Napoleon

Montage of Feck

No I'm not claiming to be him, but what would Europe be like today if he hadn't surrended at Waterloo?

Obviously Abba wouldn't have had a hit with waterloo.

EmmetSpiceland

Dynamite.

kneemos

We'd be speaking french.

We wouldn't have a clichéd expression.

Roger Hassenforder

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Dynamite.

We'd all be absolute tossers. Despised throughout the developed world.

Although, if he didnt surrender there, knowing their penchant for cheese eating and surrendering, it would have come sooner rather than later.

Hande hoche!

Macron would have lost the last election to Gerard Depardieu.

RobbingBandit

Would have been a European uprising Prussia would have kicked his derriere Russia Austria Hungary The Dutch and The English royals would have kicked theirs and World War 1 would have been a century earlier with Spain and the yanks joining in to create a massive endless war halting the Industrial Revolution in its tracks as the inventors would be making weapons for their respective nation states.

I'd guess the fall of the monarchy wouldn't happen to the extent that it did and whichever side won would lord over the peasants for a very long time which would probably be the mad age of enlightenment calendar.

Montage of Feck

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

We'd all be absolute tossers. Despised throughout the developed world.

Although, if he didnt surrender there, knowing their penchant for cheese eating and surrendering, it would have come sooner rather than later.

The French have won more battles than any other nation.

corner of hells

We wouldn't have had Napoleon Brandy.
Wellington Brandy just doesn't sound right.

endacl

We would have Napoleon Boots though. That'd be cool.

corner of hells

Montage of Feck wrote: »

The French have won more battles than any other nation.

I've a French Lebel rifle from the First World War.
Never fired , just a bit of damage from when it was dropped.

Naggdefy

Montage of Feck wrote: »

The French have won more battles than any other nation.

And Napoleon has won many more battles than any other general and his percentage win v loss is highest.

A truly remarkable genius in so many ways. Bicentenary of his death 5.49am May 5th 2021. Vive l'Emperor!

Tony EH

Montage of Feck wrote: »

No I'm not claiming to be him, but what would Europe be like today if he hadn't surrended at Waterloo?

Pretty much the same.

If Wellington and Blucher had been defeated, it really wouldn't have made that much difference. The armies of Russia and Austria outnumbered Nappy's armies and they were intent on getting rid of him one way or another.

In short, Napoleon's days were numbered, whether Waterloo was lost or not.

SnazzyPig

Great video here -

One a wishful thinking waffler, the other arguing against his own class and natural instincts.

Tony EH

SnazzyPig wrote: »

Great video here -

Watched that a while age. Zamoyski fails miserably to provide a convincing argument.

SnazzyPig

Tony EH wrote: »

Watched that a while age. Zamoyski fails miserably to provide a convincing argument.

Zamoyski doesn't engage with the proposition even.

archer22

corner of hells wrote: »

I've a French Lebel rifle from the First World War.
Never fired , just a bit of damage from when it was dropped.

If you think Frenchmen can't fight, then you need to read up on the french Charlemagne Division that served in the German army during world war two.

They were the most ferocious fighters in the Battle of Berlin.

Ipso

corner of hells wrote: »

I've a French Lebel rifle from the First World War.
Never fired , just a bit of damage from when it was dropped.

Strange that a country that just saw some of the worse aspects of WW1 not even a generation before were reluctant to get into another world war.
Of course one of the hilarious aspects of the surrender monkey meme is that it really got going after France didn't join in the iraq war, then you had the freedom fries and other such nonsense. This was mainly driven by people who then turned around and voted for someone who called the Iraq War a disaster.

corner of hells

archer22 wrote: »

If you think Frenchmen can't fight, then you need to read up on the french Charlemagne Division that served in the German army during world war two.

They were the most ferocious fighters in the Battle of Berlin.

