Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

ath262

basically the same details stated yesterday by Leo

Headshot

It's nice to see a coherent Prime Minister (Taoiseach) in Leo speaking elegantly

lola85

Headshot wrote: »

It's nice to see a coherent Prime Minister (Taoiseach) in Leo speaking elegantly

People think the grass is always greener.

lawred2

lola85 wrote: »

People think the grass is always greener.

care to elaborate on what you mean by that?

Akrasia

Johnson's speech was a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.

He is still claiming that he is definitely going to leave on 31st of October even though he has no proposals for a negotiated deal and no desire to pass May's Deal.

prunudo

Listening to the speeches on the radio at the moment. How is the body language between the two?

Also add, its a bit disrespectful for him to be calling him Leo rather than Taoiseach or Taoiseach Varadkar.

careless sherpa

What a waste of time Johnson is. Says absolutely nothing and does it in an obnoxious way

VinLieger

prunudo wrote: »

Listening to the speeches on the radio at the moment. How is the body language between the two?

Leo looks grand Boris looks very uncomfortable

VinLieger

What is with Johnsons obsession with answering every every journo by responding specifically with their first name?

boggerman1

Boris speaking rubbish,check.leavin on Oct 31st,check,our friends in EU,check.Leo is steady whilst delivering a few subtle digs at the hapless Johnson.

McMurphy

Boris completely sidestepped the questions relating to the border.

johnnyskeleton

VinLieger wrote: »

What is with Johnsons obsession with answering every every journo by responding specifically with their first name?

It's a trick that, if they know the journalist well, makes it seem like they are friends and that it is an intimate Q&A session rather than a formal setting. As a former journalist, there's a plausibility to the suggestion that he is friendly with them all.

However, calling the Taoiseach "Leo" just seems disrespectful on this occasion and his references to the Irish journalists somewhat patronising.

Call me Al

VinLieger wrote: »

What is with Johnsons obsession with answering every every journo by responding specifically with their first name?

He seems to think the overfamiliarity is endearing. It isn't. I find it very disrespectful, especially towards the Taoiseach.

I noted in Varadkar's statement, so competently delivered, to the effect of "we are your friend and ally, and how you exit the EU will dictate if that remains the case". Very pointed in its meaning.
And very sad that it has come to this.

Infini

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Boris completely sidestepped the questions relating to the border.

I'd be honest saw a report saying hes disbanded his negotiating team this morning and between his attitude and bluster hes only intending to do one thing: Crash the UK out of the EU. He's not interested in anyone else but himself and as far as I can see the only thing is if a crashout happens is that so long as the UK is run by him that any agreement reached post Brexit is only for basic humanitarian stuff like food and medicines. Everything else gets tariffed and if they try the singapore on thames approach then take countermeasures as needes.

It's sad its come to this but unless theres a last minute change by Parliment to force Boris out and have a caretaker appointed to undo this mess its gonna get messy and well need to protect ourselves against their toxic bolloxology.

Call me Al

Infini wrote: »

I'd be honest saw a report saying hes disbanded his negotiating team this morning and between his attitude and bluster hes only intending to do one thing: Crash the UK out of the EU. He's not interested in anyone else but himself and as far as I can see the only thing is if a crashout happens is that so long as the UK is run by him that any agreement reached post Brexit is only for basic humanitarian stuff like food and medicines. Everything else gets tariffed and if they try the singapore on thames approach then take countermeasures as needes.

It's sad its come to this but unless theres a last minute change by Parliment to force Boris out and have a caretaker appointed to undo this mess its gonna get messy and well need to protect ourselves against their toxic bolloxology.

And in that case the border, and the chaos that will follow, is the only real bargaining chip they have.

It doesn't get much more irresponsible, and it's all to save the Tory party skin.

coolshannagh28

The dynamic is interesting ; progress on the backstop could save Boris career and that may motivate him as he is ultimately a me feiner . There were strong hints that movement is possible.

Zubeneschamali

Akrasia wrote: »

He is still claiming that he is definitely going to leave on 31st of October even though he has no proposals for a negotiated deal and no desire to pass May's Deal.

No Deal was always his plan.

lawred2

Call me Al wrote: »

He seems to think the overfamiliarity is endearing. It isn't. I find it very disrespectful, especially towards the Taoiseach.

I noted in Varadkar's statement, so competently delivered, to the effect of "we are your friend and ally, and how you exit the EU will dictate if that remains the case". Very pointed in its meaning.
And very sad that it has come to this.

It can be - if it comes from a place of genuine origin..

Nothing about Johnson seems sincere or genuine so it comes across as manipulative and calculated.

It's playbook PR stuff with the aim of personalising the relationship with the interviewee so that they might be less likely to ask difficult questions. Strips them of their anonymity. He's forever pulling such stunts. Like that time he came out of his house carrying a tray of tea and biscuits for reporters camped outside his house.

He's a manipulator.

VinLieger

lawred2 wrote: »

It can't be - if it comes from a place of genuine origin..

Nothing about Johnson seems sincere or genuine so it comes across as manipulative and calculated.

It's playbook PR stuff with the aim of personalising the relationship with the interviewee so that they might be less likely to ask difficult questions. Strips them of their anonymity. He's forever pulling such stunts. Like that time he came out of his house carrying a tray of tea and biscuits for reporters camped outside his house.

He's a manipulator.

