Leaf 40 ex-demo - rapid charging

slave1

I'm half looking at UK Dealer ex-demo Leaf 40, likely the guts of a year old at this stage and most dealers in the UK they have a rapid charger installed.

Putting two and two together I have to assume that this car has 100% been rapid charged since delivery...let's say 12months old and 12,000miles on the clock....

Any comments or concerns regarding such a level of (assumed) continuous rapid charging?

Soarer

Ask them to run LeafSpy. Should give you the amount of charges.

slave1

I thought of that but the sales person said they don't have it....

Old diesel

Tbh I see two options here......

1) assume the worse and decide accordingly - you know that 100 percent rapid charging from new and having people test driving isnt the best......

2) if the car otherwise looks tempting then fly over with with your dongle and leaf spy device and hook it up. Get yourself a return flight to prevent any "I need to buy it" moments.

There is a third long shot option......

Put a shout out on a UK forum or Facebook group to see if there's anyone that has leaf spy that might be able to go to the dealer and check out the leafspy readings.

Old diesel

Further points.....

In themselves the rapid charge stats aren't crucial - what is crucial is.......

SOH.....

kwh remaining at 100 percent

Cell balance......

The latter might be of particular concern if a dealer potentially only ever really charged to 80 to 90 percent with insufficient charge to a full 100 percent

Take leafyspy readings of a known okay L40 and use those as a guide.

Especially the cell balance

slave1

Yes, had same thoughts

Mike9832

How much is it?

Old diesel

You could also have a chat with someone like Phil Fitzgerald (Electric Auto) and get an estimate as to what he might be able to sell a similar car for......

Never dealt with the man myself but he's got a decent rep and anything he is willing to put his name behind and back is most likely going to be a decent bus.

In the unlikely event it isn't - he will judging by reputation - step up and do right by you.

Worth a shot I'd say - no flying over to deal with some random dealer - and no issues bringing it home and what not.

You can then decide if any saving from the UK or any premium you pay on a car from Phil is worth it.

charlieIRL

I never thought of that Slave1. Good point.

unkel

I wouldn't be so worried about the health of the battery on a 1 year old EV that still has many years of battery warranty left. What's the mileage on it? That will roughly tell you how often it has been fast charged.

I'd be more concerned about the Irish public charging network and I would wait to see what is going to happen to it before I bought a Leaf 40 for considerable money. Unless of course I (almost) never needed to fast charge.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

I wouldn't be so worried about the health of the battery on a 1 year old EV that still has many years of battery warranty left. What's the mileage on it? That will roughly tell you how often it has been fast charged.

I'd be more concerned about the Irish public charging network and I would wait to see what is going to happen to it before I bought a Leaf 40 for considerable money. Unless of course I (almost) never needed to fast charge.

This is good advice for any EV that doesnt have CCS

slave1

I don't use pubic network anymore, haven't since I got the home charger installed.

I made an enquiry on another Leaf40, 44,000kms, 224QC and 258 L1/L2 and 93% SOH for a car that's a Jan 2018 reg...….
Not mad on seeing that level of SOH

Soarer

slave1 wrote: »

I thought of that but the sales person said they don't have it....

Mad that a main dealer wouldn't have LeafSpy.
Then again, they have access to the full Nissan system.
So if a free app can tell you the amount of charges, surely they can plug it in and find out?

Soarer

slave1 wrote: »

I don't use pubic network anymore, haven't since I got the home charger installed.

I made an enquiry on another Leaf40, 44,000kms, 224QC and 258 L1/L2 and 93% SOH for a car that's a Jan 2018 reg...….
Not mad on seeing that level of SOH

There was a thing before where Leafs counted each L1/L2 charge twice. Don't know if it's still the case either, but there's a chance that 258 figure could be less.

Not that that's the figured to be worried about anyway.

September1

I'm not sure how CCS makes a difference. There are 7 locations (at Nissan dealerships) where you can use Chademo only and then in most locations both DC systems can be used. Ionity which is currently only provider with CSS-only charging would have 4 locations in total.

Old diesel

Soarer wrote: »

Mad that a main dealer wouldn't have LeafSpy.
Then again, they have access to the full Nissan system.
So if a free app can tell you the amount of charges, surely they can plug it in and find out?

Nissan don't recognise Leafspy readings - a UK owner on twitter had proof of his unbalanced cell issue on Leafspy but Nissan still had to run their own tests.

