The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

bruschi

Tombo2001 wrote: »

That's interesting - I suppose ultimately the difficulty with the conversation around financials is that we have a lot of imperfect information.

By comparison for example the national lottery publishes each and every grant it hands out, its obvious then if something is not right or looks out of place.

That doesn't happen at least on this discussion on boards, because simply of absence of information to draw any real conclusions.

those grants mentioned there were sports capital grants and they were all fully published. I do recall a discussion at the time about the disparity between so many Dublin clubs getting the maximum allocation and virtually no where else. As Happyilylost said, it is very hard to get grants in rural clubs. I'm not sure why, or I'm not sure what reasons are given or not, but there does seem to be a big absence of what is going on outside of Dublin as if the likes of paid GPOs or having fully functional bars in big clubhouses are the norm.

Just to respond to your other point about the GPO/GDA, one coach will not coach all those kids. But that is not their role. Its about improving the clubs structures, about improving the coaching practices and providing the amateur coaches with templates and plans about how to develop kids for the future. Being able to contribute to strategic plans and go to schools and coach there or help out with school plans and have a direct club/school link. Its a huge resource to have, albeit dependant on the coach being capable and the club having their own resources to compliment the role.

edit: Tombo, this was the discussion previously. Obviously it started some links to the same tiresome debate, but did raise eyebrows at the time:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057701711

TrueGael

omega man wrote: »

While some of you are on to the GAA querying our games development funding feel free to also ask about the 100m spent on pairc ui chaoimh.

1) Cork County Board aren't getting it for free - they are funding a very significant chunk which has/is/will hamper their capacity to fund GDOs and their IC Setups until such time it is fully paid for

2)the old stadium was a death trap, I know you don't know about anything other than almighty Croker but it was a death trap

3) Its the 2nd biggest city and Cork is the greatest county with the greatest tradition, heritage,culture and history in Gaelic Games and the idea that they wouldn't be able to host major games is mind-numbing

4) If the DCB had to pay a huge chunk of Croke Parks redevelopment and upkeep costs they wouldn't be able to pay all the professionals in their backroom team and utilise altitude chambers and cryotherapy and all the other enhancers (i.e players wouldn't be fresh as a daisy after 75 mins)

elefant

Deleted User wrote: »

Bingo, people don't want a level playing field at all, they want to see their county win more, which is impossible at the moment.

The playing field will never, ever be level; there are inherent advantages to being the county team based in the capital that nobody can change. These advantages will continue to grow due to urbanisation.

I'm not concerned that Galway won't win anything next year. I don't think any amount of funding would change that for now. But I am concerned that we will have Dublin winning 7+ championships every decade forever from now on. That's terrible for the sport, and it's a problem for the GAA.

Tombo2001

bruschi wrote: »

those grants mentioned there were sports capital grants and they were all fully published. I do recall a discussion at the time about the disparity between so many Dublin clubs getting the maximum allocation and virtually no where else. As Happyilylost said, it is very hard to get grants in rural clubs. I'm not sure why, or I'm not sure what reasons are given or not, but there does seem to be a big absence of what is going on outside of Dublin as if the likes of paid GPOs or having fully functional bars in big clubhouses are the norm.

Just to respond to your other point about the GPO/GDA, one coach will not coach all those kids. But that is not their role. Its about improving the clubs structures, about improving the coaching practices and providing the amateur coaches with templates and plans about how to develop kids for the future. Being able to contribute to strategic plans and go to schools and coach there or help out with school plans and have a direct club/school link. Its a huge resource to have, albeit dependant on the coach being capable and the club having their own resources to compliment the role.

They are all very good points.

What must be important, and part of any discussion, is club size.

A lot of Dublin clubs are mega clubs. That's not necessarily by design, but because of space constraints.

Nonetheless, a lot of Dublin clubs have more than 1000 members, whereas the largest clubs in Donegal or Mayo would not have 1000 members.

If you look at Meath for example, Donaghmore Ashbourne has as far as I know the most members in the county, but 30 years ago it would have been tiny. Its facilities are fantastic and as good as any Dublin club. Likewise Ratoath. Whereas in Navan, there is a 'tradition' with 3 or 4 clubs, and they wouldn't hit the same numbers.

bruschi

Deleted User wrote: »

Bingo, people don't want a level playing field at all, they want to see their county win more, which is impossible at the moment.

