Irish Forestry Funds Sale

antietam1

Reply from Paul "thank you for your e mail I will be away from the office until the 29th".

athwm

Both the EU and Irish government support forestry by "up to 100%" as well as foregoing any tax on profits. This must surely draw down their wrath if there is any suggestion of sharp practice by any "shrewd operators". I would have thought that any publicity about our miserable treatment is bound to be picked up by the relevent authorities.

nerine

I still think all we can do is highlight this with the media (i.e. Irish Independent in light of articles re/windfalls & bonanzas) referencing poor returns & conflict of interests issues.
There is no legal action that we can pursue as we knew the terms & conditions we signed up to. Regarding contacting Joe Duffy etc I don't think there is a huge amount of sympathy out there for people who can afford to buy shares in the first place. We would be regarded as the well heeled middle class!
Lastly I have just discussed this with a financial head and he didn't hold out much hope for us, citing the fact that we did get some interest albeit less than expected. He more or less said that projections are just that, they are not hard cash.

4Wood

So Ive been following the thread previously posted here in regards to the 3rd Forestry fund the last few weeks after reading about the so called "summer bonanza" and "substantial returns" we would be receiving. So I never really expected to get the returns they initially predicted but to say im not a little bit disappointed with my €1,111.28 (2nd forestry fund) would be a lie.
I will be watching this closely and would be interested to see if there are grounds for any legal action or at least that more insight be given into sale of the entire funds, and to see who lined their pockets with what.

Dermotom22

Cheque for €1,061.65 for 1 share, letter claiming due to Members Voluntary Liquidation.
We were not asked, as members, to liquidate. I remember seeing another Forestry fund management company recently lost a fraud case due to insufficient land and assets purchased.
I’d love to know who bought our forests and for what price. After nearly 20 years and a promise of €20-30k per share, this is far from acceptable.

Anyone any more news or thoughts on taking action?

FFruits

To: 'finance@irishtimes.com' <finance@irishtimes.com>; 'pilita.clark@ft.com' <pilita.clark@ft.com>
Cc: 'newsdesk@irishtimes.com' <newsdesk@irishtimes.com>; 'lettersed@irishtimes.com' <lettersed@irishtimes.com>; 'dlabanyi@irishtimes.com' <dlabanyi@irishtimes.com>
Subject: Deceived?, Dismayed and Baffled Shareholders receive pay-out today for the Irish Forestry Fund Sale

Dear Sir/ Madame
Many of the 12,400 dismayed shareholders received a pay-out this morning after their 30 year investment was prematurely sold after 22 years. Baffled, confused and feeling deceived by the hugely exaggerated returns (14.6% tax free compounded annually *2nd Irish forestry fund) promised to them when they invested their money as far back as 1997, they received on average a mere 2% annualised return over 22 years. Media coverage and public statements of the sale by the directors Trevor Mc Hugh and Paul Brosnan suggested that this premature sale was hugely in the interest of the shareholders.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/single-largest-private-forestry-transaction-in-irish-history-completed

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/forestry-investors-in-line-for-sale-windfall-38124848.html

What shareholders are saying
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=111038604&posted=1#post111038604

Statement currently published on the https://www.irish-forestry.ie
“This is a very positive development for our shareholders, with the portfolio’s value and returns serving as a strong endorsement of the Irish forestry and timber sector. Veon looks forward to playing our part in continuing to grow the national forest estate and helping to further develop the forest industry, which is of critical importance in combatting the effects of climate change.”

Preference Shareholders were kept completely in the dark regarding all transactions with AXA Investments and Veon, independently advised by Deloitte, solicitors involved were Lacy Walsh solicitors and Eversheds Sutherland.

I think it reasonable to say shareholders are very angry and have a lot of unanswered questions which need answered. People were duped into thinking this would help with college funds for their children, contribute to future pensions and be a windfall return on €30,000* odd euro on a €620* investment after 30 years.( *approximate rounded figures).

