The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

Charles Babbage

Lots of talk here about how Tyrone, Armagh, Derry, Meath etc have to improve their game. But as long as you have one team with a greater pick than all the other in the Super 8s put together you are not going to have an equal competition. Money is merely a manifestation of this.

Gachla

keane2097

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Tipp a great side largely built from thier minor win (the best in thier history I would say) - decimated by going to the hurlers though.
Roscommon have thier best side in decades I think.
Monaghan definitely had thier best side in decades - great manager too

(I was always looking out for the Rossies/Tipp they were my 'second' team at one time or another)

But yeah, some teams have really let themselves go.
Maybe some overachieved in previous eras like Derry in fairness - what a group they had - Tohill et al
But it is made worse when there is talent there (Kildare, Galway, Cork) and it is faded away not built on or nurtured properly

Tipp had some amazing teams around the time of the War of Independence - the Bloodied Field is a great read about how the Tipp and Dublin teams intertwined with the rebellion around Bloody Sunday. Worth a look if you haven't read it.

Edgware

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Dublin actually robbed that AI it was won against the run of play anyway Kerry were pulling up - coasting

That was only the one to light the spark - cluxton's kick great as it was it was not a well won AI
Kerry were trying to what Dublin do now - slow the game down take the sting out and were caught.

Kerry will never, NEVER, give any other county credit for beating them on the pitch.
Cork won Munster eight times between 1987 and 1999, Tyrone beat them in the Championship, Armagh, Dublin Mayo. All we hear from the Princes of the Pig skin is complaints about referees, injuries, too many matches.
Now their veterans are lining up to criticise Gough in an effort to influence him for the final.

din090782

There is no question that money and population has made a big contribution to sports in the capital. Since the IRFU focused on leinster rugby they've pulled well clear of the rest of the provences. When big investments were put into the hurling, Dublin went from a poor hurling county into a team competing with the best in the country. The football speaks for itself. Its no coincidence that these kind of golden generations are comming along at the same time.
On another note, a lot of the people complaining about the unfairness of money distribution actually support top teams abroad. With this foreign support from both here and around the world, it helped create a massive gap between top premiership sides and the rest of the professional clubs competing. These people have no problem celebrating a Man Utd or Liverpool goal without a thought yet when the shoe is on the other foot, they complain about money when Dublin score against their own county. Is it fair to call this double standards?

cj maxx

din090782 wrote: »

There is no question that money and population has made a big contribution to sports in the capital. Since the IRFU focused on leinster rugby they've pulled well clear of the rest of the provences. When big investments were put into the hurling, Dublin went from a poor hurling county into a team competing with the best in the country. The football speaks for itself. Its no coincidence that these kind of golden generations are comming along at the same time.
On another note, a lot of the people complaining about the unfairness of money distribution actually support top teams abroad. With this foreign support from both here and around the world, it helped create a massive gap between top premiership sides and the rest of the professional clubs competing. These people have no problem celebrating a Man Utd or Liverpool goal without a thought yet when the shoe is on the other foot, they complain about money when Dublin score against their own county. Is it fair to call this double standards?

That has ABSOLUTELY NO bearing in the GAA

MayoAreMagic

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I would imagine a lot of Dublin fans criticized Chelsea and City for buying the league, but are now pretending money has nothing to do with success.

Fair point actually.
Bertie Abramovich! He even has similar shady dealings from his past to boot, 'allegedly'...

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Just saw you running off to the Dublin thread to have a whinge about this thread. Odd to say the least.

I merely commented on what other posters are saying - if you read the original post I responded to.
The fact you find it odd and felt the need to say so - says more about you than me.

gormdubhgorm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Apparently money makes no difference if it's not used to pay salaries. I guess that's it folks, we can wrap it up now.

Again you have just said something that merely indicates strong personal bias, rather than any attempt at meaningful discussion.

cj maxx

din090782 wrote: »

I never said it did. I'm just making the point that when a county are recieving huge money to improve their team they go into defensive mode when questioned about it like Dublin. Like another poster said a lot of dubs would give out about man city, chelsea buying the league but will argue then that Dublin have a golden generation. At the same time people outside of dublin dont question when liverpool and man utd win games but give out when Dublin are funded. Its the different mindsets people have when their team is winning or losing. By the way, I'm with the majority of people on this tread in saying that it is very unfair on the rest of the country and fear for the future of football.