I am , of course joking.

corner of hells

Ipso wrote: »

Strange that a country that just saw some of the worse aspects of WW1 not even a generation before were reluctant to get into another world war.
Of course one of the hilarious aspects of the surrender monkey meme is that it really got going after France didn't join in the iraq war, then you had the freedom fries and other such nonsense. This was mainly driven by people who then turned around and voted for someone who called the Iraq War a disaster.

I appreciate what you're saying , I'm joking with the post.

Tuco88

Surrender monkeys??? The French and Verdun? It was like Stalingrad...

Montage of Feck

Montage of Feck wrote: »

No I'm not claiming to be him, but what would Europe be like today if he hadn't surrended at Waterloo?

Obviously Abba wouldn't have had a hit with waterloo.

Is this post really a request for somebody to post why Napoleon is, far and away, the most influential European of the past 500 or even 1000 years? That he was in essence the cause of the creation of most modern European states? And the founder of the most common legal system on the planet, the civil code/Napoleonic code? And the key factor in an enormous plethora of modernisation of the emerging European states, armies and nationalisms? Would these have emerged to unify without his existence? Most of his influence is a consequence of reaction to him rather than of his intentions.

As for Waterloo, the supposedly "decisive British victory" over Napoleon in 1815. Despite the British nationalist propaganda, only one-third of Wellington's troops actually came from the then UK - the majority of his "British" force was composed of German speakers/soldiers from the German states. On top of that, some 50,000 more soldiers were part of the Prussian Army at Waterloo. A mere 73,000 were on Napoleon's side in Waterloo, with a combined 118,000 soldiers against him.

In contrast, some 700,000 soldiers were in Napoleon's Grande Armée that invaded Russia in 1812, at the time the largest military invasion in recorded history. They faced some 500,000 Russian troops, or some 900,000 including militia at its peak. Waterloo is just another example of the distorted perspective of history which Irish people are given by virtue of being anglocentric/soaking up their media and myths.

Míshásta

Montage of Feck wrote: »

what would Europe be like today if he hadn't surrended at Waterloo?

He didn't surrender at Waterloo, he lost the battle.

He surrendered nearly a month after the battle to the Captain of the HMS Bellerophon off the French coast.

RhubarbCrumble

I've got bloody 'Waterloo' stuck in my head now. Cheers for that OP!

Montage of Feck

So your telling me Abba lied in their song?

gitane007

No idea what Europe would be like ...........but i always thought Marshall Ney lost the battle of Waterloo for the French by exhausting and pretty much destroying the Cavalry after sending it against the Squares repeatedly. I'd say Ney was suffering from PTSD or some **** after the Retreat from Russia a few years earlier , he lost his cool and went into Rambo mode , kinda like Hitler during the last few days in his bunker. He left Napoleon with no choice other than to throw the imperial gaurd in and hope they could salvage a victory before he legged it.

branie2

The UK would be ruled by France

Montage of Feck

Montage of Feck wrote: »

The French have won more battles than any other nation.

Not the ones that really mattered though

jmayo

archer22 wrote: »

If you think Frenchmen can't fight, then you need to read up on the french Charlemagne Division that served in the German army during world war two.

They were the most ferocious fighters in the Battle of Berlin.

Sorry to divert a little, but a lot of the foreigners in the likes of the Waffen-SS were there because they wanted to be there. They had signed up and had turned their backs on their own states and fellow citizens.
And they knew when the end came they had no where to go.

After the war a fair few of them joined French Foreign Legion as way out of Europe.
Thinking about it the Vietnamese probably got rid of some distinctly unsavoury characters that had escaped justice and were too low in rank to ever have been picked up in Nuremberg trials.

Thelonious Monk

Naggdefy wrote: »

And Napoleon has won many more battles than any other general and his percentage win v loss is highest.

A truly remarkable genius in so many ways. Bicentenary of his death 5.49am May 5th 2021. Vive l'Emperor!

Josephine still f*cked around on him tho

Prince Andrew

My daddy told me that if weren't for the tenacity of the Duke of Wellington all may have been lost.

My daddy told me that the Duke was a vicious bastard from Ireland who had already massacred thousands of Indians and was erstwhile, tempered and fanatical with the sword. He drank a bottle of wine every day and only ate cold meat and bread.

