Took a while, but the Fruit market Smithfield at last is for development.

Spanish Eyes

At last.

Seems to take forever to get anything done in this city. But hopefully this is good news and will progress relatively quickly.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-s-victorian-fruit-market-to-close-for-two-years-for-revamp-1.3987460

Will be great and will open up the North side by the Luas.

Pity about the Iveagh Market though. But that's for another day.

Great stuff, no telling the impact stuff like this can have on the local area.

Thelonious Monk

There's no footfall in that no man's land area really. Do people think this will work? I'd be cautious. Hopefully though.

imme

I can't see the plan coming off,not that I don't want it to.

I don't see the potential in the area for what they propose.

Apart from that I don't see the impetus from the local authority.

It will end up like the Iveagh Market sadly.

Muahahaha

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

There's no footfall in that no man's land area really. Do people think this will work? I'd be cautious. Hopefully though.

yeah its a pretty dead area. But I think if it is a big food market with lots of choice it will do well, its only a few minutes walk from Henry St so people will venture down. Should be busy with tourists too.

dudara

I personally think that the Iveagh Market would be a better investment choice than the Smithfield market. There's a better concentration of attractions and footfall over near the Iveagh Market.

But either way, it's good to finally see something like this happening.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

There's no footfall in that no man's land area really. Do people think this will work? I'd be cautious. Hopefully though.

There's no footfall because there's nothing to go to as it stands. But it's a short walk to Smithfield on one side, Henry St. on the other, I think it can do fine if they have a good offering. It's not even that far from the likes of Phibsborough and Drumcondra. It's also on the Luas line. Build it and they will come...

boombang

I predict this will be an enormous, expensive flop. It's a "nice" idea, but I suspect it has no real market viability. Who are the customers that are going to support it? The people who live locally who are mostly on low incomes? Are wealthy people really going to travel from afar to buy what can be got cheaply and conveniently in supermarkets. Fallon and Byrne's food hall if the only other thing that imagine that currently comes close. That's relatively small and well located around lots of other shops.

This strikes as a foolish initiative on behalf of DCC, who lack commercial sense. I feel they should stick to doing the basics of what a council should do, rather than probably waste millions on this.

You might think I'm skeptical, but I think this should only be considered if it's done in collaboration with private business. If the private market thinks it's viable, then maybe public money should be committed, but otherwise don't waste money on something that businesses themselves wouldn't think it viable.

L1011

There's a new hotel being built opposite the Hacienda. There's a high end cocktail and craft bar opened (and getting the crowds) in what used to be the Claddagh Ring markets early house.

The locals are not the target audience

jon1981

I think many posting have not took a real look at what's going on in that area.

-3 hotels currently under construction 1-3 min walk away.
- 2 seven story office and apartment blocks right by Smithfield square under construction with many more vacant sites ready to be built on.
- The department of justice has taken a 30 yr lease on one of them
- 2 high end student and off academic year accommodation blocks 5 mins away
- A US tech company with 1400 employees literally within eye sight of it.
- Lots of the tacky shops beside army bargains already transformed into nice eateries


Change is underway and it will attract tourists. The locals were never the target audience. I work in the area and there is a huge number of tourists visiting that area already due to the rich history in the area.

r93kaey5p2izun

What sort of set up are they planning here - something like Borough Market in London? Or Mercado da Ribeira in Lisbon?

jon1981

I believe something close to the English market in Cork city.

Tusky

boombang wrote: »

I predict this will be an enormous, expensive flop. It's a "nice" idea, but I suspect it has no real market viability. Who are the customers that are going to support it? The people who live locally who are mostly on low incomes?

Not everyone on the north side is on low incomes - it's a 5 minute walk from Smithfield Square or about 15 minutes from Stoneybatter and Phibsboro. The North side of the city centre needs investment. The area has lots of potential - I see it being very busy.

Spanish Eyes

Cannot be any worse than what is there already really.

Better to try and maybe fail, than not to try at all.

I think it will be a great success if it is planned for footfall and participation. And since it is is within the hipster/LUAS enclave it will be great. But word will get around for everyone.