Leafspy is getting info from the car itself so it's very plausible that Nissan's official system provides the same info.

But a salesman might not necessarily have the full info - but simply the assumption that the workshop checked it so it's "grand".

Would actually expect a Salesman to spin it by saying the car is "thoroughly checked using Nissan equipment that's better then an app on your phone".

slave1

slave1 wrote: »

I don't use pubic network anymore, haven't since I got the home charger installed.

I made an enquiry on another Leaf40, 44,000kms, 224QC and 258 L1/L2 and 93% SOH for a car that's a Jan 2018 reg...….
Not mad on seeing that level of SOH

93% that's nuts, my 171 i3 , 63,500 Kms still has 100%.

zilog_jones

Soarer wrote: »

Mad that a main dealer wouldn't have LeafSpy.

There's no way a main dealer is going to be using some third party unauthorised smartphone app on their cars...

Soarer

Deleted User wrote: »

93% that's nuts, my nearly 171 i3 , 63,500 Kms still has 100%.

That's what it's telling you. How do you actually know though?

By all accounts, Nissan's software seems to be the most honest.

I mean, it can't be physically possible that your i3 has 100% capacity at this stage?
Same goes for the 2-3 year old Ioniqs that show 100%.
And I think someone mentioned Konas having 110% capacity?!

Soarer

zilog_jones wrote: »

There's no way a main dealer is going to be using some third party unauthorised smartphone app on their cars...

That was just a frivolous comment.

The more pertinent one was their software must be able to tell how many charges the car has had.

I believe it based on other 33 kwh users and the cell specs are pretty good + the 22 kwh life wasn’t showing such good results after the same time so I’m pretty sure it’s correct rather than bmw programming the bms to always report 100%.

KCross

slave1 wrote: »

I don't use pubic network anymore, haven't since I got the home charger installed.

I made an enquiry on another Leaf40, 44,000kms, 224QC and 258 L1/L2 and 93% SOH for a car that's a Jan 2018 reg...….
Not mad on seeing that level of SOH

Thats alot of rapid charging. Basically rapid charged every 2-3 days... maybe more if its been parked up for a while. Was it a Taxi?

93% SOH seems in the right ball park though. Were you expecting 100%?

Soarer wrote: »

There was a thing before where Leafs counted each L1/L2 charge twice. Don't know if it's still the case either, but there's a chance that 258 figure could be less.

Yea, same behaviour in L40 as the older Leafs, when you have a timer configured each charge gets counted twice.

Soarer

Deleted User wrote: »

I believe it based on other 33 kwh users and the cell specs are pretty good + the 22 kwh life wasn’t showing such good results after the same time so I’m pretty sure it’s correct rather than bmw programming the bms to always report 100%.

So you honestly believe your battery, at that age, that mileage, and that amount of charges, hasn't dropped capacity by at least 1%?

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

So you honestly believe your battery, at that age, that mileage, and that amount of charges, hasn't dropped capacity by at least 1%?

They could have included extra kWh above the labelled usable capacity to cover initial degradation.


Hyundai and Kia have done this with the triplets, some users report 65.5kWh available when brand new.

Soarer

ELM327 wrote: »

They could have included extra kWh above the labelled usable capacity to cover initial degradation.


Hyundai and Kia have done this with the triplets, some users report 65.5kWh available when brand new.

That's my point about Nissan's software being the most honest of the lot.

People thinking their batteries haven't degraded after X years/miles is crazy.

Soarer

Soarer wrote: »

So you honestly believe your battery, at that age, that mileage, and that amount of charges, hasn't dropped capacity by at least 1%?

Oh it surely could have and if I can find my original battery ah reading when I got it I'll let u know.

The cell cycle life for the 33 Kwh is pretty amazing to be honest, even beats LiFeP04, LifeP04 is about 1000 Cycles to 70% , the Samsung SDI cells are about 2000 to 80%. again, I'll dig up the specs from the manufacturer.

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

That's my point about Nissan's software being the most honest of the lot.

People thinking their batteries haven't degraded after X years/miles is crazy.

I don't think they are the most honest, they don't develop or support Leafspy!


I agree 0 deg is nonsense

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh it surely could have and if I can find my original battery ah reading when I got it I'll let u know.