The misinformation and hype ( suggesting a windfall “summer bonanza for shareholders” The Independent) (“positive development for investors” The Directors) surrounding this transaction are to say the least, dubious. Taking into account the Irish Government put grants into this to pay for planting on top of shareholders money!!, a payout on one share £500PUNTS (approx. €620) after 22 years in the second Irish forestry fund of €1111.28 is NOT in the interest of ANY shareholders. I think the average tax payer would be very interested in an explanation let alone the shareholders! To add to this, there has been no public announcement or communication to shareholders the exact % return they were to receive. After discussing with many likeminded, angry shareholders today on a forum online there does not seem to uniformity in the cheque amounts issued this morning.

To add to this Paul Brosnan and Trevor McHugh the directors of the recently sold Irish Forestry Fund have now been retained to manage the fund after the sale to AXA. This leads me to question why on earth would AXA retain two people who grossly failed shareholders after 22 years?

There is a dark deceptive undercurrent here which needs to be investigated. Surely Paul Brosnan and Trevor McHugh who are probably weighed down by their very heavy pockets should sink to the bottom of the pond and certainly not float to the top. Does this not ring alarm bells? It does for me and 12,400 other shareholders. I’m sure AXA investors will be happy to see that the people who had failed to even double the ROI over a 20 year period are now in charge of their investment.

With the large reputable companies involved I expect at least a public response to shareholders explaining where the money went and why so little?.

The directors, Paul Brosnan and Trevor McHugh may have the pleasure of announcing, “This is a very positive development for our shareholders”, but I think the pleasure may be all theirs or someone elses ? but certainly not remotely a pleasure to investors!

If you would be so kind as to investigate further and or publish this information on our behalf we would be incredibly grateful.

Kind Regards
Aoife – a preference shareholder from Dublin.

Davo222

nerine wrote: »

I still think all we can do is highlight this with the media (i.e. Irish Independent in light of articles re/windfalls & bonanzas) referencing poor returns & conflict of interests issues.
There is no legal action that we can pursue as we knew the terms & conditions we signed up to. Regarding contacting Joe Duffy etc I don't think there is a huge amount of sympathy out there for people who can afford to buy shares in the first place. We would be regarded as the well heeled middle class!
Lastly I have just discussed this with a financial head and he didn't hold out much hope for us, citing the fact that we did get some interest albeit less than expected. He more or less said that projections are just that, they are not hard cash.

I phoned independent this morning and left a message for the reporter who wrote the article relating to the great returns, haven't heard back.

athwm

Just for the record, my returns per share on four schemes were:

IR£500 per share
4th Fund (8/12/98) €1,096.90
5th Fund (11/6/99) €1,061.65

€750 per share
7th Fund (8/7/09) €1,411.81
11th Fund (13/5/11) €1,437.98

I expect these amounts match what other 'lucky' punters received.

FFruits

Where did people read that AXA investments are retaining Paul Brosnan and Trevor McHugh as managers of the fund? Anyone?

Getting an action group together is more newsworthy to journalists. Let us know if that happens

F.Grimes

FFruits wrote: »

Where did people read that AXA investments are retaining Paul Brosnan and Trevor McHugh as managers of the fund? Anyone?

Getting an action group together is more newsworthy to journalists. Let us know if that happens

Goes into the matter here. There is also about 6 complying reasons giving as to why the investment was set to make money over the next 10yrs.

nerine

athwm wrote: »

Just for the record, my returns per share on four schemes were:

IR£500 per share
4th Fund (8/12/98) €1,096.90
5th Fund (11/6/99) €1,061.65

€750 per share
7th Fund (8/7/09) €1,411.81
11th Fund (13/5/11) €1,437.98

I expect these amounts match what other 'lucky' punters received.

I assume that you are not referring to the 7th & 11th growth plan as I received 1078.49 & 1078.49 respectively for my shares in those two plans!

Tow

It is in Veon's own press release: https://www.veon.ie/veon-concludes-largest-private-sale-of-forestry-in-irish-history/

Christophe Lebrun, head of forestry at Axa IM Real Assets, said the portfolio had an attractive income profile for its investors. Veon will continue to provide forestry management services on the portfolio.

Veon and IFF share the same Directors and address etc. So you can make yours own conclusions...