Whilst I trained as a cadet with the Royal Navy my commanding officer told me that even had Napolean defeated the Duke at Waterloo it is highly likely that the Navy would have scuppered his plan to lay siege to England. Lord Nelson would have seen to his imminent demise.

I also heard that he was very small narcissistic homophobe who was prone to bouts of depression and slept alot. He was fond of the fairer sex and was known to engage in prolific sexual encounters with women whilst not defeating foreign armies on the dark fields of battle. He was vertically challenged and suffered from small man syndrome. He even arrested the Pope.

I would imagine the invention of the helicopter would have had a more significant impact on the development of Europe after the end of the second world war. The first helicopters were invented in 1936, during the reign of Adolf Hitler in Germany, where my great grandfather is from. My great uncle used to like him and they used to attend the same parties and share mistresses.

jmayo

Prince Andrew wrote: »

My daddy told me that if weren't for the tenacity of the Duke of Wellington all may have been lost.

My daddy told me that the Duke was a vicious bastard from Ireland who had already massacred thousands of Indians and was erstwhile, tempered and fanatical with the sword. He drank a bottle of wine every day and only ate cold meat and bread.

Whilst I trained as a cadet with the Royal Navy my commanding officer told me that even had Napolean defeated the Duke at Waterloo it is highly likely that the Navy would have scuppered his plan to lay siege to England. Lord Nelson would have seen to his imminent demise.

Nelson would have been doing very well to have stopped Napolean in 1815 seen as he was dead since 1805.

Prince Andrew wrote: »

I also heard that he was very small narcissistic homophobe who was prone to bouts of depression and slept alot. He was fond of the fairer sex and was known to engage in prolific sexual encounters with women whilst not defeating foreign armies on the dark fields of battle. He was vertically challenged and suffered from small man syndrome. He even arrested the Pope.

So he was a good judge of character then.

Prince Andrew wrote: »

The first helicopters were invented in 1936, during the reign of Adolf Hitler in Germany, where my great grandfather is from. My great uncle used to like him and they used to attend the same parties and share mistresses.

Not that subtle.
PS I thought your great uncle shared with the ambassador ?

Conall Cernach

gitane007 wrote: »

No idea what Europe would be like ...........but i always thought Marshall Ney lost the battle of Waterloo for the French by exhausting and pretty much destroying the Cavalry after sending it against the Squares repeatedly. I'd say Ney was suffering from PTSD or some **** after the Retreat from Russia a few years earlier , he lost his cool and went into Rambo mode , kinda like Hitler during the last few days in his bunker. He left Napoleon with no choice other than to throw the imperial gaurd in and hope they could salvage a victory before he legged it.

I always thought that a few guns on the left would have pulverised those squares for Ney. You've got to wonder why he didn't call some up. It is said that Napoleon didn't know what was happening on that flank due to a case of piles (sometimes it's the runs) keeping him from riding round the battlefield.

RhubarbCrumble

jmayo wrote: »

PS I thought your great uncle shared with the ambassador ?

Shared his Ferrero Rocher?

Naggdefy

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Josephine still f*cked around on him tho

She was 8 years older and indeed she did Hyppolite Charles etc. But Napoleon was the one in control in the end.

Naggdefy

Waterloo is pretty irrelevant. France was out of man and horse power. Defeat was inevitable.

The Russian campaign was the end. Like Stalingrad for Hitler in WW2. The Germans fought on for 2 years but the game was up.

Wellington was a dour defensive general, superb on the defensive but no match for Napoleon's flair in attacking strategy in his hayday.

English propaganda really painted Bonaparte as the small man etc. He was 5ft 2in in old French measurement. 5ft 6in in standard measurement, average for his day.

Your Face

This is untrue but apparently he could bench 207kg.

Cheerful Spring2

Montage of Feck wrote: »

No I'm not claiming to be him, but what would Europe be like today if he hadn't surrended at Waterloo?