English Market Cork,

Las Ramblas market in Barcelona.

And many others. People love markets. But we are told we need to use Tesco etc.

But sure knock it on the head and all that!

r93kaey5p2izun

jon1981 wrote: »

I believe something close to the English market in Cork city.

Not familiar with it. Is it mostly produce for sale or are there food stalls/cafes too?

I think this would be more likely to succeed if there are plenty of food stalls or cafes in the mix. I don't think it would attract enough footfall if it's mostly butchers or fish counters and the like. I'd really like to see it do well though and see the area picking up.

Muahahaha

jon1981 wrote: »

I believe something close to the English market in Cork city.

yeah a mix of food, crafts and a few of the florists back too is what was reported last year. It'll be important it doesnt suffer like the English Market does with too many tourists shuffling through the place buying nothing. That said I think it is a much bigger venue than the English Market so there should be enough space for everyone.

I'd hope it is open at night as well, at least on Thursdays & Friday evenings. If they have a good line up of food stalls with adequate seating to sit down and eat and maybe a bit of music then it could be quite the venue in the evenings.

jon1981

jon1981 wrote: »

Change is underway and it will attract tourists. The locals were never the target audience. I work in the area and there is a huge number of tourists visiting that area already due to the rich history in the area.

I used to go to KChido a lot when it was there and was always surprised by the number of tourists in the area.

Muahahaha wrote: »

I'd hope it is open at night as well, at least on Thursdays & Friday evenings. If they have a good line up of food stalls with adequate seating to sit down and eat and maybe a bit of music then it could be quite the venue in the evenings.

There's a market like this, only has food and drink options, right beside Victoria station in London and it's packed every night. What also comes to mind, a bit closer to home, is the Honest2Goodness market in Glasnevin industrial estate. The location has zero, and I mean absolutely zero, regular footfall but they have a great offering every Saturday morning so the place is absolutely packed. It's been successful so it's now opening on a Thursday evening for dining as far as I know.

Muahahaha

Yeah the Honest 2 Goodness market is excellent even though it is in an industrial estate. It just goes to show that people will travel from outside an area for markets like this if there is a good offering. I know that market near Victoria and its a lively space at night

I was reading in that IT article that DCC initially intended for the Fruit market to be 50/50 wholesale to retail. That plan is now out the window as most of the main fruit wholesalers have now moved to warehouses on the edge of the m50 so the market will now comprise 100% retail with butchers, bakeries, greengrocers, cheese specialists, etc making up the stalls.

Its also good to see that DCC are putting a tender out for an operator to refit the entire premises and then to run it on a long lease. The operator will decide on the tenants for each stall which is great news because if that was left in the hand of DCC we might end up with some kind of tack-fest that we see every year on the Henry St Christmas markets. Theres not many companies capable of re-fitting such a large space but I would think that Paddy McKillens Press Up group would be one of them interested in the venture. It would be great if a few of the vendors from the Honest 2 Goodness market in Glasnevin end up operating in the Fruit market, a good few of them would be a good fit.

Stop moaning ffs

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

There's no footfall in that no man's land area really. Do people think this will work? I'd be cautious. Hopefully though.

There’s loads of footfall. I live right there and always getting asked by tourists almost exactly there, where the Jameson distillery is. So it makes perfect sense to develop this.l as a shopping location stepping stone to the distillery and Smithfield.The new car park right beside it is really bizarre tbh. Almost always completely empty. Can’t figure that out. Is it private?

This forum makes me laugh sometimes. On a weekly basis we have some variant of the "I hate Dublin, Dublin is a kip" thread, but here we have what could be a great development for an area of the city that really needs it and the thread is full of "what are they at, this will be a failure". Can't win!

harr

I have see likes of this work well in other city’s was in Malaga only a few weeks back and they have a similar size indoor market and probably a similar location in distance from heart of city and it was packed with locals and tourists and had a great buzz about it.
Once they don’t go to high end so locals and tourists both can use it.

