Vladimir Putin secures alliance with Turkey

Jimmy Garlic

Nice to see that Erdogan knows that alliance with Russia is the way to go. Erdogan on his recent trip to Moscow vowed to normalize the situation in Syria's idlib province. He also had a sneak peek at more state of the art Russian military hardware that will be available for Turkey to purchace in the near future...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-27/putin-pitches-new-warplane-to-erdogan-as-u-s-turkey-ties-strain

Overheal

This article doesn’t mention an alliance? Then being members of NATO I’d expect that to be the actual headline

Jimmy Garlic

Overheal wrote: »

This article doesn’t mention an alliance?

It is obvious.the deal will be formalized soon.

Cheerful Spring2

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Nice to see that Erdogan knows that alliance with Russia is the way to go. Erdogan on his recent trip to Moscow vowed to normalize the situation in Syria's idlib province. He also had a sneak peek at more state of the art Russian military hardware that will be available for Turkey to purchace in the near future...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-27/putin-pitches-new-warplane-to-erdogan-as-u-s-turkey-ties-strain

Turkey playing both sides, and i agree though the way things are going right now, NATO, might decide to remove them from the alliance eventually? The Pentagon and White House were not happy Turkey purchased the Russian made S400 anti-aircraft missile mobile system. They told them not to and they ignored the request. The Americans had made a deal with Turkey to purchase F35 fighter aircraft, a deal now scrapped, because of this spat. Now Turkey has the option to buy Russian made SU35 military jet. If they do the Turkey military will be flying Russian made jets. Clearly Turkey is sliding more and more each day to the Russian side, but it's unclear if Nato is willing to let Turkey leave the Nato alliance?

Kimsang

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Turkey playing both sides, and i agree though the way things are going right now, NATO, might decide to remove them from the alliance eventually?

Doesn't Turkey have the second biggest military contribution to NATO?

If true, his sounds like quite the power shift, considering NATO was set up to combat the Soviet Union.

Turkey’s contributions to NATO are ‘essential,’ NATO chief says

Markcheese

Turkey obviously doesn't feel threatened by Russia, as it did by the soviet Union, and Erdoğan is repositioning his out look east rather than west.
To be fair putins version of democracy suits him better anyway, the only thing will be, can he hold the Turkish economy together without inward investment,? (the west isn't going to invest if theres major inflation, and the currency keeps dropping, Russias not got cash or appetite to invest, Quatar is propping the currency at the moment, in exchange for security, but for how long,?

Beta Ray Bill

There is no doubt the relationship between Turkey and Russia is improving after Turkey shot down one of their planes a number of months back.

The issue wasn't the plane being shot down, but the complete lack of NATO support in what happened next.
No NATO states came out defending Turkey.
Then there's the pouring of refugees into Turkey due to the actions of other NATO states (Which other said states provide no refugee support to Turkey for)
But the BIG issue is that US refused to sell Turkey the Patriot missile system (despite them agreeing to sell Turkey the F-35!? )

All this means that Turkey feels it's been left out in the cold, and Russia has been very quick to step in, having sold them S400 (Much to the horror of the other NATO states)

Turkey is like that mad friend that we all tolerate. They have huge human rights and domestic issues that we are all willing to overlook because of their strategic position.

There is a great video by "knowing better" on Turkey/Ottoman Empire:

Ulysses Gaze

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

There is no doubt the relationship between Turkey and Russia is improving after Turkey shot down one of their planes a number of months back.

The issue wasn't the plane being shot down, but the complete lack of NATO support in what happened next.
No NATO states came out defending Turkey.
Then there's the pouring of refugees into Turkey due to the actions of other NATO states (Which other said states provide no refugee support to Turkey for)
But the BIG issue is that US refused to sell Turkey the Patriot missile system (despite them agreeing to sell Turkey the F-35!? )

All this means that Turkey feels it's been left out in the cold, and Russia has been very quick to step in, having sold them S400 (Much to the horror of the other NATO states)

Turkey is like that mad friend that we all tolerate. They have huge human rights and domestic issues that we are all willing to overlook because of their strategic position.

