Do we now have seal eating Killer Whale pods in Irish Waters

Birdnuts

I'm asking this question after watching a very enjoyable nature programme about Shetland on BBC2 this evening. It appears a seal hunting pod of Orcas have moved into the area and are targeting breeding beaches during the summer season. Would be interesting to know with the increased sightings of Orca in Irish waters in recent years, are any targeting Irish seal Colonies?? I have one just offshore from my place in North Mayo(Broadhaven). Get plenty of Dolphin and Porpoise but no Orca yet(to my knowledge)

Rows Grower

I tell ya one thing we could do with a few of them off the south Kerry coast.

The seals are multiplying and spreading like Japanese knotweed and the salmon are getting smaller and fewer every year.

ardinn

Rows Grower wrote: »

I tell ya one thing we could do with a few of them off the south Kerry coast.

The seals are multiplying and spreading like Japanese knotweed and the salmon are getting smaller and fewer every year.

I was just going to post the same thing.

Orcas would be extremely welcome around wexford.

Birdnuts

Rows Grower wrote: »

I tell ya one thing we could do with a few of them off the south Kerry coast.

The seals are multiplying and spreading like Japanese knotweed and the salmon are getting smaller and fewer every year.

I was thinking the fishermen would welcome it;) - it would be interesting to know were seals being preyed on by Orcas prior to the era of commercial Whaling from the late 18th centaury onwards which severely impacted many species?

magicbastarder

Rows Grower wrote: »

The seals are multiplying and spreading like Japanese knotweed and the salmon are getting smaller and fewer every year.

are we in a causation/correlation discussion now?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

magicbastarder wrote: »

are we in a causation/correlation discussion now?

No, more a cetacean discussion.

kippy

To be fair, I'd suspect humans overfishing and environmental problems the cause of fish stock and size issues rather than the poor seal.

Rows Grower

magicbastarder wrote: »

are we in a causation/correlation discussion now?

Causation does not imply correlation mr moderator.

It was merely a short discussion between members with an interest in what is going on around them.

magicbastarder

Rows Grower wrote: »

Causation does not imply correlation mr moderator.

that was my point; and the converse too. also, i'm not a moderator of this forum. my opinions are as well (or in this case, badly) informed as anyone else, and me being a mod of a completely unconnected forum makes to difference to that.

however; i'm not inclined to believe that salmon stocks out west are that badly affected by numbers of seals returning to what (at a guess) are a small fraction of what would be considered their 'natural' level.
seals are by far from the only predator affected salmon levels, but they're obviously going to be blamed by some.

Stigura

" Do we now have seal eating Killer Whale pods in Irish Waters "

magicbastarder wrote: »

are we in a causation/correlation discussion now?

Arely Colossal Snack wrote: »

No, more a cetacean discussion.

Comedy Gold! Ye couldn't make this stuff up!

Rows Grower

magicbastarder wrote: »

that was my point; and the converse too. also, i'm not a moderator of this forum. my opinions are as well (or in this case, badly) informed as anyone else, and me being a mod of a completely unconnected forum makes to difference to that.

however; i'm not inclined to believe that salmon stocks out west are that badly affected by numbers of seals returning to what (at a guess) are a small fraction of what would be considered their 'natural' level.
seals are by far from the only predator affected salmon levels, but they're obviously going to be blamed by some.

I really think you should stick to the cycling because I find it very difficult to comprehend your point.

magicbastarder

you must have had even more beer than me so.

Rows Grower

magicbastarder wrote: »

you must have had even more beer than me so.

Yeah, that would explain it alright.

Atlantic Dawn

kippy wrote: »

To be fair, I'd suspect humans overfishing and environmental problems the cause of fish stock and size issues rather than the poor seal.

I've never seen so many seals in the last 10 years as I seen in the 20 before, if it's overfishing causing the problem how in the jaysus are their numbers increasing? Makes no sense.

magicbastarder

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/just-three-or-four-in-100-wild-salmon-return-to-irish-waters-1.3875588

Atlantic Dawn

magicbastarder wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/just-three-or-four-in-100-wild-salmon-return-to-irish-waters-1.3875588

Salmon "farming", that's another beauty, how it's allowed is beyond me, utter disgrace.

Rows Grower

magicbastarder wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/just-three-or-four-in-100-wild-salmon-return-to-irish-waters-1.3875588

http://www.conserveireland.com/mammals/grey_seal.php

Far be it from me to imply a connection but read the both articles carefully and draw your own conclusions.