TradeGenetics

Any guys set up group and pool funds to get legal advice. I’m good for €500

FFruits

This doesn’t say Paul & Trevor are managers or directors at Veon are they?

antietam1

FFruits wrote: »

Where did people read that AXA investments are retaining Paul Brosnan and Trevor McHugh as managers of the fund? Anyone?

Getting an action group together is more newsworthy to journalists. Let us know if that happens

Paul is with Veon who are going to "carry on" managing for Axa.

Robodoc

FFruits wrote: »

This doesn’t say Paul & Trevor are managers or directors at Veon are they?

If you go to Veon.ie and go down to their management team on the menu you will find some lovely smiling photos of the team

FFruits

So latest info is Veon will provide forestry mgt technical services, as opposed to being the asset manager. That’s their spiel anyway and they’re sticking to it. 🙄😡

Bloody chancers.

Robodoc

FFruits wrote: »

This doesn’t say Paul & Trevor are managers or directors at Veon are they?

If you go to veon.ie, hit the menu option at the top of the page, scroll down to management team and there are some lovely smiling pictures of the boys and their current job descriptions

Tow

As is Trevor

FFruits

I’m off to spend mine next week on school uniforms and a few weeks grocery shopping &#55357;&#56866;

Aisling Murphy

FFruits wrote: »

Where did people read that AXA investments are retaining Paul Brosnan and Trevor McHugh as managers of the fund? Anyone?

Getting an action group together is more newsworthy to journalists. Let us know if that happens

I went to Veon office in Sandyford this morning and it was confirmed to me by Admin manager Gavin Murray that The Managing Director is Trevor McHugh And Paul Brosnan the director of the forestry funds is now the Marketing Director of Veon who have taken over our forestry investments. This is a clear conflict of interest. We need action.

Aisling Murphy

TradeGenetics wrote: »

Any guys set up group and pool funds to get legal advice. I’m good for €500

Count me in for same amount

okidoki987

Aisling Murphy wrote: »

I went to Veon office in Sandyford this morning and it was confirmed to me by Admin manager Gavin Murray that The Managing Director is Trevor McHugh And Paul Brosnan the director of the forestry funds is now the Marketing Director of Veon who have taken over our forestry investments. This is a clear conflict of interest. We need action.

Absolutely correct.
How can 2 people who work for a company which sells the assets for xyz to another company and then go and work for the new owners and claim there is no conflict of interest.

athwm

Sorry Nerine my bad.
7th and 11th Funds returned €1,058.86 and €1,078.49) respectively.

nerine

I've looked up the dates of those two funds 7th & 11th & they are the same growth plans but with very different outcomes. Can I ask if you had a lot of shares in those two funds I had only two in each & could this account for the very different pay out per share? I received €1078.49 per share for the 7th and also €1078.49 for the 11th not €1411.81 & €1437.98 which is some difference

nerine

Phew!

Just joined

Does anyone know why the 3rd fund (€1313) paid out more then the 2nd fund (€1111), longer term same £500 investment?

athwm

I corrected my errors which show similar amounts to yours, Nerine. I actually received less than you for 7th Fund

Davo222

TradeGenetics wrote: »

Any guys set up group and pool funds to get legal advice. I’m good for €500

Count me in .

nerine

Sorry my mistake there Athwm, the 7th paid €1058.86 same as yours & the 11th paid €1078.49.

sue97

Does anyone have an email address for the company. I got nothing in the post again today

nerine

Veon Ltd.
1 Leopardstown Business Centre,
Leopardstown,
Dublin 18
Free Phone: 1800 719 399

okidoki987

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/cantillon/investors-in-irish-forestry-learn-money-doesn-t-grow-on-trees-1.3993293

Let's hope this is the start of it.

okidoki987

Anybody know what the returns were for

"The Forestry Investment Plans – these were ten year forestry funds (all of which have now matured)"
&
"The Forestry Growth Plans – these are twelve year forestry funds specifically designed to take full advantage of the benefits of investing into semi-mature forestry".

nerine

okidoki987 wrote: »

Anybody know what the returns were for

"The Forestry Investment Plans – these were ten year forestry funds (all of which have now matured)"
&
"The Forestry Growth Plans – these are twelve year forestry funds specifically designed to take full advantage of the benefits of investing into semi-mature forestry".