Well I disagree with this and also the previous posters assertion about Mayo/Kerry/Meath. I'm not from either county. In football terms, my county is ranked pretty much dead last.

All I want is my county to have the access to the same resources being provided to Dublin by the GAA for more than 15 years. If the knock on effect is we improve, well and good.

But the main objective should be increased club participation, particularly in urban areas outside of Dublin, and better facilities and coaching structures for kids to play in their clubs.

Tombo2001

elefant wrote: »

The playing field will never, ever be level; there are inherent advantages to being the county team based in the capital that nobody can change. These advantages will continue to grow due to urbanisation.

I'm not concerned that Galway won't win anything next year. I don't think any amount of funding would change that for now. But I am concerned that we will have Dublin winning 7+ championships every decade forever from now on. That's terrible for the sport, and it's a problem for the GAA.

I think this is undeniable - once the sheen wears off the five in a row, Dublin fans will have to acknowledge this also.

The question is how to restructure it without destroying it.

GAA has responded to player pressure/ fan pressure in the past, and it hasn't always improved things.

Tombo2001

bruschi wrote: »

Well I disagree with this and also the previous posters assertion about Mayo/Kerry/Meath. I'm not from either county. In football terms, my county is ranked pretty much dead last.

All I want is my county to have the access to the same resources being provided to Dublin by the GAA for more than 15 years. If the knock on effect is we improve, well and good.

But the main objective should be increased club participation, particularly in urban areas outside of Dublin, and better facilities and coaching structures for kids to play in their clubs.

That's fair - but if your local club has 200 members - then which Dublin club are you comparing it to?

Because there is an economy of scale with these things.

You need X to build a new Astro pitch or whatever; there needs to be a certain amount of activity to justify this. All things being equal, a larger club with more members can (I) raise independent financing more easily and (ii) make a stronger case for a grant on the basis of how many it will impact.

The other thing - the issue of football or hurling doesn't come into it when we are talking about grants in Dublin as nearly every club is a dual club. People talk about 'financial doping' and the football success but half the investment goes into Hurling.

odyssey06

bruschi wrote: »

those grants mentioned there were sports capital grants and they were all fully published. I do recall a discussion at the time about the disparity between so many Dublin clubs getting the maximum allocation and virtually no where else. As Happyilylost said, it is very hard to get grants in rural clubs. I'm not sure why, or I'm not sure what reasons are given or not, but there does seem to be a big absence of what is going on outside of Dublin as if the likes of paid GPOs or having fully functional bars in big clubhouses are the norm.

iirc the news article at the time it mentioned minister Shane Ross? The funding was per capita per county. Dublin sent in fewer applications but those that did got their full requested amount. This probably reflects concentration of fewer but larger clubs in Dublin.
If you are talking about GAA rather than government grants ignore the above.

tritium

TrueGael wrote: »

AIG deal is a million a year, but shur if Carlow were smarter they'd be able to get AIG millions as well

Pretty sure you’re overstating that, I understood it was 4m over 5 years for all dublin GAA. Still, a million quid huh? That’s sounds like the amount Kerry Group wrote a cheque for to support the COE. That’s before you get into what the pump into regular sponsorship, which estimates seem to put at about 3/4 million a year. And that’s a relationship that’s been going on for decades.Maybe Carlow should have copied that? Or indeed any of the Munster teams who’ve been served up to the financially doped Kerry juggernaut for the last century or so

But of course it was all equal before dublin came along...

bruschi

Tombo2001 wrote: »

They are all very good points.

What must be important, and part of any discussion, is club size.

A lot of Dublin clubs are mega clubs. That's not necessarily by design, but because of space constraints.

Nonetheless, a lot of Dublin clubs have more than 1000 members, whereas the largest clubs in Donegal or Mayo would not have 1000 members.

If you look at Meath for example, Donaghmore Ashbourne has as far as I know the most members in the county, but 30 years ago it would have been tiny. Its facilities are fantastic and as good as any Dublin club. Likewise Ratoath. Whereas in Navan, there is a 'tradition' with 3 or 4 clubs, and they wouldn't hit the same numbers.