Stop moaning ffs

Spitafelds market in London would be a good template but maybe don’t go as high end for want if a better word. Hope they can keep the traders there. They only use a really small amount of the space inside relative to the entire space. Most of its empty. It could be restored and be beautiful there’s loads of cool iron work inside with the roof supports and beams.

Stop moaning ffs

There’s only 8 traders still there?
Thought it was a few more



This morning. At Dublin's Victorian Fruit and Vegetable Market between Capel Street and Smithfield in Dublin 7 - where just eight traders remain. Joseph Duffy (third pic), of Joseph M Duffy and Sons, has worked at the market for the past 45 years. His grandparents met at the market and, in total, his family have worked there for more than 125 years. [ 107 more words ]
https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/08/15/at-the-market/

Muahahaha

Yeah loads have already moved out with an agreement from DCC. The last 8 are due to move out shortly and then it goes to tender to find an operator. 2 years is the expected total timeline before it opens.

trellheim

Hopefully something like Mercado de San Miguel in Madrid or Spitalfields that kind of thing

they need to be really careful about the tenant mix and keep it really high-end with associated nightspots .

If people will recall, the Epicurean Food Hall had to close - its a Dealz now and it had some lovely dining options, in a fairly decent place with massive local foot fall - but still closed

so

petros1980

trellheim wrote: »

Hopefully something like Mercado de San Miguel in Madrid or Spitalfields that kind of thing

they need to be really careful about the tenant mix and keep it really high-end with associated nightspots .

If people will recall, the Epicurean Food Hall had to close - its a Dealz now and it had some lovely dining options, in a fairly decent place with massive local foot fall - but still closed

so

Took thewords right out og my mouth regarding Madrid market. It's brilliant!
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2015/jan/29/top-10-food-markets-madrid-spain

The Epicurean didn't have great offerings though really. Chinese and Indian buffet joints and all you can eat Italian if i recall. Plus it wasn't exactly a nice place to hang out, felt a bit like a school canteen.

gmisk

An indoor food market could be an absolute gold mine, we have the weather for one.
People have mentioned Madrid and places like that though one of my favourites on a smaller scale is Kleinmarkthalle in Frankfurt.
St George's market in Belfast is also always pretty rammed.

Mac-Chops

Foodhallen in Amsterdam would be another good model and would work well in the area.

I wonder if Timeout are in the mix. It's a good spot in Lisbon and they have plans to set up in London, Prague and Dubai in next couple of years having gone for similar ventures in the states.

Saying that, St Andrew's Church/Foodhall on Suffolk St is due to open this year also and seems to be going for that kind of vibe given it uses actual images of Timeout Lisbon in its marketing photos.

So maybe something more produce focused like English Market or Borough Market in London would make more sense.

BeerNut

petros1980 wrote: »

The Epicurean didn't have great offerings though really. Chinese and Indian buffet joints and all you can eat Italian if i recall.

It wasn't like that when it opened.

There absolutely is enough footfall in the area to carry this, whether it's tourists going to Jameson or the foodie crowd who eat on Capel Street. The new Bullet Duck & Dumplings and the Fudo Izakaya nearby indicate that the area is on the up. That location is great for something like this and it's long overdue.

L1011

Mac-Chops wrote: »

Saying that, St Andrew's Church/Foodhall on Suffolk St is due to open this year also

Pushed to 2020 I believe.

Stop moaning ffs

There’s loads of loads of scope and space for market stalls outside too, on both sides, hopefully this could be a future venue for the Christmas market which is currently cancelled due to currently being homeless

gmisk

Mac-Chops wrote: »

Foodhallen in Amsterdam would be another good model and would work well in the area.

Oh that place is amazing!

imme

L1011 wrote: »

Pushed to 2020 I believe.

Haven't heard any timeline, definitely no sign of work ongoing.

imme

Plenty of mention for Cork's English Market.

The English Market is predominantly a market.

The plan for the Dublin Fruit & Veg market says that half the refurbished building will be a food retail market.
Is there business for this in Dublin.
This means premium prices.