The following are the share amounts I received for the Forestry Growth Plans
6th growth plan = 1106.35
7th growth plan = 1058.86
8th growth plan = 1090.84
9th growth plan = 1049.15
10th growth plan = 1094.28
11th growth plan = 1078.49
12th growth plan - 1071.26

older i get better i was

OK some folks won't like this but it's my take, I dipped my toe also but paid no heed to the figures spun at the outset as I thought they were off the wall, I done it as a punt and reckoned at worst I'd get my outlay back, so the few hundred I'm getting is way more than I would have gotten had the funds been sitting on deposit in a bank. I've no background what's so ever in finance but used to browse the annual literature when it ever arrived, it basically spun a negative tale year after year and from the bits I thought I could understand the figures seemed to reflect this too.
The fact that some directors have moved from Irish forrestry to veon seems to stink to high heaven but knowing the way these fly by nights operate its no surprise and is probably legal. No doubt if folks go after these carpet baggers they will be told investments can fall as well as rise etc and that the investments didn't reach maturity before being sold (even if sold for spurious reasons). I feel genuinely sorry for investors who were depending on these funds for pensions or educational funds and can only wish people the best of luck if they are going to pursue things legally.

Spain Calling

Feck that. Lets do it and drag these dirtectors through some legal challenge and get their smug smiling faces in the media. Worth 500 euros of my share. Count me in

antietam1

older i get better i was wrote: »

OK some folks won't like this but it's my take, I dipped my toe also but paid no heed to the figures spun at the outset as I thought they were off the wall, I done it as a punt and reckoned at worst I'd get my outlay back, so the few hundred I'm getting is way more than I would have gotten had the funds been sitting on deposit in a bank. I've no background what's so ever in finance but used to browse the annual literature when it ever arrived, it basically spun a negative tale year after year and from the bits I thought I could understand the figures seemed to reflect this too.
The fact that some directors have moved from Irish forrestry to veon seems to stink to high heaven but knowing the way these fly by nights operate its no surprise and is probably legal. No doubt if folks go after these carpet baggers they will be told investments can fall as well as rise etc and that the investments didn't reach maturity before being sold (even if sold for spurious reasons). I feel genuinely sorry for investors who were depending on these funds for pensions or educational funds and can only wish people the best of luck if they are going to pursue things legally.

I cannot agree if it was a punt or a gamble we will never know as it was not completed.
As regards rising and falling Axa seem to be very happy.

Huntw2

Hi, anyone have a phone number to contact them? Cheque missing. Thanks

okidoki987

so the few hundred I'm getting is way more than I would have gotten had the funds been sitting on deposit in a bank.

Don't forget interest rates would have been a lot higher at the early stages of these.

The fact that some directors have moved from Irish forrestry to veon seems to stink to high heaven but knowing the way these fly by nights operate its no surprise and is probably legal.

Not really fly by night as it's 20+ years going

No doubt if folks go after these carpet baggers they will be told investments can fall as well as rise etc and that the investments didn't reach maturity before being sold (even if sold for spurious reasons).

I think the fact that the forests were still going doesn't really allow for the "investments can rise and fall statement".

I feel genuinely sorry for investors who were depending on these funds for pensions or educational funds and can only wish people the best of luck if they are going to pursue things legally.

+1

12,400 investors for an average of €3,500 equates to €43 million odd which is not a small number.

nerine

Veon Ltd.
1 Leopardstown Business Centre,
Leopardstown,
Dublin 18
Free Phone: 1800 719 399

Billyo66

.

nerine

Good article in today's Independent by Charlie Weston

okidoki987

Link
https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/investors-fury-as-forestry-fund-sale-ends-hope-of-hitting-return-targets-38427986.html

okidoki987

Some parts of the article

"Mr McHugh acknowledged that the returns were below expectations, but said there was no way of knowing back in the 1990s that so many factors would depress returns."