There is a great video by "knowing better" on Turkey/Ottoman Empire:

I thought Erdogan would be smarter than to purchase that dog with fleas...

Beta Ray Bill

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I thought Erdogan would be smarter than to purchase that dog with fleas...

Most expensive weapons system ever.
Very complicated, lots of issues.

But what's the alternative?
F-15/F-22 America won't sell
F-16/F-18 given they've had a lot of updates, they are still very old (70's planes)
Eurofighter/Rafale are an option, but they are getting on a bit (90's planes). And now that Turkey uses S400, NATO allied countries would not like the Russians to be able to gather data on how effective their anti air system is against NATO planes.

There is no* other NATO or NATO allied country producing a multi-role fighter at the minute.
Edit: JAS 39 Gripen <- Very capable

riffmongous

I read only yesterday though that Turkey plans to send troops to Idlib, which is currently under a Syrian/Russian offensive.

The western support for the Kurds is no doubt also a big problem for Turkey so I wouldn't be surprised if the russian friendship is a way to force NATO to drop the Kurds

Jimmy Garlic

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I thought Erdogan would be smarter than to purchase that dog with fleas...

Erdogan knows he could get couped and replaced by those in NATO who want a compliant anti RussianTurkey. Securing a n alliance with Russia secures Turkey.

Gatling

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

But what's the alternative?
F-15/
F-16/F-18 given they've had a lot of updates, they are still very old (70's planes)
Eurofighter/Rafale are an option, but they are getting on a bit (90's planes).

There is no* other NATO or NATO allied country producing a multi-role fighter at the minute.
Edit: JAS 39 Gripen <- Very capable

The F15 ,16 ,18 are still some of the most capable aircraft flying today what may have stated in the 70s have mostly been replaced with newer and more advanced variants .

Russia is desperate for military sales there version of a stealth jet was anything but even the Indians walked away from that expensive non stealth very expensive project ,

The griphen E should be an amazing platform along with the next eurofigher upgrade package ,

Erdoğan is playing a dangerous game ,

Erdoğan hates Assad and the Iran ,Putin is firmly allied to Assad but not Iran ,
Turkey is a NATO member but the organisation supports the Kurds and No supporters of Iran ,
Putin uses NATO to cement his position as defender of the Soviet Union holding back the NATO horde (who aren't actually at his border)
Despite what several boards posters claim .

Erdoğan could easily by removed by the Russians with a pro putin,assad ,iran candidate ,
Erdoğan is playing a dangerous game if he burns NATO and putin decides he putting a new leader along with Russian military advisers anything could happen

Gatling

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Securing a n alliance with Russia secures Turkey.

Lol no

Jimmy Garlic

At this rate all the US and friends will have left on their team in the Middle East will be the Medieval Kingdom, it's vassals and handout dependant fort Israel. Turkey is the most potent military power in the region, the alliance with Russia is a mighty blow to Pax Americana and its ability to create chaos in the region.

Jimmy Garlic

Jimmy Garlic

You have gone very quite gatling. Are you eating your jocks? Another victory for Vladimir Vladimirovich, a geopolitical mastermind, the statesman of this century.

Gatling

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

You have gone .

Unfortunately another personal homoeroticism thread .





What's to add

Overheal

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

At this rate all the US and friends will have left on their team in the Middle East will be the Medieval Kingdom, it's vassals and handout dependant fort Israel. Turkey is the most potent military power in the region, the alliance with Russia is a mighty blow to Pax Americana and its ability to create chaos in the region.

"A million dollars but..."

- Peace in the Middle East

- But they're all allied with Ex-KGB led Russia

Overheal

Gatling wrote: »

Unfortunately another personal homoeroticism thread .





What's to add

huh

Jimmy Garlic

Gatling wrote: »

Unfortunately another personal homoeroticism thread .





What's to add

What's that supposed to mean Gatling?

Tokyo

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

You have gone very quite gatling. Are you eating your jocks? Another victory for Vladimir Vladimirovich, a geopolitical mastermind, the statesman of this century.

Gatling wrote: »

Unfortunately another personal homoeroticism thread .