Obviously Abba wouldn't have had a hit with waterloo.

Napoleon lost the war in Russia. The Russians outsmarted him by burning down Moscow and he was forced to retreat losing most of the Grande Armée due to the harsh winter.

A win at waterloo would only protect, the northern French flank for a time. Prussia, Austria- Hungry, and Russia and England given time would gather more armies and attack Napoleon again.

Hitler made the same mistake when he attacked the Soviet Union and effectively ended any hope he win WW2.

storker

Prince Andrew wrote: »

Whilst I trained as a cadet with the Royal Navy my commanding officer told me that even had Napolean defeated the Duke at Waterloo it is highly likely that the Navy would have scuppered his plan to lay siege to England. Lord Nelson would have seen to his imminent demise.

You have to take your hat off to Nelson, seeing as he was nearly 10 years dead when Waterloo was fought.

Naggdefy

storker wrote: »

You have to take your hat off to Nelson, seeing as he was nearly 10 years dead when Waterloo was fought.

I heard they had a battalion of ironsides under Oliver Cromwell on board the navy.

Naggdefy

Your Face wrote: »

This is untrue but apparently he could bench 207kg.

No Nelson suffered from cruciate ligament problems, which had no fix at the time.

storker

Naggdefy wrote: »

Wellington was a dour defensive general, superb on the defensive but no match for Napoleon's flair in attacking strategy in his hayday.

To be fair to Wellington, he had a small army and had to be careful with it. But he could still attack briskly when he saw an opportunity, as Marshal Marmont found out at Salamanca in 1812.

Naggdefy

storker wrote: »

To be fair to Wellington, he had a small army and had to be careful with it. But he could still attack briskly when he saw an opportunity, as Marshal Marmont found out at Salamanca in 1812.

No Austerlitz though Bit of a wannabe trying to bed women Napoleon was with and keep souvenirs of his belongings. Not in the same league as regards law making, administration, political vision as Bonaparte also. As Wellington said himself Napoleon was worth 10,000 men on the battlefield.

storker

Conall Cernach wrote: »

I always thought that a few guns on the left would have pulverised those squares for Ney. You've got to wonder why he didn't call some up. It is said that Napoleon didn't know what was happening on that flank due to a case of piles (sometimes it's the runs) keeping him from riding round the battlefield.

It was said that Ney had a habit of forgetting about everything except the units in front of him. He seems to have suffered a bit from the "red mist" when in battle, when not in battle, though he was more mercurial. His rash attacks at Waterloo (which may in fact have been authorised by Napoleon perhaps hoping for a rerun of Murat's charge at Eylau) contrasts with his inactivity on the morning of Quatre Bras, two days previously.

Some of this has been put down to post-Russia PTSD, but six years before that, at Jena, Ney's corps had to be rescued by Lannes after Ney charged it headlong into the battle and was nearly cut off by the Prussians.

Regarding the Waterloo cavalry charges, yes something went wrong somewhere with the failure to employ infantry and/or artillery support, and I'm not a Napoleon-basher (the most vitriolic of whom appear to be English, in my experience), but Napoleon was in charge on the day, and if it had been a victory he wouldn't have been slow to claim the credit, so ultimately the buck stop with him. He knew Ney was no Davout and worked best when on short leash but appears to have given him a lot of slack anyway.

storker

Naggdefy wrote: »

Bit of a wannabe trying to bed women Napoleon was with

Apparently Wellington bedded both of Napoleons ex-mistresses. As one writer put it, "...one could be put down to coincidence, but two smacks of triumphalism."

Jacovs

corner of hells wrote: »

We wouldn't have had Napoleon Brandy.
Wellington Brandy just doesn't sound right.

Ummmmmmm

Cheerful Spring2

storker wrote: »

To be fair to Wellington, he had a small army and had to be careful with it. But he could still attack briskly when he saw an opportunity, as Marshal Marmont found out at Salamanca in 1812.

