending Taiwan or other countries if China decided to flex its muscles this is aside from excepting France and the UK the EU is militarily a joke.

fly_agaric

^^They (China) are unthreatened by the EU (as currently constituted) and it is very handy for them to deal with for trade issues etc instead of navigating 27/28 separate countries.

That might change if China's own interests within Europe expand (belt & road) and are being obstructed by the EU as they see it, or if the EU starts to become more federal as part of a new drive for it by the founder members. The second would see the EU develop a more cohesive foreign policy after Brexit + make it more inclined to take positions or actions that annoy China. Both possibilities seem likely to me.

The US administration however sees the EU as a straight up "threat" and are actively working to undermine and fragment it.

edit: on the big geopolitical stuff I think all EU members have had failings in solidarity with each other not just the large/powerful ones.

Some of the Eastern ones seem quite happy to cozy up to Xi and even Putin + shaft the rest if there's something in it for them. See also what happened (is still happening to lesser extent) in the migrant crisis. A distinct lack of solidarity from East to West/West to East and between the wealthy North/fairly migrant free East + poorer South mainly dealing with the problem.
Also on your specific example of Germans not supporting war if Russia attacked, it is an extremely pacifist country for obvious reasons and it is hard/harsh to blame them for that. What % would be willing to support a war in defense of Germany itself??
In Brexit, the EU members that have wobbled (only slightly) on solidarity with Ireland's position re NI border etc. are Poland and (I think??) Hungary, not the more powerful/richer Western states who of course are going to be hammered far more by a "no deal" brexit.

Melanchthon

fly_agaric wrote: »

Some of the Eastern ones seem quite happy to cozy up to Xi and even Putin + shaft the rest if there's something in it for them. See also what happened (is still happening to lesser extent) in the migrant crisis. A distinct lack of solidarity from East to West/West to East and between the wealthy North/fairly migrant free East + poorer South mainly dealing with the problem.

Thats one way of looking at eastern europe, the other is that the Hungarians started putting up fences and blocking refugee flows, solving the problem as they saw it and they were castigated.
Agree about the general self interest though but AFAIK thats pretty recent while Nordstream II which some of them view as a slap in the face by Germany was planned before this.

fly_agaric wrote: »

In Brexit, the EU members that have wobbled (only slightly) on solidarity with Ireland's position re NI border etc. are Poland and (I think??) Hungary, not the more powerful/richer Western states who of course are going to be hammered far more by a "no deal" brexit.

Possibly because they are less inclined to the federal ideals of a lot of the western European leaders, people like Tusk are lauded in the west but whats their popularity at home AFAIK its pretty low.