The cell cycle life for the 33 Kwh is pretty amazing to be honest, even beats LiFeP04, LifeP04 is about 1000 Cycles to 70% , the Samsung SDI cells are about 2000 to 80%. again, I'll dig up the specs from the manufacturer.

Yes but it cannot have 0 degradation.

Black_Knight

September1 wrote: »

I'm not sure how CCS makes a difference. There are 7 locations (at Nissan dealerships) where you can use Chademo only and then in most locations both DC systems can be used. Ionity which is currently only provider with CSS-only charging would have 4 locations in total.

I've no experience of the nissan dealer chargers, but i'd assume they use these to charge their own cars. No guarantee they'd be available.

As for the other chargers, yes, most have both Chademo and CCS (ESB and the few EasyGo rapid chargers), but these are maxed out at 50KW/hr. Ionity, and their rapid expansion into Ireland over the last 6 months are software locked to 175KW/hr from what i've heard, but can go up to 350KW/hr if needed. There's also multiple of them at each charging station. Saved me waiting on a Kona charging in Cashel the other day. Nipped over to the ionity charger, and lashed the electrons into the car!

I can't envisage companies continuing to invest in Nissan Leaf chargers (chademo), when every other new car out there is using CCS.

slave1

KCross wrote: »

Thats alot of rapid charging. Basically rapid charged every 2-3 days... maybe more if its been parked up for a while. Was it a Taxi?

93% SOH seems in the right ball park though. Were you expecting 100%?

No, private sale, not a taxi, just a commuter car I'd imagine, I was not expecting 100% from the L40 but seeing the 93% has made me step back as my current L30 has way better battery stats than that so is it worth the splurge on a battery that has not yet got a proven 2-3year degradation.
I suspect the number of fast charges is the cause and these are mostly free in the UK as most Nissan dealers have rapids and do not charge, some are accessible from the street so guys are charging after hours even

KCross

Black_Knight wrote: »

I've no experience of the nissan dealer chargers, but i'd assume they use these to charge their own cars. No guarantee they'd be available.

They do use them for their own demo EV's but its not like they have loads of them. The Nissan chargers are generally available but the main issue is you dont know until you get there as they have no live status on the apps.

Black_Knight wrote: »

As for the other chargers, yes, most have both Chademo and CCS (ESB and the few EasyGo rapid chargers), but these are maxed out at 50KW/hr. Ionity, and their rapid expansion into Ireland over the last 6 months are software locked to 175KW/hr from what i've heard, but can go up to 350KW/hr if needed.

Doesnt really matter if you are a Leaf owner as they can only take 50kW max anyway.

Black_Knight wrote: »

There's also multiple of them at each charging station. Saved me waiting on a Kona charging in Cashel the other day. Nipped over to the ionity charger, and lashed the electrons into the car!

Thats the main problem with the current infrastructure.... single point of failure. Hopefully eCars will get the finger out and start putting in new multi bay hubs in the next 12 months.

Black_Knight wrote: »

I can't envisage companies continuing to invest in Nissan Leaf chargers (chademo), when every other new car out there is using CCS.

Ionity, I think, is the only one that isnt supporting Chademo and obviously they wouldnt since Ionity is funded by the CCS companies.

eCars are, and will continue, to support Chademo for the foreseeable future.

Also bear in mind that if you are putting in a rapid the main cost is in getting the site and the electrical supply.... having a Chademo cable hanging off it is not a major expense and it opens up your service to all the Leaf drivers who will be in the majority for quite a few years yet.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

They do use them for their own demo EV's but its not like they have loads of them. The Nissan chargers are generally available but the main issue is you dont know until you get there as they have no live status on the apps.




Doesnt really matter if you are a Leaf owner as they can only take 50kW max anyway.




Thats the main problem with the current infrastructure.... single point of failure. Hopefully eCars will get the finger out and start putting in new multi bay hubs in the next 12 months.




Ionity, I think, is the only one that isnt supporting Chademo and obviously they wouldnt since Ionity is funded by the CCS companies.

eCars are, and will continue, to support Chademo for the foreseeable future.

Also bear in mind that if you are putting in a rapid the main cost is in getting the site and the electrical supply.... having a Chademo cable hanging off it is not a major expense and it opens up your service to all the Leaf drivers who will be in the majority for quite a few years yet.

Ionity, Electrify America , fastned and other private operators are either not supporting Chademo at all, or downgrading it so that there's say 4*150kW CCS and one 50kW chademo
.
It's a short term thing, in 5 years chademo will be obsolete.

slave1

KCross wrote: »

Doesnt really matter if you are a Leaf owner as they can only take 50kW max anyway.

