Can I take Force Majeure leave

Cerocco

I work for a northern Irish company in the republic. To cut a long story short my son was due for surgery that was cancelled last minute but my boss made me take the annual leave I requested to be home after the surgery even after I gave her notice the surgery was cancelled. I’ve gotten a new date for the surgery and requested holidays to cover being home for his recovery even though now I will only have 3 days holidays until next March. My question is she didn’t realise I wanted the date of the surgery off which is a Friday and has approved the holidays for the following Monday to Friday. Can I use force majeure leave for the surgery day even though I know in advance I will need the day off?

Cerocco

Cerocco wrote: »

I work for a northern Irish company in the republic. To cut a long story short my son was due for surgery that was cancelled last minute but my boss made me take the annual leave I requested to be home after the surgery even after I gave her notice the surgery was cancelled. I’ve gotten a new date for the surgery and requested holidays to cover being home for his recovery even though now I will only have 3 days holidays until next March. My question is she didn’t realise I wanted the date of the surgery off which is a Friday and has approved the holidays for the following Monday to Friday. Can I use force majeure leave for the surgery day even though I know in advance I will need the day off?

FM is the immediate necessity that you be present with s family member due to illness, I doubt this applies in advance.

I know you only have a few days left, but can’t you take one on the day of the surgery?

antix80

You were too honest and your boss is a scumbag for not allowing you to cancel AL given the fairly worthy reason for you requesting AL. You could easily have sprung a sickie or a force majore at the last minute.

And you should for the friday if she won't give it off... Just say your childminder let you down. Because you were actually going to send your child to surgery with a childminder. (course not)

If you get paid sick leave, take a few days off later in the year to make up for it. Maybe a week. Turnabout is fair play.

I'm assuming your communication skills are up to scratch and your mgr is just being a bitch. It's also possible you're not explaining yourself properly. Put your requests in writing making clear the day you leave, day you return, total days off, and reason for time off.

_Brian

First off your boss is a tight prick not making some suitable arrangements to help you out.

Technically FM is for unforeseen emergency situations where you absolutely must be there. Planned surgery wouldn’t really be unforeseen. You could try it but it could be refused, which I’ve seen happen.

Augme

Just ring in sick on the day. Also find a new job. You shouldn't work for a company who treats there staff that badly.

_Brian

Augme wrote: »

Just ring in sick on the day. Also find a new job. You shouldn't work for a company who treats there staff that badly.

You can absolutely do this but expect a disciple for it.

Car99

Force majeure leave cannot be used where the employee has had reasonable time to make alternative arrangements for the family member’s care or has had reasonable time to apply for another form of leave (such as annual leave).

Augme

Augme wrote: »

Just ring in sick on the day. Also find a new job. You shouldn't work for a company who treats there staff that badly.

The op applied for and was given 2 weeks AL, in the opening post he/she said they gave notice to employer of cancellation of the surgery, yet in the previous sentence they say that operation was cancelled at the last minute, Then the op applied for and got another week AL, how is this the employer treating staff badly?

The op can apply for AL on the Friday as well, none of his/her posts say that this has been refused, what it does say is that he/she is running low on AL days, maybe the op wants the day off, but does not want to use another day AL, op might clarify if he/she gave written dates that included the Friday, and if taking another day AL is an option.

OMM 0000

I suspect this is coming from HR rather than your boss.

HR make these sorts of rules.

Your boss sounds weak/thick as **** though. I'm a manager and I would force HR to accept your side of things, as obviously these sorts of bad company decisions just mess with morale and only disadvantage the company long term.

beauf

Dav010 wrote: »

The op applied for and was given 2 weeks AL, ...

You seemed to have missed the bit about having to take the AL regardless that it no longer suited, and would be needed again. Why would you ignore that since it's the main issue.

Some places and people are inflexible with leave. Some for good reason. It's a small office and there is no cover. Some because they are just scumbags. No idea which this employer is.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

You seemed to have missed the bit about having to take the AL regardless that it no longer suited, and would be needed again. Why would you ignore that since it's the main issue.

Some places and people are inflexible with leave. Some for good reason. It's a small office and there is no cover. Some because they are just scumbags. No idea which this employer is.