Absolutely agree about the club size, the bigger clubs will have the resources to be able to pay back their loans/funding and have structures in place to sustain it, unlike smaller rural clubs. They also will have more demand for more pitches etc. But, it still shows the difference in mentality of what some clubs have, and some dont, but yet these are the clubs that feed into county teams where it is supposed to be at a level playing field.

being honest, I think the "mega club" structure in some Dublin clubs is a hindrance to itself and the county. A discussion for another place, but a club having multiple teams in age grades is hard to keep sustainable and retain numbers. A lot of them are doing really well and make it work, but if you are on a third or 4th string minor team, it must be very hard to keep going, whereas you could be on a first or second if there was other clubs in the locality. Much like the Dublin county split, the super club split wont happen either. And not just Dublin either the likes of Portlaoise with one club in the town and more like it that easily would sustain more clubs and give more opportunities for expansion of facilities and opportunities for more players to be able to play.

Tombo2001

bruschi wrote: »

Absolutely agree about the club size, the bigger clubs will have the resources to be able to pay back their loans/funding and have structures in place to sustain it, unlike smaller rural clubs. They also will have more demand for more pitches etc. But, it still shows the difference in mentality of what some clubs have, and some dont, but yet these are the clubs that feed into county teams where it is supposed to be at a level playing field.

being honest, I think the "mega club" structure in some Dublin clubs is a hindrance to itself and the county. A discussion for another place, but a club having multiple teams in age grades is hard to keep sustainable and retain numbers. A lot of them are doing really well and make it work, but if you are on a third or 4th string minor team, it must be very hard to keep going, whereas you could be on a first or second if there was other clubs in the locality. Much like the Dublin county split, the super club split wont happen either. And not just Dublin either the likes of Portlaoise with one club in the town and more like it that easily would sustain more clubs and give more opportunities for expansion of facilities and opportunities for more players to be able to play.

I'd agree with you.

Also, the streaming at underage in my view leads to a lot of problems and a lot of frustrated children. Its fairly subjective as to who should be on an A, B, C or D team when we are talking about 9 year olds.

But it is what it is. Its not possible to set up a new club in Marino or Clontarf or Stillorgan. The space isn't there. The only new club in recent years is Ranelagh, and they don't have a pitch.

Indeed a big part of the success of GAA in Dublin is that clubs invested in the 1970s/80s or whenever, have the pitch, have the clubhouse at the centre of community - whereas you can have as many soccer clubs as you like, but they will be in the same public parks.

In other words - they are the only sports clubs that can scale up as the population expands.

bruschi

odyssey06 wrote: »

iirc the news article at the time it mentioned minister Shane Ross? The funding was per capita per county. Dublin sent in fewer applications but those that did got their full requested amount. This probably reflects concentration of fewer but larger clubs in Dublin.
If you are talking about GAA rather than government grants ignore the above.

cant remember if Shane Ross was involved. Probably was, garnering some votes out of it sure. They were the government sports capital grants. It just looked very much at odds to the rest of the country.

the reason I brought it back up, was just to highlight the Ballymun Kickhams tweet that other clubs have access to the same grants, but the history shows that clubs outside of Dublin dont get the same amount or volume. A minor point really as in fairness to the club, they have done some really good work over the past 20 or more years, particularly in comparison of some of the clubs who would be around their general area who have not been as productive or successful.

blanch152

TrueGael wrote: »

Because playing against kids in empty Croker is the same as against an athletic Juggernaut like the Golden Child. Good lord the ridiculous things ye will say to divert from the doping.......


And to bring up the COE for Kerry is beyond laughable, it had to be FUNDRAISED for like the other COEs around the country to be which involved HARD WORK over many years

I know ye are used to getting everything handed to ye but that isn't the reality for ordinary gaels outside the

The Kerry CoE was fundraised????

https://www.sportsnewsireland.com/gaa/gaa-kerry-gaa-closing-in-on-e5-8-million-funding-target-for-centre-of-excellence/

As far as I can see, if you consider handouts from central GAA, the Munster Council, the National Lottery and the county sponsor totalling around €4m, as equating to fundraising, then what's your problem with Dublin?