Upcoming L60+ is 100kW charging capabilty

krissovo

Black_Knight wrote: »

I've no experience of the nissan dealer chargers, but i'd assume they use these to charge their own cars. No guarantee they'd be available.

Nissan are actually quite good I found, certainly the 3 dealers I have charged in. Give them a call and they will clear a space for you to come charger and explain where it is.

zilog_jones

Soarer wrote: »

That was just a frivolous comment.

The more pertinent one was their software must be able to tell how many charges the car has had.

I'm sure it does, but they probably don't care. They'll plug it in, perform whatever required tests and will just look for "computer says yes/no", it's not in their interest to extract the particular data. It's either "fine" or there is some issue that will be covered by the warranty.

And the salesman certainly won't care - they'll just wait for the buyer who doesn't ask complicated questions.

Old diesel

For all its faults the Leaf is always number 1 or 2 EV in terms of sales.

So the demand for Chademo will be there for some time to come.

Ionity won't supply as funded by makers of CCS cars.

But for other providers - they can deliver chademo without issues .

It does make wider sense to take a view that CCS is a more secure option.

But stopping support for one of the top 2 EVs for sales in Ireland would be totally dumb for non Ionity Charge point providers imo.

Old diesel

What will drive a reduction in chademo availability in my view is a reduction in Leaf numbers on the road over the long term

That certainly is not happening yet - very much the opposite in fact

ELM327

slave1 wrote: »

Upcoming L60+ is 100kW charging capabilty

MIght as well be 1000kW, no chademo stations (less than 10) exist in the EU/EEA that support >50kW chademo

Black_Knight

ELM327 wrote: »

MIght as well be 1000kW, no chademo stations (less than 10) exist in the EU/EEA that support >50kW chademo

The Lotus hypercar EV can charge to 100% in 9 minutes! On a charger that doesn't exist. People lap up the hype though.
Leaf can charge at 100KW!? Shut up and take my money! :rolleyes:

unkel

Old diesel wrote: »

But stopping support for one of the top 2 EVs for sales in Ireland would be totally dumb for non Ionity Charge point providers imo.

Nobody is suggesting stopping support for CHAdeMO. The current public CHAdeMO chargers should be maintained. That said, I don't think it is equitable if tax payers money to be spend on new chargers for any standard that is not the norm (CCS)

If any EV manufacturer wants to use their own charging system, they can install their own chargers, like Tesla. And even Tesla have now decided to go CCS.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting stopping support for CHAdeMO. The current public CHAdeMO chargers should be maintained. That said, I don't think it is equitable if tax payers money to be spend on new chargers for any standard that is not the norm (CCS)

What taxpayers money are you referring to? The money given to eCars?

A tiny tiny portion of that would be for supporting Chademo cables. The vast majority of that money will be used for site civil works and buying/commissioning the new rapids. The extra Chademo cable is pocket change.

If we support the government giving €10k grants for Leaf's we should surely support a charging network to support them?

Look at the big picture, not the cost of a Chademo cable!

slave1

slave1 wrote: »

...seeing the 93% has made me step back as my current L30 has way better battery stats than that so is it worth the splurge on a battery that has not yet got a proven 2-3year degradation.

As mentioned in the other thread our April 2018 car is also at 93.XX% and looks like every single L40 out there are currently following some programmed curve down with slow downward curve and then larger steps down every 3 month anniversary from the date of manufacture/first activation. It doesn't seem to matter if they have lots of rapid charging or not.

I personally expect a battery firmware upgrade similar to L30 sometime in the next couple of years as so far there has not been an actual noticeable reduction in range at least in our car that now has 38000 km on the clock. I suspect that Nissan are currently monitoring the battery performance and are going to fine tune the algorithms once the first cars are nearing the 85 percent SOH where the 1st capacity bar will drop and there is more date available.

Old diesel

unkel wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting stopping support for CHAdeMO. The current public CHAdeMO chargers should be maintained. That said, I don't think it is equitable if tax payers money to be spend on new chargers for any standard that is not the norm (CCS)

If any EV manufacturer wants to use their own charging system, they can install their own chargers, like Tesla. And even Tesla have now decided to go CCS.

Chademo right now IS part of the norm.