To be fair, we don’t know anything about the ops workplace. In many companies AL during the summer months when kids are off school is booked in advance and difficult for businesses to organise. I think the fact that a second AL granted at short notice reflects favourably on the employer, many would want a lot more notice.

beauf

I already made the point we don't the context of the employer. We don't know if the job is a critical one or non essential one.

But put it another way what does the employee do if boxed into a corner about a child in hospital or work.

beauf

Op is there anyone else you can swap with.

sbsquarepants

_Brian wrote: »

You can absolutely do this but expect a disciple for it.

Just get a sick note - they'll know you're lying but so what, they can't do anything about it. Your boss is an asshole, but he can't contradict a doctors medical opinion no matter what he thinks.

bobbysands81

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Just get a sick note - they'll know you're lying but so what, they can't do anything about it. Your boss is an asshole, but he can't contradict a doctors medical opinion no matter what he thinks.

Unfortunately Doctor’s certs do not have to be accepted.

A manager/HR might be on dangerous ground not accepting them but they don’t have to.

As for Force Majeure, as others have said, it has to have three components:

1. An emergency.
2. An unforeseen event.
3. You are the only person able to deal with it.

missy_t

OP, I'd look for a sick cert from the doctor. I know that mine gives them if time needed off with sick child. Think your employer is being very unfair - do they really expect you not to be there when your child is getting surgery?! Also if you're worried about Annual Leave, could you see about taking it as Parental Leave if you have any left?

Augme

_Brian wrote: »

Augme wrote: »

Just ring in sick on the day. Also find a new job. You shouldn't work for a company who treats there staff that badly.

You can absolutely do this but expect a disciple for it.

Disciplined for being sick? Good luck with that.

sbsquarepants

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Unfortunately Doctor’s certs do not have to be accepted.
.

Where are you getting that from?

For example if you are sick during your holidays, once you get a sick note your employer is obliged to give you those days back as holidays. They can't just refuse the cert.

Who is some HR person (if there even is a HR dept) to dispute a medical doctors opinion on medical matters?

kyler_87

Can't get over the manager in this situation

OMM 0000

Augme wrote: »

Disciplined for being sick? Good luck with that.

You can be fired for being sick.

I know that may seem hard to believe, but afaik there's no legislature at all protecting the sick.

bobbysands81

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Where are you getting that from?

For example if you are sick during your holidays, once you get a sick note your employer is obliged to give you those days back as holidays. They can't just refuse the cert.

Who is some HR person (if there even is a HR dept) to dispute a medical doctors opinion on medical matters?

There is no legal requirement that states that a cert from a doctor must be accepted.

I work in the Civil Service and whilst HR will practically always accept a Doctor’s Cert to cover an illness that can (and do albeit very rarely) refuse to accept a Doctor’s cert.

HR can if they wish refer someone to the CMO (Chief Medical Officer) to ascertain the bona fides of someone’s claim that they are sick. Where there may be disputes between someone’s Doctor and the CMO the Civil Servive may require a worker to attend an “independent” Doctor for their opinion.

Augme

Augme wrote: »

Disciplined for being sick? Good luck with that.

Disciplined for claiming to be sick when you aren’t?

Augme

Deleted

Augme

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Augme wrote: »

Disciplined for being sick? Good luck with that.

You can be fired for being sick.

I know that may seem hard to believe, but afaik there's no legislature at all protecting the sick.

While it does not specifically cover sickness therehere is legislature protecting unfair dismissals though. If covered by that then employer needs to have a justifiable reason for sacking someone and one sick day is never going to be that.

Dav010 wrote: »

Augme wrote: »

Disciplined for being sick? Good luck with that.

Disciplined for claiming to be sick when you aren’t?

They'll need to prove that first, which will be very difficul

holly8

kyler_87 wrote: »

Can't get over the manager in this situation

same ... I needed time off when one of my kids was unwell a few years ago.
Not only did the doctor issue me a cert (for several weeks) but work accepted it too ... your manager is not very reasonable and/or is a very bad manager.

dellas1979

holly8 wrote: »

your manager is not very reasonable and/or is a very bad manager.