Yet he then says

"Asked why many of the funds were not managed out to maturity, he said there was no prospect of a major improvement in the price of wood."

So he can't see into the future in the 1990's but somehow that has changed in 2018/19.
Glad to see he knows what will happen to the price of timber in 10 years time.

He blamed a glut of timber in Europe, low interest rates, the threat of a trade war between the US and China, the impact of the spruce bark beetle, and droughts.
"Since then, we have had the dotcom bubble, the recession, ultra-low inflation, and ECB negative interest rates. We could not have expected to have forecast or projected any of that in the 1990s.

Guess there's nothing left to blame it on after this list of excuses!

He admitted that he and fellow director Paul Brosnan run a company called Veon which will manage the forestry assets sold to Axa, but insisted this would only mean them getting a small fee for woodland management.

Wonder what his idea of small is?
This is also on top of the very substantial fees they got for running the
forestry funds over the last 20 odd years!

okidoki987

Also mentioned here
https://askaboutmoney.com/threads/investment-in-irish-forestry-funds.6699/page-15

Aisling Murphy

Yes, I spoke with Trevor McHugh Managing Director of Veon on 22 August (and made it very clear how angry I am) and the number he called me on was 01 6219406
Let him know how you feel about the paltry sum he sold us all out for, while acting in conflict of our best interests by managing the forestries for Axa via Veon.
Good luck, and hope you get your cheque soon
Regards
Aisling

Aisling Murphy

nerine wrote: »

Veon Ltd.
1 Leopardstown Business Centre,
Leopardstown,
Dublin 18
Free Phone: 1800 719 399

Hi,
Trevor McHugh rang me on this number 01 6219406

Aisling Murphy

It seems that the 6th Fund was described as having gone into 'voluntary liquidation', but I was a shareholder in that fund, and despite many requests for information prior to the sale about the expected value of the shares, before I consented to the sale of the fund, my requests for information were ignored.
My consent was never requested for the sell off of the fund. As I've written before, I went to Veon offices in person with another investor on 22 August after receiving my paltry cheque, and made it clear I wasn't happy with the whole process, either the sale of my investment without my consent, the paltry amount they were sold for, Trevor McHugh and Paul Brosnan's poor performance in representing the best interests of their 12,400 investors, and their conflict of interest in acting as forestry managers for the new owners of our forestry investment funds Axa. I am currently in contact with some other investors including Lar Sheeran who has posted on the 'askaboutmoney' site that he intends placing an ad in the Irish Times to ask unhappy investors to come forward, and a number of us are willing to put some funds together to investigate this whole process. Even if you can't or don't want to contribute financially, we still want you on board. We need a common platform where we can all communicate and share resources (e.g. political contacts, journalistic contacts, etc.) so if anyone has a suggestion please put it out there. Anyone interested in coming on board please contact me at aislingmurphy1@gmail.com Thanks

gordongekko

Aisling Murphy wrote: »

It seems that the 6th Fund was described as having gone into 'voluntary liquidation', but I was a shareholder in that fund, and despite many requests for information prior to the sale about the expected value of the shares, before I consented to the sale of the fund, my requests for information were ignored.
My consent was never requested for the sell off of the fund. As I've written before, I went to Veon offices in person with another investor on 22 August after receiving my paltry cheque, and made it clear I wasn't happy with the whole process, either the sale of my investment without my consent, the paltry amount they were sold for, Trevor McHugh and Paul Brosnan's poor performance in representing the best interests of their 12,400 investors, and their conflict of interest in acting as forestry managers for the new owners of our forestry investment funds Axa. I am currently in contact with some other investors including Lar Sheeran who has posted on the 'askaboutmoney' site that he intends placing an ad in the Irish Times to ask unhappy investors to come forward, and a number of us are willing to put some funds together to investigate this whole process. Even if you can't or don't want to contribute financially, we still want you on board. We need a common platform where we can all communicate and share resources (e.g. political contacts, journalistic contacts, etc.) so if anyone has a suggestion please put it out there. Anyone interested in coming on board please contact me at aislingmurphy1@gmail.com Thanks

Your consent wasnt required for the sale to take place.