There is already the likes of Donnybrook Fair, Fresh, Dollard &Co, and Fallon &Byrne that are providing this premium product.

Will this part work in the location.
A previous poster has said that there are new hotels planned for the area.
Do people staying in hotels buy broccoli or cabbage?

They might be looking for a lunch offer.
Maybe.

Stop moaning ffs

imme wrote: »

Plenty of mention for Cork's English Market.

The English Market is predominantly a market.

The plan for the Dublin Fruit & Veg market says that half the refurbished building will be a food retail market.
Is there business for this in Dublin.
This means premium prices.

There is already the likes of Donnybrook Fair, Fresh, Dollard &Co, and Fallon &Byrne that are providing this premium product.

Will this part work in the location.
A previous poster has said that there are new hotels planned for the area.
Do people staying in hotels buy broccoli or cabbage?

They might be looking for a lunch offer.
Maybe.

The shops you mentioned are definitely pitched to a certain wage bracket.
Even fresh in Smithfield is a good 20% more expensive for basics like milk, than the centra around the corner, the mark up on the rest of their admittedly vast and varied range that you can’t get in centra or Tesco, is prohibitively expensive.

God knows what it’ll be like in the market. Anyone setting up in there would have to take the long view and keep it reasonable if it’s to be viable.

tjc28

I was part of a focus group on this about 6 years ago. Shows how slowly wheels turn to me. What happened with the Iveagh market?

imme

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The shops you mentioned are definitely pitched to a certain wage bracket.
Even fresh in Smithfield is a good 20% more expensive for basics like milk, than the centra around the corner, the mark up on the rest of their admittedly vast and varied range that you can’t get in centra or Tesco, is prohibitively expensive.

God knows what it’ll be like in the market. Anyone setting up in there would have to take the long view and keep it reasonable if it’s to be viable.

It has to be a premium priced market. It won't be a Tesco Express. That's if they put in a standalone fresh foodstuffs shop.

The alternative is street stall type stalls a la Moore Street. Would customers go out of their way to go to a place off capel street for a few bananas.

So it has to be a premium product if there is to be that element.

Stop moaning ffs

imme wrote: »

It has to be a premium priced market. It won't be a Tesco Express. That's if they put in a standalone fresh foodstuffs shop.

The alternative is street stall type stalls a la Moore Street. Would customers go out of their way to go to a place off capel street for a few bananas.

So it has to be a premium product if there is to be that element.

There isn’t enough of that demographic to keep it sustainable. This will be pitched at tourists primarily I’d say. So loads of coffee shops and variations of same. Stand in Smithfield any evening and it’s riddled with deliveroo lads doing their thing delivering food. Not sure an English market type situation would last long here. If they mixed it up and made it like I mentioned before a spitafelds with clothes shops and furniture shops, whatever, it might get legs. The likes of fallon and Byrne in this market in this location, wouldn’t last long.

Muahahaha

tjc28 wrote: »

I was part of a focus group on this about 6 years ago. Shows how slowly wheels turn to me. What happened with the Iveagh market?

Good question, last I heard was there was a lot of building problems on the site. Not sure if the developer ran out of money to finish it.

HeidiHeidi

Muahahaha wrote: »

Good question, last I heard was there was a lot of building problems on the site. Not sure if the developer ran out of money to finish it.

I don't think the developer ever got started (properly, if at all).


Last I heard, DCC were trying to get control of it back from him.

trellheim

Look at oscars in Smithfield if there was a decent walking route , mary St beside Army Bargains past Smithfield along Marys lane

Also this might be a catalyst for Four Courts LUAS if they make it an easy walk as currently its not really !

But it does need to be upmarket theres a strong axis

Say

Belfry , smithfield, bonobos , markets capel st , thats a good story to tell with frequent buses and LUAS at each end

Also it needs to have a ton of wine bars and restaurants, a shopping food market wont work well except for high-end stuff

petros1980

I don't think a lot of you posters really get what the aim is with the project. It isn't just to create a Fallon and Byrne type fancy grocers; Selling produce for people to take home will be one aspect. But the main focus will be places to eat and drink within the market. It would definitely do well in that regard in terms of workers going to grab a bite for lunch, tourists going for a wander and a snack; and people going for a bite for an hour or so before a night out in town.