Tombo2001

bruschi wrote: »

cant remember if Shane Ross was involved. Probably was, garnering some votes out of it sure. They were the government sports capital grants. It just looked very much at odds to the rest of the country.

the reason I brought it back up, was just to highlight the Ballymun Kickhams tweet that other clubs have access to the same grants, but the history shows that clubs outside of Dublin dont get the same amount or volume. A minor point really as in fairness to the club, they have done some really good work over the past 20 or more years, particularly in comparison of some of the clubs who would be around their general area who have not been as productive or successful.

Depends on your definition of success....How is their hurling team getting on?

bruschi

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Depends on your definition of success....How is their hurling team getting on?

ah true. To be honest, success is keeping a huge amount of kids in what was traditionally a tough neighbourhood playing games and keeping out of trouble. The fact they got success with trophies in football is a bonus.

I havent a clue what they are at with hurling!

Just on a previous point of yours, anything I'd equate to would be in dual status too. Pretty much every club in Wexford is dual and even single code clubs like Oulart the Ballagh just won a county U13 football championship this week. Probably to our detriment, but Wexford is very much dual with every club.

omega man

TrueGael wrote: »

1) Cork County Board aren't getting it for free - they are funding a very significant chunk which has/is/will hamper their capacity to fund GDOs and their IC Setups until such time it is fully paid for

2)the old stadium was a death trap, I know you don't know about anything other than almighty Croker but it was a death trap

3) Its the 2nd biggest city and Cork is the greatest county with the greatest tradition, heritage,culture and history in Gaelic Games and the idea that they wouldn't be able to host major games is mind-numbing

4) If the DCB had to pay a huge chunk of Croke Parks redevelopment and upkeep costs they wouldn't be able to pay all the professionals in their backroom team and utilise altitude chambers and cryotherapy and all the other enhancers (i.e players wouldn't be fresh as a daisy after 75 mins)

The way you talk about Cork there is in such contrast to the way you portray Dublin GAA. It’s actually disheartening considering the great things that have happened here over the last decade or so with regard to the sports rise from its knees.
Other posters here have raised their genuine concerns about the GAA funding strategy but you just dislike Dublin for some reason.

RedDevil55

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Again, why split Dublin to level the playing field? Why not amalgamate counties together? I mean, If you split Dublin in four, do they all then play in Leinster? That would mean there'd be 15 counties versus 6 in Munster. Why isn't that seen as an unfair advantage?
.

If you read my previous posts, I said I didn't want Dublin split but if we continue down the current road it's inevitable.

Removing the Croke Park advantage and increasing funding to other counties is what I'm in favour of.

Tombo2001

bruschi wrote: »

ah true. To be honest, success is keeping a huge amount of kids in what was traditionally a tough neighbourhood playing games and keeping out of trouble. The fact they got success with trophies in football is a bonus.

I havent a clue what they are at with hurling!

Just on a previous point of yours, anything I'd equate to would be in dual status too. Pretty much every club in Wexford is dual and even single code clubs like Oulart the Ballagh just won a county U13 football championship this week. Probably to our detriment, but Wexford is very much dual with every club.

The hurling club in Ballymun is Setanta, its one of the few very small clubs in Dublin - its hurling only and seems to have a very dedicated membership. But nothing like the same resources of other clubs.

Tombo2001

bruschi wrote: »

ah true. To be honest, success is keeping a huge amount of kids in what was traditionally a tough neighbourhood playing games and keeping out of trouble. The fact they got success with trophies in football is a bonus.

I havent a clue what they are at with hurling!

Just on a previous point of yours, anything I'd equate to would be in dual status too. Pretty much every club in Wexford is dual and even single code clubs like Oulart the Ballagh just won a county U13 football championship this week. Probably to our detriment, but Wexford is very much dual with every club.

100% agree, and I think that's far more important than a county winning something.

RedDevil55

omega man wrote: »

Everyone is doing their nut over 18m (over 10 years) but they can throw 100m on one county stadium and that’s a strawman argument!

We don’t have a free stadium in Croker and in fact our fans through gate receipts over the years probably funded the rebuild of the National stadium.

You do realise that cork are probably looking at €50k monthly repayments for the next 30 years in order to pay back the stadium debt?

Of course this isn't something Dublin have to deal with.