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

What's that supposed to mean Gatling?

Mod: Quit the sniping at each other.

s7ryf3925pivug

When I see western people expressing triumphalist attitudes about Putin I feel like someone is kicking me in the brain. Not sniping at anyone, just describing the physical reaction I experience.

Jimmy Garlic

Ian Thundering Shrimp wrote: »

When I see western people expressing triumphalist attitudes about Putin I feel like someone is kicking me in the brain. Not sniping at anyone, just describing the physical reaction I experience.

Triumphant attitudes about American exceptionalism are far more common. I just think it's nice to see Putin rattle some cages as he goes around doing all the things that were said could never happen, like getting Turkey to shun NATO. Turkey and Russia will be announcing more joint military exercises probably before the end of this year.

s7ryf3925pivug

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Triumphant attitudes about American exceptionalism are far more common. I just think it's nice to see Putin rattle some cages as he goes around doing all the things that were said could never happen, like getting Turkey to shun NATO. Turkey and Russia will be announcing more joint military exercises probably before the end of this year.

Russia is aggressive to European countries as far west as the UK. The USA has a defensive alliance with many European countries specifically formed to counter Aggressive Russian expansion into Europe.

I'll leave it at that because writing this gives me that feeling of being kicked in the brain.

Jimmy Garlic

Ian Thundering Shrimp wrote: »

Russia is aggressive to European countries as far west as the UK. The USA has a defensive alliance with many European countries specifically formed to counter Aggressive Russian expansion into Europe.

What nonsense, balderdash. Responsive not aggressive. How would the US feel if an anti-US coup was staged in Canada? The "freedom and democracy" spiel wore thin years ago buddy, nobody belives that baloney anymore.

Jimmy Garlic

Ian Thundering Shrimp wrote: »

Russia is aggressive to European countries as far west as the UK. The USA has a defensive alliance with many European countries specifically formed to counter Aggressive Russian expansion into Europe.

What nonsense, balderdash. Responsive not aggressive. How would the US feel if an anti-US coup was staged in Canada? The "freedom and democracy" spiel wore thin years ago buddy, nobody belives that baloney anymore.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Overheal wrote: »

"A million dollars but..."

- Peace in the Middle East

- But they're all allied with Ex-KGB led Russia

Ex-KGB led is some kind of American trope. W Bush was ex CIA

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Ian Thundering Shrimp wrote: »

Russia is aggressive to European countries as far west as the UK. The USA has a defensive alliance with many European countries specifically formed to counter Aggressive Russian expansion into Europe.

I'll leave it at that because writing this gives me that feeling of being kicked in the brain.

The whole schripol incident is still very odd.

Russia isn’t any kind of threat to Europe. We’re told that it’s a tiny economy, smaller than Italy, nearing bankrupty and at the same time a major threat to a major military alliance.

The US has proven itself a threat to Europe though, by destabilising the region. If Assad was overthrown the refugee crisis would be overwhelming.

Donald Trump

Ian Thundering Shrimp wrote: »

Russia is aggressive to European countries as far west as the UK.

At least they know not to bite off more than they can chew and try to fuck with Paddy and his two-boat-navy!

SexBobomb

Donald Trump wrote: »

At least they know not to bite off more than they can chew and try to fuck with Paddy and his two-boat-navy!

We got a second boat ?

riffmongous

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

The whole schripol incident is still very odd.

Russia isn’t any kind of threat to Europe. We’re told that it’s a tiny economy, smaller than Italy, nearing bankrupty and at the same time a major threat to a major military alliance.

The US has proven itself a threat to Europe though, by destabilising the region. If Assad was overthrown the refugee crisis would be overwhelming.

Can't we just say they are both threats?

Overheal

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Ex-KGB led is some kind of American trope. W Bush was ex CIA

That’s wildly glossing over what the KGB was and is.

s7ryf3925pivug

Soviet doctrine was to seek to rapidly occupy western Europe in the event of conventional war breaking out. The Warsaw Pact forces were significantly greater in number than NATO and were capable of assembling more quickly, though less diverse and technologically sophisticated. It seems like the Warsaw Pact would probably have won a conventional war in Europe.