Muahahaha

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

I don't think the developer ever got started (properly, if at all).


Last I heard, DCC were trying to get control of it back from him.

Yeah the developer Martin Kean began work on it but ran into difficulties and out of money. DCC voted to take back control of it in May 2017. Its been derelict for over 20 years now
https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-city-council-iveagh-markets-3581827-Sep2017/

petros1980 wrote: »

I don't think a lot of you posters really get what the aim is with the project. It isn't just to create a Fallon and Byrne type fancy grocers; Selling produce for people to take home will be one aspect. But the main focus will be places to eat and drink within the market. It would definitely do well in that regard in terms of workers going to grab a bite for lunch, tourists going for a wander and a snack; and people going for a bite for an hour or so before a night out in town.

As well as that it is also a missing in link in an east to west spine running from the Spire all the way to the Phoenix Park. When its done tourists will go from the Spire along Henry St, then the Fruit Market and Jameson distillery, Smithfield Sqaure then Collins Baracks and Muesum then the Phoenix Park. The fruit markets will link Henry St nicely with the Smithfield area.

willabur

If its done right this could be a great success. There is plenty of foot traffic in that space and having an attraction there will only drive it further. As long as they don't pack it with starbucks or Freshi or some other bland chain crap then it has a chance, engage with the local businesses and people and not market it directly to tourists. Do it well enough and the tourists will come anyways

pmcc1

Remember the Paris Bakery?*
That place was doing a roaring trade and was having a transformative effect on the Moore St area 2013/4 before being shut down*
And it was happening totally organically too, no planners, no corpo, just hard work, high quality and good eye for opportunity*.
Nothing has filled the gap Paris Bakery left in the North City Centre, so this Fruit Market plan has a good chance if the planners don't screw it up.

* (yes, yes, they didn't cover themselves in glory after they were closed down)

willabur

pmcc1 wrote: »

Remember the Paris Bakery?*
That place was doing a roaring trade and was having a transformative effect on the Moore St area 2013/4 before being shut down*
And it was happening totally organically too, no planners, no corpo, just hard work, high quality and good eye for opportunity*.
Nothing has filled the gap Paris Bakery left in the North City Centre, so this Fruit Market plan has a good chance if the planners don't screw it up.

* (yes, yes, they didn't cover themselves in glory after they were closed down)

What happened there again? Used to go there quite alot

Spanish Eyes

Wishing it every success, but what will the rates be?

I walk up that road now and then just to see what's going on. It is not that enticing at the moment, looking a bit grim and totally uncared for. IMO.

Just like a lot of places around Dublin now.

DCC and its chief need to get real and do something for this lovely city.

The pavements are carp, the room on the pavements for pedestrians is just so small now.

Anyway. Just a rant. But nothing will be done to sort out the every day person will it?

BeerNut

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

the room on the pavements for pedestrians is just so small now.

It's a lot better without the market traders parking their vehicles on it.

Stop moaning ffs

BeerNut wrote: »

It's a lot better without the market traders parking their vehicles on it.

There’s loads and loads of space on both street access front facing sides of the market. The vans etc won’t be there or presumably will be moved into the new car park right beside it. Was that why that car park was built? It’s the size of a city block. It’s pretty huge.

boombang

RTE's Morning Ireland reporting that compensation for the last group of previous stall holders is up to €5million.

My previous post said this will be expensive. This backs up my concerns.

wakka12

imme wrote: »

I can't see the plan coming off,not that I don't want it to.

I don't see the potential in the area for what they propose.

Apart from that I don't see the impetus from the local authority.

It will end up like the Iveagh Market sadly.

Depends on the quality of the market, if its something worth going to people will make the effort. It may be outside the main retail core but its on the luas line so hardly inaccessible, Belfast's titanic quarter is a bit of a trek on foot from the commercial city centre and is immensely popular for instance