TrueGael

TrueGael wrote: »

.....Cork is the greatest county with the greatest tradition, heritage,culture and history in Gaelic Games.....

.....according to Cork people :pac: and people think the Dubs are arrogant :eek:

Never mind the fact that the football team are routinely and regularly abandoned by the Good People of Cork(TM) because they've been playing second fiddle to Kerry for practically a century, and the natives declare hurling as the only true Irish sport.

Someone on here recently raged about the mythical rivalry between Cork and Kerry because that's all it is.....a myth. There is no rivalry. Kerry have as many All-Irelands in football as Cork have Munster titles.

blanch152

TrueGael wrote: »

1) Cork County Board aren't getting it for free - they are funding a very significant chunk which has/is/will hamper their capacity to fund GDOs and their IC Setups until such time it is fully paid for

2)the old stadium was a death trap, I know you don't know about anything other than almighty Croker but it was a death trap

3) Its the 2nd biggest city and Cork is the greatest county with the greatest tradition, heritage,culture and history in Gaelic Games and the idea that they wouldn't be able to host major games is mind-numbing

4) If the DCB had to pay a huge chunk of Croke Parks redevelopment and upkeep costs they wouldn't be able to pay all the professionals in their backroom team and utilise altitude chambers and cryotherapy and all the other enhancers (i.e players wouldn't be fresh as a daisy after 75 mins)

I think this particular post says a lot about your values and the values of Dublin GAA in contrasting ways.

You are eulogising the Cork County Board for their sacrifices in building a big white elephant of a stadium only to be used for elite inter-county games and demanding that Dublin GAA follow suit.

You are criticising Dublin GAA for concentrating on the kids, for putting in place arrangements to bring GAA to the schools and to the communities, for building up the GAA at community level.

Tombo2001

The thing is

GAA needs a strong Cork now more than ever.

But Cork just isn't delivering....

;-)

Karma for all those short puck outs.

omega man

RedDevil55 wrote: »

If you read my previous posts, I said I didn't want Dublin split but if we continue down the current road it's inevitable.

Removing the Croke Park advantage and increasing funding to other counties is what I'm in favour of.

How would you propose to address the croke Park ‘advantage’? Croke Park was built in the capital but you’d seem to rather see it go unused, why?
It wasn’t much of an advantage when Kerry and Tyrone were handing out hidings to us back in the 00’s was it? Ultimately you’ll just deny other county players the opportunity to play in croke Park surely. Anyway I’d love if we played our home league games in Parnell. As for championship and super 8’s the more road trips the better but an empty croke Park is not cost effective.

How do you address the funding to make it a level playing field for every single county in every code? Is the funding to increase participation like in dublin or is it to make their senior teams more competitive? There are so many variables, it’s not as simple as redirect Dublin’s money without a negative impact somewhere else.

shockframe

The Cork county board were complacent at the beginning of the 00s and completely negligent by the end of the 00s. A county with huge resources and no lack of multinationals

Dublin on the other hand had obviously got it spot on in its adminstration and ultimately on the pitch.

You reap what you sow as they say.

Happyilylost

shockframe wrote: »

The Cork county board were complacent at the beginning of the 00s and completely negligent by the end of the 00s. A county with huge resources and no lack of multinationals

Dublin on the other hand had obviously got it spot on in its adminstration and ultimately on the pitch.

You reap what you so as they say.

This is another point I think is worth discussion. County boards. For those that haven't worked it out I'm from Galway. So I don't think I need to elaborate on my feelings towards our county board and the shambles that they are.

One of the big things I'll hear at matches are in the pub or general talk about local GAA is the venom people have for our county board. Usually its "why will no one bring out those old f****rs and shoot them". People with no skin in the game will usually reply "sure if it's so easy do it yourself". It's an annoying thing to hear but it has some relevance. I will only speak from experience so again I could be way off the realities of other clubs. I am on the committee of my club. I am mid 30's with no family yet. Even with the lack of family commitments I find running the club massively time consuming. I find myself dealing and planning issues at work. Which I shouldn't. But I do. And I know when my family starts I won't be in a position to continue with it. People always ask why all these old men crowding county boards but in all fairness who else can give up the time with work and a family? I would love to see two/three paid positions on every county board. Instead of having 65 year old Tommy who knows little about the modern GAA you have 35 year old Tommy's son with a degree in business or management/accounting. I'm not sure where funding would come from and I'm not trying to move away from the amateur/volunteer ethos of our game but professionalism in certain aspects of it are needed.