As much as i hate the man that tray of tea stunt was fantastic

lawred2

VinLieger wrote: »

As much as i hate the man that tray of tea stunt was fantastic

yeah it was - but it didn't come from a nice place

Itssoeasy

The answers boris Johnson gave when asked about the border was unbelievable. He might as well have read the betting results back as an answer.

josip

I'm not a Johnson fan, (for a while his name was banned in our house) but I've no problem with the dropping of titles and calling people by their names.
It's a bit snowflakey to be complaining that people are being disrespectful to someone because they didn't use their formal title.
When I go to see my TD in their clinic, am I supposed to address them as 'Minister'?

VinLieger

josip wrote: »

I'm not a Johnson fan, (for a while his name was banned in our house) but I've no problem with the dropping of titles and calling people by their names.
It's a bit snowflakey to be complaining that people are being disrespectful to someone because they didn't use their formal title.
When I go to see my TD in their clinic, am I supposed to address them as 'Minister'?

Id expect it to happen during formal diplomatic occasions between 2 countries leaders which this most definitely is, his refusal to use the title is trying to pretend they are friendly and any discussions will thus be far less acrimonious than they actually will be in reality. Also i think part of it is due to the ingrained conservative refusal to accept Ireland as an equal.

lawred2

josip wrote: »

I'm not a Johnson fan, (for a while his name was banned in our house) but I've no problem with the dropping of titles and calling people by their names.
It's a bit snowflakey to be complaining that people are being disrespectful to someone because they didn't use their formal title.
When I go to see my TD in their clinic, am I supposed to address them as 'Minister'?

well that's a false equivalence

Fionn1952

lawred2 wrote: »

josip wrote: »

I'm not a Johnson fan, (for a while his name was banned in our house) but I've no problem with the dropping of titles and calling people by their names.
It's a bit snowflakey to be complaining that people are being disrespectful to someone because they didn't use their formal title.
When I go to see my TD in their clinic, am I supposed to address them as 'Minister'?

well that's a false equivalence

I'd be curious how Boris Johnson would react to a foreign diplomat referring to the Queen as, 'Liz'.

ath262

from the BBC - confirmation that Parliament will be prorogued from the end of Today's sitting until 14th October.

Plaid Cymru looking at option to try and impeach Johnson if he ignores the no-deal law.

ancapailldorcha

It's weird watching the world's oldest political party (according to The Economist) tear itself apart like this. Since receiving Cameron's medicine in 2015, instead of healing the rift, the disease's progress has quickened and now the party looks genuinely to be beyond saving unless it is taken over by a new generation of leaders after a spell in the electoral wilderness.

If the party wins a general election, it will proceed with hard Brexit which will result in the permanent banishment of any talented One-Nation and Whig MP's in favour of recruiting yes-people who will be chosen for loyalty to Johnson and Brexit above all else. This from Philip Hammond indicates the current state of affairs:

https://twitter.com/PhilipHammondUK/status/1170633949879635968

The Conservatives used to genuinely care about the country. There's a reason that the party perceived as being that of fiscal responsibility and prudence kept funding Northern Ireland. Now, we have an unelected spad coming out with this:

https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1170979456611233792

The party of law and order now has MP's encouraging the leader to break the law:

https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1170776874190090240?s=19

The party seems to have been completely captured by vested interests in the media and the financial sector who have managed to convince swathes of the public that their disaster capitalist project is a working class revolution when it is exactly the opposite, possibly because of the EU's anti-tax avoidance directive.

I know a civil servant in DoIT. He has been sanguine bordering on cheerful about a no deal Brexit but he's spent the last week picking my brain about moving to Ireland and is applying for jobs there. He adamantly refuses to live in the UK under a Johnson government and I do not blame him. If Johnson wins and implements no deal, this country's standing and economy along with the quality of life of many of its citizens and residents will be irrevocably damaged. If the remain coalition actually comes together and can engineer some sort of victory and then call an informed referendum to bring this charade to an end then further damage should be prevented and hopefully they can work towards healing the divide in this country that the Tories along with several identikit neoliberal politicians from Labour and the Liberal Democrats have exploited and expanded.

Zubeneschamali

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If the remain coalition actually comes together and can engineer some sort of victory and then call an informed referendum to bring this charade to an end then further damage should be prevented

I hope this can be done in the near term as it stops the damage to Ireland and the EU, but...

The ERG wing of the Tory Party + Brexit Party supporters will scream betrayal and treachery, and will never accept a Remain victory, and will be a permanent presence in Westminster, waiting for a chance to seize the wheel and steer the UK bus back towards the cliff.

And if Scotland ends up leaving, the Westminster maths swings back their direction.

ancapailldorcha

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I hope this can be done in the near term as it stops the damage to Ireland and the EU, but...

The ERG wing of the Tory Party + Brexit Party supporters will scream betrayal and treachery, and will never accept a Remain victory, and will be a permanent presence in Westminster, waiting for a chance to seize the wheel and steer the UK bus back towards the cliff.

And if Scotland ends up leaving, the Westminster maths swings back their direction.

The histrionics from the ERG and the Brexit party are inevitable once Brexit is exposed for what it is. They'll continue to spout vitriol and blame the EU for everything under the sun. This is unavoidable.

I wasn't confident about the Remain parties working together but Johnson's proroguing of Parliament seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Time will tell of course but there's more reason to be cheerful than before.

Water John

It now seems that No 10, despite all those saying they'd romp in on an election, feel they would not get a majority. They know they have to capture 35 seats they never won before.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1171017492065636352?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1171017492065636352&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpolitics%2Flive%2F2019%2Fsep%2F09%2Fbrexit-latest-news-eu-no-deal-bill-royal-assent-boris-johnson-parliament-politics-live

That is what may be tempering Johnson. He now knows he won't win a GE.