If you are after too many beers just read the first sentences in the first report and the last sentence in the second report.

I need some rest now, dawn is approaching and the stag hunting season has just begun.

Birdnuts

No offence folks but can we get back on topic;)

magicbastarder

i suspect - unfortunately - the answer to your question is 'insufficient data'.

paul71

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I've never seen so many seals in the last 10 years as I seen in the 20 before, if it's overfishing causing the problem how in the jaysus are their numbers increasing? Makes no sense.

Are their numbers increasing or is their behaviour changing because reduced fish stocks. Perhaps they are following fishing trawlers to feed off the discarded undersized fish that are caught, and that makes them more visable by being closer to populated areas around fishing ports.

ardinn

kippy wrote: »

To be fair, I'd suspect humans overfishing and environmental problems the cause of fish stock and size issues rather than the poor seal.

The seals in Ireland along with cormorants moving upriver have a massive hand in the decline of salmon.

Cormorants are moving out of need - there feeding grounds have been stripped, but, the 6 mile ban may help with this issue.

Seal populations have exploded and are seriously out of hand. Culls need to happen, how the common seal is protected here is beyond me.

They will be the final nail in the coffin, they are intelligent hunters, they line estuaries and chase inland to the 1st weirs, they hunt in packs off the coast and decimate shoals.

Is is totally unsustainable for salmon in Ireland if they are not dealt with.

OpenYourEyes

Rows Grower wrote: »

Causation does not imply correlation mr moderator.

It was merely a short discussion between members with an interest in what is going on around them.

Rows Grower wrote: »

I really think you should stick to the cycling because I find it very difficult to comprehend your point.

Mod Note: Keep it civil or I'll happily remove people.

OpenYourEyes

Suffice it to say that Salmon (and other species including Eel) have a particularly difficult life cycle compared to fish that remain resident in the same area for their entire lives. With that in mind, coupled with the poor state of our waterbodies and surrounding landscape (agriculture, forestry, drainage, cutover bogs, flood defense, dams, weirs etc) that it seems very simplistic and even optimistic to blame their predators - if only it was that simple to solve!

Also note that nobody ever blames Kingfishers, Great-crested Grebes etc. - always Cormorants and Seals! I suspect that if Cormorants looked as nice as the former two then we'd be blaming something else...

And finally, lest some untruths persist - our wintering Cormorant population is declining and Cormorants have always been birds of the coast and inland lakes and rivers - it's not a new phenomenon by any means.

Rows Grower

They might be here;
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/so-sad-to-see-woman-finds-three-decapitated-seals-on-beach-947565.html

Rows Grower

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Suffice it to say that Salmon (and other species including Eel) have a particularly difficult life cycle compared to fish that remain resident in the same area for their entire lives. With that in mind, coupled with the poor state of our waterbodies and surrounding landscape (agriculture, forestry, drainage, cutover bogs, flood defense, dams, weirs etc) that it seems very simplistic and even optimistic to blame their predators - if only it was that simple to solve!

Also note that nobody ever blames Kingfishers, Great-crested Grebes etc. - always Cormorants and Seals! I suspect that if Cormorants looked as nice as the former two then we'd be blaming something else...

And finally, lest some untruths persist - our wintering Cormorant population is declining and Cormorants have always been birds of the coast and inland lakes and rivers - it's not a new phenomenon by any means.

A lot of the times the simple answer is usually the right one, in this case common sense would dictate that the seals are indeed to blame for much of the decline in our salmon stocks.

The seals became a protected species in the 70's and from that time there has been a noticeable decline in our salmon stocks as pointed out in a previous post quoting two different articles which were posted.

People with experience of understanding nature know that salmon will wait until the river they were spawned in is at the right water level before attempting to travel the river, most rivers get the annual run of salmon at the same time each year.

If we have a particularly long dry spell at the time the salmon normally enter the river they are stuck outside waiting for the river to send a signal that the time is right. This is the time when the seals do the damage to the stocks.

I've seen a battle royal between a cormorant trying to lift a peel (a young salmon) from a small river I fish on a regular basis, the salmon was lucky to escape that time. I've never seen or heard of a Kingfisher doing damage to salmon stocks, probably because they don't.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Salmon and cod are naturally prey to seals, as they are among the slowest fish. It's nothing new and has always been so. In the 1960s British biologists revealed that 80 per cent of the stomach contents of seals sampled was salmon and 18 per cent cod. Thus is nature. The fall in overall stock levels goes way beyond natural predation. And I'm a keen angler for over 60 years. I've seen stocks reduce but predation by seals and cormorants is nothing new.