Wellington and Blücher' armies were in full retreat. Waterloo was a stand your ground battle. There had been many short battles leading up to this decisive battle, all won by the French till then. Napoleon main aim was to split the armies in two and was successful. Wellington was left on his own. Napoleon unsure of where Blucher retreating army went, send a third of his army or half of it,' can't remember exactly to chase down the Prussians and stop them from linking up again at Waterloo. Napoleon would have been successful if the weather conditions were good, there was heavy rain for a few days, so he had to delay the attack, and was unable to attack Wellington and use his heavy cannons to take out Wellington main lines of defence.. The Prussians on battle day gave the French the slip and managed to get to the battle to help Wellington when he needed them most. Napoleon was down a third of his army when the Prussians arrived and was game over for him. His flank was exposed and they broke.

Just as a follow up. I finished that book, Napoleon by Christopher J. Herold and towards the end while discussing Napoleon's final days I came across this 'Barry Lyndon' moment:

"Apart from this handful of companions and his servants... Napoleon's only regular company consisted of Dr. Barry O'Meara, an Irishman who had been a surgeon in the British navy and who was assigned to Napoleon as a personal physician."

I had never heard of him, but it appears O'Meara became quite famous. There's even a 2008 book by Hubert O'Connor entitled, The Emperor and the Irishman: Napoleon and Dr Barry O'Meara on St Helena.

In 1822, O'Meara, published his own 2-volume account of Napoleon's life on St Helena: Napoleon in Exile: Or, A Voice from St. Helena. The Opinions and Reflections of Napoleon on the Most Important Events of His Life and Government in His Own Words

Despite the Tipperary surname O'Meara, [url=according to this source, was born in "Co. Cork", but this source says he was born in Co. Dublin and is much more specific:

Barry Edward O’Meara was born in Newtownpark House, Newtownpark Avenue, Blackrock (then Newtown-on-Sea) in Co. Dublin in 1784. He studied medicine at Trinity College Dublin and also at the Royal College of Surgeons. He qualified in 1804 and joined the army in Dublin as a surgeon. O’Meara served in Egypt, Sicily and Southern Italy during the Napoleonic wars. During his time in Italy he was dismissed from the army because of his involvement in a duel...

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just as a follow up. I finished that book, Napoleon by Christopher J. Herold and towards the end while discussing Napoleon's final days I came across this 'Barry Lyndon' moment:

"Apart from this handful of companions and his servants... Napoleon's only regular company consisted of Dr. Barry O'Meara, an Irishman who had been a surgeon in the British navy and who was assigned to Napoleon as a personal physician."

I had never heard of him, but it appears O'Meara became quite famous. There's even a 2008 book by Hubert O'Connor entitled, The Emperor and the Irishman: Napoleon and Dr Barry O'Meara on St Helena.

In 1822, O'Meara, published his own 2-volume account of Napoleon's life on St Helena: Napoleon in Exile: Or, A Voice from St. Helena. The Opinions and Reflections of Napoleon on the Most Important Events of His Life and Government in His Own Words:

The surgeon on HMS Victory, who tended Nelson, was an Irishman as well.

storker

Deleted User wrote: »

Just as a follow up. I finished that book, Napoleon by Christopher J. Herold...

I'd heard of O'Meara a few times but didn't know anything about him. I'm currently reading Adam Zamoyski's biography of Napoleon which is good so far, even though he hasn't even got to Toulon yet. Zamoyski's "1812: Napoleon's Fatal March on Moscow" is excellent, and a must-read for anyone interested in the 1812 campaign in Russia.

While we're on the subject of Irish connections...Napoleon's Irish Legion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Legion



The image shows two members of the Irish Legion in Spain 1810-1812, on the left is a volltiguer (light infantry) and on the right a grenadier (elite infantry). The regiment was designated as light infantry, so strictly speaking the grenadier should be a carabinier, but maybe they didn't use the standard terms for foreign regiments.

odyssey06

Based purely on the TV series Sharpe, Napoleon forgot the cardinal rule ... kill Sean Bean ☺