Jimmy Garlic

Overheal wrote: »

That’s wildly glossing over what the KGB was and is.

Is??
The KGB hasn't been around since November 91.

Jimmy Garlic

Ian Thundering Shrimp wrote: »

Soviet doctrine was to seek to rapidly occupy western Europe in the event of conventional war breaking out. The Warsaw Pact forces were significantly greater in number than NATO and were capable of assembling more quickly, though less diverse and technologically sophisticated. It seems like the Warsaw Pact would probably have won a conventional war in Europe.

There would have been a nuclear exchange. It was estimated that after the exchange Warsaw pact forces would have been at the Rhine in seven days and the channel in ten. Britain would have capitulated and accepted limited occupation in exchange for limited self governance under supervised administration.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Ian Thundering Shrimp wrote: »

Soviet doctrine was to seek to rapidly occupy western Europe in the event of conventional war breaking out. The Warsaw Pact forces were significantly greater in number than NATO and were capable of assembling more quickly, though less diverse and technologically sophisticated. It seems like the Warsaw Pact would probably have won a conventional war in Europe.

Yes they were deep into Europe. Central Europe really as Berlin is dead centre. All they had to do to get to the Atlantic was defeat west Germany and France. Without the deterrence of nuclear bombs they might have tried. Now Russia is 1,500 kilometres further east, poorer than Italy, and the panic is greater.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Overheal wrote: »

That’s wildly glossing over what the KGB was and is.

You need to look into the CIA and it’s pattern of destabilising the world. Arguably the Steele dossier was an attempted interference in the US, so they’ve probably interfered everywhere including the US.

And while political prisoners do in fact die in Russia, Epstein didn’t kill himself.

TheValeyard

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

There would have been a nuclear exchange. It was estimated that after the exchange Warsaw pact forces would have been at the Rhine in seven days and the channel in ten. Britain would have capitulated and accepted limited occupation in exchange for limited self governance under supervised administration.

Yeah, I'm going to say, no.

riffmongous

Ian Thundering Shrimp wrote: »

Soviet doctrine was to seek to rapidly occupy western Europe in the event of conventional war breaking out. The Warsaw Pact forces were significantly greater in number than NATO and were capable of assembling more quickly, though less diverse and technologically sophisticated. It seems like the Warsaw Pact would probably have won a conventional war in Europe.

I think the opinions seem to depend on when.. most projections I've read about a war in the 80s have the WP getting hammered after they made their initial gains

s7ryf3925pivug

Their plan for non-conventional war was not to directly attack Britain or France at all to avoid retaliatory nuclear strikes. They had a plan to move as far west as the Rhine with tactical nuclear strikes on major cities as a main component.

The main reason capturing West Germany would have been decisive was because of NATO's policy of forward defence, which meant they would deploy as much 9f their forces as possible as far east as possible. This was to attempt to avoid massive civilian casualties that would have been involved in a gradual advance across the continent.

There is no panic at all. Overall I think people are too complacent or apologistic regarding Russia as a threat. The concerns were far greater with the USSR. Gorbachev had policies of peace and openness which deescalated things substantially. The Eastern Bloc countries were able to have revolutions because he explicitly said there would not be a military response from the USSR if they did so. Compare that leader with Putin who has actively attacked European nations and escalated nuclear arms development. Not to mention major cyber attacks on the USA and the UK, or assassinations. He's extremely aggressive but highly reserved and calculating, which is a dangerous combination.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Ian Thundering Shrimp wrote: »

Their plan for non-conventional war was not to directly attack Britain or France at all to avoid retaliatory nuclear strikes. They had a plan to move as far west as the Rhine with tactical nuclear strikes on major cities as a main component.

The main reason capturing West Germany would have been decisive was because of NATO's policy of forward defence, which meant they would deploy as much 9f their forces as possible as far east as possible. This was to attempt to avoid massive civilian casualties that would have been involved in a gradual advance across the continent.