Birdnuts

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Suffice it to say that Salmon (and other species including Eel) have a particularly difficult life cycle compared to fish that remain resident in the same area for their entire lives. With that in mind, coupled with the poor state of our waterbodies and surrounding landscape (agriculture, forestry, drainage, cutover bogs, flood defense, dams, weirs etc) that it seems very simplistic and even optimistic to blame their predators - if only it was that simple to solve!

Also note that nobody ever blames Kingfishers, Great-crested Grebes etc. - always Cormorants and Seals! I suspect that if Cormorants looked as nice as the former two then we'd be blaming something else...

And finally, lest some untruths persist - our wintering Cormorant population is declining and Cormorants have always been birds of the coast and inland lakes and rivers - it's not a new phenomenon by any means.

The Hydro dams on the Shannon and Erne have done immense damage to salmon and Eel stocks too. Worse is that the ESB refuses to mitigate such damage via maintained fish ladders, filters etc.:mad: As regards cormorants there is evidence that Sea-Eagles on Lough Derg are snacking on them;)

MadYaker

Where can I find info on orca pods around Ireland? I do a bit of long distance sea kayaking and would love to see them hunting seals. From a safe distance!

uck51js9zml2yt

Rows Grower wrote: »

I tell ya one thing we could do with a few of them off the south Kerry coast.

The seals are multiplying and spreading like Japanese knotweed and the salmon are getting smaller and fewer every year.

I would suggest that the factory ships are taking more salmon than the seals.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Try contacting here..

https://iwdg.ie/


But you're very unlikely to see them hunting seals.

Rows Grower

Logan Ugly Duckling wrote: »

Rows Grower wrote: »

I tell ya one thing we could do with a few of them off the south Kerry coast.

The seals are multiplying and spreading like Japanese knotweed and the salmon are getting smaller and fewer every year.

I would suggest that the factory ships are taking more salmon than the seals.

Highly unlikely.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Rows Grower wrote: »

Highly unlikely.

http://www.nasco.int/pdf/2014%20papers/NEA_14_6.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/806275/SalmonAssessmentReport-2017-final.pdf


Perhaps not factory ships but commercial fishing certainly is/was a major player in the reduction of stocks and poor numbers of returning fish to spawn.

Rows Grower

Arely Colossal Snack wrote: »

Rows Grower wrote: »

Highly unlikely.

http://www.nasco.int/pdf/2014%20papers/NEA_14_6.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/806275/SalmonAssessmentReport-2017-final.pdf


Perhaps not factory ships but commercial fishing certainly is/was a major player in the reduction of stocks and poor numbers of returning fish to spawn.

That report concerns English and Welsh salmon.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Rows Grower wrote: »

That report concerns English and Welsh salmon.

The pressures on wild Atlantic salmon are the same in Ireland as England and Wales. Plus, there are references to Ireland in the report.

Rows Grower

Any reference to factory ships in it?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Rows Grower wrote: »

Any reference to factory ships in it?

I clearly said

Perhaps not factory ships but commercial fishing

But look, there are many factors at play in this.

You've your own opinion, others are looking further afield and trying to find a solution.

Rows Grower

Perhaps is an interesting word.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Rows Grower wrote: »

Perhaps is an interesting word.

Okay, carry on, I'm not going to start arguing over the use of simple language.
The reports speak for themselves and I'll leave it at that rather than justify every phrase to you.

tricky D

Rows Grower wrote: »

A lot of the times the simple answer is usually the right one, in this case common sense would dictate that the seals are indeed to blame for much of the decline in our salmon stocks.

This disagrees https://www.fisheriesireland.ie/documents/412-a-pilot-study-of-seal-predation-on-salmon-stocks-in-selected-irish-rivers-and-estuaries-1/file.html


Common sense for most of us others here is that effects of natural predation have long been overtaken by human factors.

OpenYourEyes

Mod Note: Just a reminder that the thread is about Killer Whales primarily, and seals secondarily - lets get it back on course.

Rows Grower

tricky D wrote: »

Rows Grower wrote: »

A lot of the times the simple answer is usually the right one, in this case common sense would dictate that the seals are indeed to blame for much of the decline in our salmon stocks.