Dublin have a golden generation but as you agree the funding issue is a major driving force

gormdubhgorm

Gachla wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/high-drama-as-dublin-win-under-21-title-1.1246033?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhigh-drama-as-dublin-win-under-21-title-1.1246033

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2012/0506/319859-dubs-crowned-u21-football-champions/


Jim Gavin managerial honours:

Manager Dublin:

All-Ireland Senior Football Championship (5): 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018
Leinster Senior Football Championship (7): 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019
National Football League (5): 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018
O'Byrne Cup (1): 2015
All-Ireland Under-21 Football Championship (3): 2003, 2010, 2012
Leinster Under-21 Football Championship (3): 2003, 2010, 2012

Total = 24 titles





https://twitter.com/roycurtis68/status/1150443250282651651?lang=en

gormdubhgorm

cjmc wrote: »

Dublin have a golden generation but as you agree the funding issue is a major driving force

It was the catalyst for success much like manganese dioxide.
Years of staggering underachievement was unlocked - but only because great men followed through the vision at the helm.
And led the bright blue generation to it's full potential - along with a lot of graft and hard work.

gormdubhgorm

keane2097 wrote: »

Tipp had some amazing teams around the time of the War of Independence - the Bloodied Field is a great read about how the Tipp and Dublin teams intertwined with the rebellion around Bloody Sunday. Worth a look if you haven't read it.

Right thanks - sounds good.

keane2097

Edgware wrote: »

Kerry will never, NEVER, give any other county credit for beating them on the pitch.
Cork won Munster eight times between 1987 and 1999, Tyrone beat them in the Championship, Armagh, Dublin Mayo. All we hear from the Princes of the Pig skin is complaints about referees, injuries, too many matches.
Now their veterans are lining up to criticise Gough in an effort to influence him for the final.

Honestly this sounds like your only exposure to Kerry people is on Twitter or something.

Like anyone else when we lose we contemplate how we could have won or why we were beaten but Christ almighty more often than not when we have been beaten in the last ten years it's been by better teams. Donegal in 2012 no issue, Dublin in 2013 no issue, 2015 no issue, Mayo 2017 we should have won the drawn game but we were destroyed in the second game.

Even 2016 when we had a grievance about the free at the end nobody thinks Dublin weren't way better than us.

We're all football people and we all want to win, you should come down and have a chat in a clubhouse sometime - you'll find we're all fairly OK.

Charles Babbage

Edgware wrote: »

Kerry will never, NEVER, give any other county credit for beating them on the pitch.
.

Kerry give other counties the ultimate credit, they learn from them.

keane2097

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Kerry give other counties the ultimate credit, they learn from them.

Look we're well able to whinge, me no less than anyone, but we're all the same when we're losing.

You can come away from a game having been beaten by a better team and still say we should have had a penalty or whatever. Sure ye all do that when ye're clubs are beaten etc.

There's a discussion to be had about the direction the GAA has gone with regards to funding etc that respects the incredible excellence of the current Dublin team but unfortunately it seems impossible to have in the online points scoring arena.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

tikkahunter wrote: »

Listen your county board are an absolute joke , they stood by while players threw managers under a bus and dictated what players played in finals. You only have yourselves to blame for not picking up a couple of All Irelands in the past 7-8 years. If your county board where any use then they would applied for what ever funding you needed but they didn't so if you want to moan about funding write a letter to them , you had Enda running the country you could have gotten what you want.

"You should have been as corrupt as us" is a strange angle to take.

tikkahunter

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

"You should have been as corrupt as us" is a strange angle to take.

Everything was above board and transparent so how is that corrupt? Just because other county boards sat on their hands and done nothing for their teams it hardly makes Dublin corrupt.

RoyalCelt

thesultan wrote: »

The thing with hurling, they have yet to win an All Ireland in hurling at underage over the last few years . Now they lost three great underage players to football in Costello, Con and Ciaran.

If the hurlers on the football team commited to the hurling I reckon Dublin could win the AI. I'd love to see Con switch codes after doing the 5 in a row.

Have any new GAA clubs been set up recently in the new urban areas like abbot's Town?

Gachla

gormdubhgorm

Gachla wrote: »

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/dublin-finances-argument-413086

But what about the money?

If you are going to equate funding and Dublin GAA success, we should have a closer look.

In 2016, Mayo were the biggest spenders on their county teams with €1.6 million. Behind them, Dublin spent €1.5 million, with Cork, Galway, Tipperary, and Roscommon all over €1 million.

In 2017, Cork were the biggest spenders on their intercounty teams with €1.7 million spent, again closely followed by Dublin, with Mayo, Galway, Limerick, Tipperary and Kerry all over €1 million.

In 2018, it was Galway who topped the list with €1.8 million.

Dublin are obviously among the highest spenders time and time again, but they are not alone. They are also a genuine dual county attempting to compete at both codes. They don't scrimp, but neither do the other contenders.

Their football success is down to just that, football. They are tremendously successful because of the talent and dedication of the group. It's remarkable, but it's not unprecedented.

Kerry were the last team to win four All-Irelands in a row between 1978 and 1981. In the first final of that run, they dethroned All-Ireland champions Dublin by 17 pts. The following year, Dublin were felled by 11 points. In 1980, Roscommon offered the biggest test, beaten by just three. The next year, they had seven to spare against Offaly.