There is no panic at all. Overall I think people are too complacent or apologistic regarding Russia as a threat. The concerns were far greater with the USSR. Gorbachev had policies of peace and openness which deescalated things substantially. The Eastern Bloc countries were able to have revolutions because he explicitly said there would not be a military response from the USSR if they did so. Compare that leader with Putin who has actively attacked European nations and escalated nuclear arms development. Not to mention major cyber attacks on the USA and the UK, or assassinations. He's extremely aggressive but highly reserved and calculating, which is a dangerous combination.

Gorbachev was the end of the era. He also ran an empire that’s twice the size of Russia. The soviets assassinated dissidents all the time.


Russia has been belligerent with regard to its near abroad where there are historical Russian enclaves. This is no threat to western Europe whatsoever.

US belligerence is a threat to the stability of Europe.

Mad_maxx

Ian Thundering Shrimp wrote: »

Soviet doctrine was to seek to rapidly occupy western Europe in the event of conventional war breaking out. The Warsaw Pact forces were significantly greater in number than NATO and were capable of assembling more quickly, though less diverse and technologically sophisticated. It seems like the Warsaw Pact would probably have won a conventional war in Europe.

True but as a result, the Soviets expected things to quickly escalate to nuclear, western Europe had no other option?

Mad_maxx

I also don't believe that Russia is a threat to Western Europe, it's military budget is dwarfed by that of the EU, never mind NATO, Russia is always on the mind of the usa however, they want all potential rivals weakened

s7ryf3925pivug

They interfered in the Brexit vote. Brexit is doing no favours for the prestige of the UK, and will do no favours for its economy or for ours. It is also destabilizing NI.

Not sure why only Western Europe countries matter to you in any case. Russia belligerence towards their old enclaves is a big deal. Plenty of EU states were once behind the Iron Curtain and at least three of them were part of the USSR.

Jimmy Garlic

Ian Thundering Shrimp wrote: »

They interfered in the Brexit vote. Brexit is doing no favours for the prestige of the UK, and will do no favours for its economy or for ours. It is also destabilizing NI.

I wish they would interfere here, maybe their omnipotence could get rid of the century old FFG revolving door. Seriously though, you think brexit is the work of Russia? Nothing at all to do with millions of disenfranchised brits ?

Limpy

Ian Thundering Shrimp wrote: »

They interfered in the Brexit vote. Brexit is doing no favours for the prestige of the UK, and will do no favours for its economy or for ours. It is also destabilizing NI.

Not sure why only Western Europe countries matter to you in any case. Russia belligerence towards their old enclaves is a big deal. Plenty of EU states were once behind the Iron Curtain and at least three of them were part of the USSR.

Not that long ago the yanks we're monitoring Merkals phone. Your brain washed by Western media to blame Russia for everything. Take off your blinkers.

s7ryf3925pivug

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

I wish they would interfere here, maybe their omnipotence could get rid of the century old FFG revolving door. Seriously though, you think brexit is the work of Russia? Nothing at all to do with millions of disenfranchised brits ?

disenfranchised how? I'm related to multiple brexit voters and they're not disenfranchised, just buying into utter bull****.

Not the work of Russia as you put it but it is a fact that they ran social media campaigns via fake accounts to promote it. It seems highly likely they financed it as well

s7ryf3925pivug

Limpy wrote: »

Not that long ago the yanks we're monitoring Merkals phone. Your brain washed by Western media to blame Russia for everything. Take off your blinkers.

"fake news"?
The USA spying on Europe is not relevant to Russian activity one way or another.

Limpy

Ian Thundering Shrimp wrote: »

"fake news"?
The USA spying on Europe is not relevant to Russian activity one way or another.

Not to the brain washed anyway.

robindch

More related to Putin than Edogan - but earlier in the week, there was an explosion at a facility in Moscow which builds "defences against bacteriological and biological weapons". Luckily, the Kremlin was able to confirm that the explosion didn't cause any damage at all and everything was really quite excellent, thanks for asking.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49727101

In completely unrelated news, the Kremlin announced yesterday that the US is working on variations of the Plague in order to create antibiotic-resistant biological weapons, including at facilities very close to Russian borders.

https://tass.ru/politika/6911062 (in Russian)