Woah woah woah - speaking as someone who has had to cover colleagues' AL and sick leave just about all summer (various times needed off for different things - not just sick - "swing in a sick note" attitude)...

You can argue that that's not a bad manager, that's a bad colleague to do that.

The OP made arrangements, and they fell through. Albeit an arrangement out of their control. A colleague cant expect everyone else to rearrange things for their particular situation.

If you have 3 days AL left OP, I assume you work full time, and have taken at least 18-19 days already this year. This AL could be due to sick child (I dont know) but other colleague deserve time off too. There is a reason why AL (tries) to be structured and have rules.

If you are reasonable, explain the situation is out of your control, and ask for a few days off (even unpaid), that would sit with me better than doing the "Ive a sick child and 3 days AL left".

Tonne of bricks? Yes. Reality? Yes.

holly8

dellas1979 wrote: »

Woah woah woah - speaking as someone who has had to cover colleagues' AL and sick leave just about all summer (various times needed off for different things - not just sick - "swing in a sick note" attitude)...

You can argue that that's not a bad manager, that's a bad colleague to do that.

The OP made arrangements, and they fell through. Albeit an arrangement out of their control. A colleague cant expect everyone else to rearrange things for another colleague.

Fair enough, that's a good point.
Been there too back in the day.

_Brian

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Just get a sick note - they'll know you're lying but so what, they can't do anything about it. Your boss is an asshole, but he can't contradict a doctors medical opinion no matter what he thinks.

You can still be disciplined with a sick note. It’s not some sort of magic cloak.

knipex

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Just get a sick note - they'll know you're lying but so what, they can't do anything about it. Your boss is an asshole, but he can't contradict a doctors medical opinion no matter what he thinks.

Yes he can..

Because of the way sick certs are being abused, it is happening more and more frequently..

knipex

knipex wrote: »

Yes he can..

Because of the way sick certs are being abused, it is happening more and more frequently..

You are wasting your time. There are those who think all Doctors hand out sick certs on demand, they don’t, and also think that a cert excuses you from work, it doesn’t, it just explains the absence and is required in some work places for the granting of illness leave.

Shelflife

So to summarise with my employer hat on.

Op requested AL to be with their child post surgery. Employers granted this leave and then would have made alternative arrangements to cover their shift ie bring in other staff on the days the OP was off.

Surgery is cancelled last minute and the Op requests not to take their AL, but the employer has sorted out the rota and if he allows the Op to work he will have 2 people in to do the work or else he will have to take a weeks work off the person rostered to replace the Op.

The Op then requested time off again and got it but seems to have neglected to request the actual day of the surgery off and now wants to claim FM for the day off.

Im not sure what the OP expects the employer to do ? he cant read the ops mind. If you need the day of surgery off then go and ask them for it off, dont go down the sick note or FM route and leave them in the lurch , go and talk to your manager.

listermint

Shelflife wrote: »

So to summarise with my employer hat on.

Op requested AL to be with their child post surgery. Employers granted this leave and then would have made alternative arrangements to cover their shift ie bring in other staff on the days the OP was off.

Surgery is cancelled last minute and the Op requests not to take their AL, but the employer has sorted out the rota and if he allows the Op to work he will have 2 people in to do the work or else he will have to take a weeks work off the person rostered to replace the Op.

The Op then requested time off again and got it but seems to have neglected to request the actual day of the surgery off and now wants to claim FM for the day off.

Im not sure what the OP expects the employer to do ? he cant read the ops mind. If you need the day of surgery off then go and ask them for it off, dont go down the sick note or FM route and leave them in the lurch , go and talk to your manager.

Id argue the employer act like a human, Its childs surgery. Doing it your way doesnt pay dividends for staff moral. Or frankly that of the person delivering that nonsense message.

It reminds of Dunnes Stores mini micro managers.

Lego heads

Shelflife

listermint wrote: »

Id argue the employer act like a human, Its childs surgery. Doing it your way doesnt pay dividends for staff moral. Or frankly that of the person delivering that nonsense message.

It reminds of Dunnes Stores mini micro managers.

Lego heads

I agree with you that you need to work with them, but has the employer not given them everything they asked for ?