This disagrees https://www.fisheriesireland.ie/documents/412-a-pilot-study-of-seal-predation-on-salmon-stocks-in-selected-irish-rivers-and-estuaries-1/file.html


Common sense for most of us others here is that effects of natural predation have long been overtaken by human factors.

That study doesn’t disagree, it actually confirms my point.

tricky D

If between 1.6 and 15% is semantically enough 'much' for you, then it sure does confirm your point.

Rows Grower

tricky D wrote: »

If between 1.6 and 15% is semantically enough 'much' for you, then it sure does confirm your point.

33% is what is stated for Kerry.

wexandproud

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I've never seen so many seals in the last 10 years as I seen in the 20 before, if it's overfishing causing the problem how in the jaysus are their numbers increasing? Makes no sense.

same down here seals everywhere 100's and 100's on the sand banks at wexford , if they only eat 1 salmon a day that a lot of fish , but they fellow poaching a few fish now and again is seen to be the problem [ not defending it] . A few frinds of mine who used to fish salmon in Kerry were told by scientists during the licence buy back discussions that predation by seals and cormorants , pollution and fishermen in that order were the problem with salmon stocks . the department told the marine institute that seals and pollution were to be dropped , fishermen were the target
overfishing is the great buzzword , Im sure your aware of the complete f..k up made with the mackerel stocks in the Atlantic . scientists admitted their calculation method was wrong and have adjusted the stock upwards by approx 2 million tonnes . Still if somebody gets no mackerel on their local beach they blame over fishing , they never allow for the fact that fish stocks have changed migratory patterns . Boats have been throwing back increasing amount of dead fish in the name of conversation . If you are out at sea and throw tonnes of dead fish back its called conservation if you threw dead fish of a pier wall its called dumping
any way back on topic . Don't know if they eat seals or not but killer wales seen fairly regularly when the herrings arrive in the s/east

Rows Grower

wexandproud wrote: »

same down here seals everywhere 100's and 100's on the sand banks at wexford , if they only eat 1 salmon a day that a lot of fish , but they fellow poaching a few fish now and again is seen to be the problem [ not defending it] . A few frinds of mine who used to fish salmon in Kerry were told by scientists during the licence buy back discussions that predation by seals and cormorants , pollution and fishermen in that order were the problem with salmon stocks . the department told the marine institute that seals and pollution were to be dropped , fishermen were the target
overfishing is the great buzzword , Im sure your aware of the complete f..k up made with the mackerel stocks in the Atlantic . scientists admitted their calculation method was wrong and have adjusted the stock upwards by approx 2 million tonnes . Still if somebody gets no mackerel on their local beach they blame over fishing , they never allow for the fact that fish stocks have changed migratory patterns . Boats have been throwing back increasing amount of dead fish in the name of conversation . If you are out at sea and throw tonnes of dead fish back its called conservation if you threw dead fish of a pier wall its called dumping
any way back on topic . Don't know if they eat seals or not but killer wales seen fairly regularly when the herrings arrive in the s/east

There was a wildlife program on RTE 1 at 6.30 this evening that showed 1,000 seals on the beach at the Blasket Islands.

Someone had posted a link to a study that they reckoned proved me wrong but they mustn't have even read the study as it states that studies conducted in 2009 and 2010 found that salmonoids comprised 33% of prey biomass in the diet of grey seals on the Blasket Islands.

Some people don't like facts getting in the way of a good old argument, even if they provide the facts themselves.

dodderangler

Send them out to bullock Barbour.
Pain in me arse with that seal taking the mackerel off me line.
I’m aware that orca eat mackerel but I’d rather give to them than that snarky seal that steals your catch

Birdnuts

Getting back to Killer Whales - it was interesting how the big male killed the seal, with a deadly belt of his massive tail. He must be some size with his dorsal fin alone over 6ft!!:eek:

magicbastarder

Birdnuts wrote: »

with the increased sightings of Orca in Irish waters in recent years

when/where do they show up?

BorneTobyWilde

Are seals not used for meat? Shirley if there are so many of them they'd be a good source of meat instead of more farting cattle, we could farm the seals.

Rows Grower

Some scientists reckon they toss the seals about to loosen the skin as they don't eat the skin.

Others reckon they do it for fun.

Check this out...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7WGIH35JBE

Rows Grower

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Are seals not used for meat? Shirley if there are so many of them they'd be a good source of meat instead of more farting cattle, we could farm the seals.

The people that lived on the Blasket Islands used to eat them.

Some Eskimos are partial to them too, might explain the way they kiss.