Now, Dublin have done the same as Kerry, but you could argue not as convincingly.

In 2015, Dublin beat Kerry by three points. In 2016, it took two goes to get a margin of one point against Mayo. It was another one point win against Mayo in 2017 before beating Tyrone by six points last year.

That's a collective martin of just 11 points for Dublin in their four in a row. Kerry's comibined total was nearly four times that amount. Was there a collective scratching of heads as to what could be done about Kerry’s dominance? Was there an inquest into the type of grass that was growing in Kerry? Did RTE dig into what type of eggs that the Kerry hens were laying?

My recollection of that time is that all the talk was of how good this Kerry team and their anager, Mick O’Dwyer, were.

But what about the money?

In hurling, Kilkenny have won 11 senior All-Ireland titles since 2000. [/B]How many titles have Dublin hurlers won in that period? How many finals have they competed in during that period? The answer, sadly, is, of course, none. In fact, it is 1938 since Dublin last won a senior hurling title. That's 81 long years ago and there was only one Dublin man, Jim Byrne, in the team. Hardly a unbreakable legacy.

But what about the money?

Dublin have won one minor football All Ireland since 1984. Kerry have won seven, including five in a row completed last year, a run that looks unlikely to stop at five.

But what about the money?

Dublin last won a minor hurling All Ireland in 1965. Since then Kilkenny have won 14 titles, Galway 12, Cork 11, and Tipperary eight.

But what about the money?

Dublin Camogie haven’t won an All Ireland since 1984. In the period since then Cork have won 14 titles, Kilkenny have won nine, Tipperary five and Wexford four. Dublin has not even contested a final in that time.

But what about the money?

Between 2005 and 2016, the Cork ladies' footballers have won 11 all Ireland titles, five in a row (2005 -2009) and six in a row (2011-2016), with only Dublin stopping them in 2010 from winning TWELVE IN A ROW.

But what about the money?

The GAA in Dublin isn't thriving in the way the national media would lead you to believe. It has huge problems. Large areas of the city have no GAA at all.

Finglas, with a bigger population than Leitrim, has only one GAA club, Erins Isle. Clondalkin, with a population of nearly 50,000 also has only one club, Round Towers, Jim Gavin's club. Neither club has competed at the top level of Dublin GAA for many years.

gormdubhgorm

http://sportforbusiness.com/where-dublin-actually-falls-behind-in-funding/

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Some of my posts have been deleted with no explanation.

gormdubhgorm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Some of my posts have been deleted with no explanation.

There is no point if certain posters do not wish to engage and give detailed explanations, why should I put in the effort where it is not responded to in kind?

I have responded to all sorts of guff on this thread which is just mean spirited in nature.

Also from what I have have read was that it was the mid 2000's Dublin received the main sum of thier funding. Which then is included by those who wish to massage the figures disingenuously over a longer period.

It is basically a con job, a spin put out there to denigrate a great side, in a great era.
When the theories are questioned and the finances are probably analysed - I noticed there is a lot of discomfort and it resorts to playground stuff.
Man City comparisons etc.
That is the level of individual that are involved in the spin much like the 'huge crowd' :rolleyes: in Kerry who turned out for the David Gough protest.
It is impossible to take them seriously.

It is argued that Dublin have a population advantage for example - but this is never viewed in terms of per capita in Dublin - and the vast area that the DCB has to promote Gaelic games in.

MayoAreMagic

I read your first point there gormdubhgorm and straight away, it was clear that it was a disingenuous one. Mayo played far more games than the second biggest spenders that year, so obviously they are going to have more costs due to the expenses incurred - the same expenses that the second highest spendig team; dublin don not have.
And yet, if you calculate the per game spend, despite all these extra fixed costs, Dublin still spent more than them. Case closed on that one - 100% disproven. But no doubt you will regurgitate it again at a later date.

I assume the rest of your point follows the same biased massaging of facts, so I didnt bother reading it.

gormdubhgorm

For instance I have yet to see a comparison done where Dublin's funding is compared to the level of income they generate for the GAA

https://www.gaa.ie/news/gaa-distributes-record-million-counties-and-clubs/

Gate receipts provided over half of the GAA’s income in 2017 (€34.4 Million), and were up by €4 million on 2016’s gate receipts.

This was thanks to the average attendance per championship match (in the All-Ireland series) growing to 22,000, helped significantly by the All-Ireland series attendance figures growing by 24 per cent (180,000).


The knock-out stages of the All-Ireland championships remain as vital as ever as a revenue generator for the Association because they ultimately finance the majority of matches and competitions which aren’t profit making.

For example, no Allianz Football League or Hurling League match turned a profit in 2017, nor did any Ring, Rackard, or Meagher Cup match.