35 percent of EVs sold up to end of July use the standard.

Nissan are in 2nd place to Hyundai by only 60 cars - and that's 60 out of 2 k EVs between the two makes.

It's part of the norm right now even if you are unhappy with Nissan using the standard.

This unhappiness doesn't alter the fact that Chademo is right now part of the norm

September1

Black_Knight wrote: »

I can't envisage companies continuing to invest in Nissan Leaf chargers (chademo), when every other new car out there is using CCS.

They will, those cars are still a large portion of pool of customers so there is commercial advantage to supporting it.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

What taxpayers money are you referring to? The money given to eCars?

A tiny tiny portion of that would be for supporting Chademo cables. The vast majority of that money will be used for site civil works and buying/commissioning the new rapids. The extra Chademo cable is pocket change.

If we support the government giving €10k grants for Leaf's we should surely support a charging network to support them?

Look at the big picture, not the cost of a Chademo cable!

Very little Irish taxpayer money went from Government into eCars.
The pilot project was funded by the TEN-T EU project and (i believe) by using a small amount of the pso levy.

September1 wrote: »

They will, those cars are still a large portion of pool of customers so there is commercial advantage to supporting it.

For now.
But will private companies now install chademo at extra cost, knowing that in 3-5-7 years it is a dead standard? They won't make enough ROE.

kanuseeme

Can CCS support Vehicle to grid? I know chademo does. Mitsubishi has it in japan and say they will roll it out in Europe.

ELM327

kanuseeme wrote: »

Can CCS support Vehicle to grid? I know chademo does. Mitsubishi has it in japan and say they will roll it out in Europe.

Not yet
https://insideevs.com/news/342354/charin-ccs-combo-standard-to-offer-v2g-by-2025/


Interestingly, all toyota hydrogen fool cell cars come with chademo for v2g

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Very little Irish taxpayer money went from Government into eCars.
The pilot project was funded by the TEN-T EU project and (i believe) by using a small amount of the pso levy.

I think unkel is referring to any new money.... eCars are getting €20m (iirc) from the Climate Action fund and that is effectively tax payers money.

ELM327 wrote: »

But will private companies now install chademo at extra cost, knowing that in 3-5-7 years it is a dead standard? They won't make enough ROE.

What is the cost differential between a single CCS unit and a dual head unit?

Unless its thousands per unit a private operator would be mad not to invest in a Chademo cable.

kanuseeme wrote: »

Can CCS support Vehicle to grid? I know chademo does. Mitsubishi has it in japan and say they will roll it out in Europe.

Not yet, but I vaguely remember reading that they plan to have it for 2025 and then you'd have to wait for products to be developed around that so its a bit away I'd say.

Chademo supports it already even in 24kWh Leaf's and there are pilot projects in the UK using it so they are well ahead of CCS in that regard.

liamog

I would of thought Type 2 Vehicle to Grid is a more likely solution.
CCS for rapid charging where the car is connected for short periods, Type 2 for slow charging, and using the battery to provide energy back to the grid.

Renault have a pilot project https://insideevs.com/news/343510/renault-starts-piloting-v2g-charging-using-ac/

unkel

Sion EV has Type 2 V2V / V2G / V2H built in as standard. All EVs should have bi-directional AC as standard. DC V2G (either CCS or CHAdeMO) is nonsense, no house can take that powah and it would be ridiculously expensive to implement (with no need for it). Killing a fly with a sledgehammer.

September1

ELM327 wrote: »

For now.
But will private companies now install chademo at extra cost, knowing that in 3-5-7 years it is a dead standard? They won't make enough ROE.

I think as market demands triple head chargers they actually might be cheaper than dedicated ones.


I checked some prices and it does not seem to be that expensive:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/50kw-Chademo-CCS-DC-and-AC_60824036315.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.17.68b1418fozUyQ2&s=p
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/60KW-portable-DC-CHAdeMO-CCS-fast_50046042351.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.16.569a71b4j1mF25


and to comapre a signle standard charger:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/50-kilowatt-CHADEMO-CCS-fast-charger_60500473086.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.120.68b1418fozUyQ2
or
https://www.ladesystemtechnik.de/ev-plug-technologies/setec-dc-ladegeraet-10kw-mit-chademo-oder-ccs-adapter-153


There is not much of price difference.

DrPhilG

slave1 wrote: »

I don't use pubic network

Probably for the best, sounds unhygienic.