Floppybits

Gael85 wrote: »

They train in Inisfails pitch.

Finally someone cleared that up.

Also I didn't realise that the facilities in DCU or UCD were exclusively for Dublin players, forgive me for think that the facilities were for all the student population of those colleges. I'm sure it is the same at UL and other Universities or colleges or are people saying that once you go outside of Dublin that no gyms exist?

gaffer91

blanch152 wrote: »

What a load of bitter nonsense, particularly the bits I am quoting from your post.

.

There's nothing bitter about the truth and you and your fellow Dubs are the only ones posting nonsense. You realise your arguments are predicated on money having no bearing on sporting outcomes, playing pools being six times the average and playing all games at home having no impact on results? Do you ever sit back and realise how utterly absurd those arguments are?

blanch152 wrote: »

As I keep saying, splitting Kerry, amalgamating other counties and restructuring the competition are what is needed to ensure a level competition. Splitting Dublin would be a part of that overall package. This is immediately rejected by the anti-Dubs because of their own selfish motives.

Dublin need to split because of their unfair advantages i.e financial doping, population etc- I've explained this to you many times previously. It's not just the outcomes- if Dublin didn't win the All Ireland for the next few years they'd still need to be split because of their unfair advantages.

odyssey06 wrote: »

Yep. Here are some facts on that golden era.

Between 2000 and 2010 Kerry won 5 senior AIs and finalists in 3 more.

One set of rules for Kerry. The paper thin agenda in this thread is laughable in its obvious transparency.

Lets not forget the 7 million euros centre of excellence that is always conventiently forgotten about by those pushing that same agenda.

See above- it's Dublin's unfair advantages- financial doping, population, playing at home; that mean they need to be split, not just the outcomes. Comparisons to other counties are meaningless because no other county has the unfair advantages that Dublin do.

The centre of excellence in Kerry is also a red herring- Dublin have received much more beneficial capital expenditure- namely not having to contribute to the building of their de facto home stadium of Croke Park, Abbotstown etc. And also they have much more facilities available to begin with- in DCU etc as others have pointed out. So any discussions of the COE must factor in the multiples of expenditure and capital projects that benefit Dublin.

gaffer91

As above- seriously, all Dubs need to consider their arguments. You are basically arguing that playing at home doesn't give an advantage, having a playing pool 6 times average doesn't help you in a sport where transfers aren't allowed (or at least are extremely difficult and uncommon), having millions more to spend doesn't affect sporting results. These are obviously absurd arguments and you need to just accept that Dublin have unfair advantages.

Just to follow on from this- that's all we're asking you to do i.e recognise that you have unfair advantages and the GAA must take steps to counter them. I have no animosity towards any Dubs and I think it's fair to say if anyone else was in Dublin's shoes and offered a bag of cash and these other advantages, with seemingly no consequences, they would accept them too. So the problem is with the GAA more than Dublin.

Don't be afraid of a split of Dublin. You would not be left without a team to support as you would still be able to support the subdivision of Dublin that you are from. More players from Dublin would get to play at the highest level. And inter-county football wouldn't die a death, which it is currently doing at the moment. It's not cyclical- Dublin's unfair advantages have set the stage for endless dominance unless urgent action is taken.

And lastly, there is no point comparing to Kerry in the 1980s or Kilkenny in the 2000s- these counties did not have the unfair advantages that Dublin enjoy. It is the unfairness that surrounds Dublin GAA, and not just the victories, that are the problem.

I don't really follow soccer but is this unique to Dublin GAA? Do Chelsea/ Man City fans deny their unfair advantages in terms of things like funding? (Awaiting some Dub to wade in with a response about how you can't transfer players in GAA, as if money can't be spent to help a team in any other way).

Floppybits

Thats the biggest load of sh1te that has been posted here. Spilt Dublin, how about Kerry be split or kilkenny after all they nearly did 5 in a row, same for Galway and Mayo. If you split one you split them all. How about counties with small populations joining with other small counties to get a bigger playing pool and become more competitive?