So from that we see that football generates the most gate receipts for the GAA.
Now it does not take a genius to figure out that Dublin are critical to bringing in the gate receipts as they attract the biggest attendances.



That is still the case even with a 30% fall of attendances in leinster this year- due to a superb Dublin team and and mismanagement drop in standards of leinsters traditional counties.
Westmeath even managed to start pushing Meath for example.



/www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/sport/438306/manus-boyle-column-let-dublin-celebrate-all-things-come-to-an-end.html






Manus Boyle (Donegal Democrat):

"But the problem now is that so much good work has been done by those involved in the Dublin set up for the last ten years that there is no sign of their dominance coming to an end and that scares everyone. Those that run the GAA are in a real quandary. Dublin are the cash cow; even at the weekend, they filled Croke Park along with Mayo fans. Tyrone and Kerry could only muster up less than 40,000 to come watch them play; an All-Ireland semi-final and the place only half full is definitely sending out a message to someone.

The funding issue could be solved by sharing out the money a bit more evenly. However, GAA headquarters have always been keen to have the GAA strong in the capital so as to quell the competition of soccer and rugby. Maybe it’s old school thinking that if soccer or rugby took over Dublin it would spread to rural Ireland. The problem now in terms of funding is the train has left the station and the Dublin county board and their clubs have set up full time coaching within their club structure and they are able to sustain that without the help of Croke Park.

You will notice that Dublin didn’t waste a ball of money on centres of development, they instead used the money for putting coaches in place; they spent their money wisely and didn’t fire huge sums at just one team."

Martina1991

Looking at net spending is a fairly useless measure. Every county had different expenditure each year based on number of games played, where they had to travel to, etc. When Dublin rarely have to leave Croke Park, you'd wonder how their expenses are just behind Mayo's.

Mayo and other Connacht counties have trips to NY and London. Mayo also generate most of their income from fundraising.

"Mayo were the third biggest spenders in 2017 (behind Cork and Dublin) with €1,542,547 on team preparation but their fundraising vehicles through Cáirde Mhaigheo produced staggering returns of over €900,000". https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/25000-packages-see-mayo-poised-for-new-york-windfall-37811504.html

gormdubhgorm

Then of course there is the argument about the grants that is trotted out

But there was analysis of whether funding overall has a correlation towards success the results are surprising.





For example Derry have received over 1.1m v Donegal's v Donegal's 545K, Antrim received 907k v Monaghan who received 545K.
The list goes on - yet which counties are the most successful?
It clearly shows that success is not purely based on funding alone.

https://punditarena.com/gaa/gaelic-football/smangan/money-influence-success-gaelic-


Here it is in graph form based on ELO rating points:





(From the article above)
"Obviously, Dublin is a major outlier, but the trend is that the lower rated teams receive greater amounts of money for games development. This may be a surprise to many but it makes sense. The best way to promote the game is to invest in weaker counties in order to make them competitive.

The major conclusion I would take from this is that it’s not how much money you get, but it’s about how you invest it. Yes, I think something needs to be done about the allocation of funding, but other counties need to take a leaf out of Dublin’s book and implement a long-term development strategy."


http://www.stsylvesters.ie/files/the-blue-wave.pdf

=====

For those of you who do not know what ELO rating systems to are and how it can be applied to the GAA read this

https://www.degruyter.com/dg/viewarticle/j$002fijcss.2016.15.issue-2$002fijcss-2016-0006$002fijcss-2016-0006.xml

MayoAreMagic

Again, read the first point - dublin dont produce the gate receipt alone, and if you look at their numbers as a percenrage of their overall numbers, they actually perform terribly.
Furthermore, their numbers are dropping noticeably, and when you consider their actual fundraising figures from within the county are in fact very meagre, you start to realise that they are in fact getting as much if not more money out of the gaa than they are putting in.

Again, I imagine the rest follows a similar vein so I didnt bother reading it

gormdubhgorm

Martina1991 wrote: »

Looking at net spending is a fairly useless measure. Every county had different expenditure each year based on number of games played, where they had to travel to, etc. When Dublin rarely have to leave Croke Park, you'd wonder how their expenses are just behind Mayo's.

Mayo and other Connacht counties have trips to NY and London. Mayo also generate most of their income from fundraising.

"Mayo were the third biggest spenders in 2017 (behind Cork and Dublin) with €1,542,547 on team preparation but their fundraising vehicles through Cáirde Mhaigheo produced staggering returns of over €900,000". https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/25000-packages-see-mayo-poised-for-new-york-windfall-37811504.html

Dublin rarely leave croke park yes but there are vast differences in enomiies of scale that counties outside Dublin do not have to contend with.
Building/Land prices, availability of green fields for youngsters to play on, insurance costs etc, etc.

Granted Mayo do things very well, and should be commended for it thier fans give tremendous support, and thier county board and players obviously put in above and beyond normal efforts compared to many other counties.