The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

ShyMets

Enquiring wrote: »

How will it not? You're proposing to have a championship were in one section, if you can't beat a county spending huge sums every year, you'll be kicked out of the championship. It's crazy talk.

Calls for a b championship wouldn't be made if some counties hadn't been moved ahead through enormous over funding. Dublin were been beaten by many counties in Leinster, they went running to Bertie. Kerry were being humiliated by Northern counties and then Dublin. They've invested huge amounts since then.

Competing fairly is an alien concept to you.

Just on a side I find your attitude to people who have different ideas from you about achieving a level fairness to be extremely smug. You have ideas. Some of them have merit but it doesn't mean they're all correct

And you continuly dismiss people who offer a different viewpoint

dobman88

Enquiring wrote: »

How will it not? You're proposing to have a championship were in one section, if you can't beat a county spending huge sums every year, you'll be kicked out of the championship. It's crazy talk.

Calls for a b championship wouldn't be made if some counties hadn't been moved ahead through enormous over funding. Dublin were been beaten by many counties in Leinster, they went running to Bertie. Kerry were being humiliated by Northern counties and then Dublin. They've invested huge amounts since then.

Competing fairly is an alien concept to you.

There's some crazy talk going on here alright.

Did Kerry go out and whip up the sponsorship to help them invest those huge amounts that in your fantasy land you would have taken off them? Why would a sponsor invest if their money isn't going to the place they're investing in. You're losing the run of it and making absolutely no sense.

I'm all for fairness. As said many times, you seem to be the one against it.

Enquiring

dobman88 wrote: »

There's some crazy talk going on here alright.

Did Kerry go out and whip up the sponsorship to help them invest those huge amounts that in your fantasy land you would have taken off them? Why would a sponsor invest if their money isn't going to the place they're investing in. You're losing the run of it and making absolutely no sense.

I'm all for fairness. As said many times, you seem to be the one against it.

If you're all for fairness, how can you justify a county spending over 2 million on salaries, 1.5 million on team preparations, 2 million on expenses, 3.8 million on games development and with almost 2 decades of over funding competing against counties barely scrapping by?

superbluedub

Enquiring wrote: »

If you're all for fairness, how can you justify a county spending over 2 million on salaries, 1.5 million on team preparations, 2 million on expenses, 3.8 million on games development and with almost 2 decades of over funding competing against counties barely scrapping by?

And the merry go round continues , your agenda has nothing to do with fairness
Its blatantly obvious the way to go here is tiering .

Enquiring

superbluedub wrote: »

And the merry go round continues , your agenda has nothing to do with fairness
Its blatantly obvious the way to go here is tiering .

You can try to paper over the cracks with a tiered system, amalgamations, introducing the super 8's, anything you want but at the end of the day, no matter what way you come at it, when one county have the resources Dublin have at their disposal, it's impossible to have any competition where everyone is competing on an equal footing.

superbluedub

Enquiring wrote: »

You can try to paper over the cracks with a tiered system, amalgamations, introducing the super 8's, anything you want but at the end of the day, no matter what way you come at it, when one county have the resources Dublin have at their disposal, it's impossible to have any competition where everyone is competing on an equal footing.

You can try to paper over cracks any way you want also
but it is obvious to everyone here , you will listen to no other proposals , theres your way and your way only , your right there wrong ,this is the way its got to be etc etc , your agenda /obsession is to split Dublin , 100% nothing to do with fairness

Enquiring

superbluedub wrote: »

You can try to paper over cracks any way you want also
but it is obvious to everyone here , you will listen to no other proposals , theres your way and your way only , your right there wrong ,this is the way its got to be etc etc , your agenda /obsession is to split Dublin , 100% nothing to do with fairness

Can you explain how a county getting a plan drawn up and funded for them for nearly 2 decades is in any way fair? A county who have grown their resources off the back of this plan to where they are now operating with incredible levels of finance. If you're interested in fair play, how can you justify this?

superbluedub

I never said it was fair !
How is it fair that larger countys can get huge sponsorship and the likes of Leitrim cant ?Again your one and only agenda is to split Dublin , Fair is not what your about here

Enquiring

superbluedub wrote: »

I never said it was fair !
How is it fair that larger countys can get huge sponsorship and the likes of Leitrim cant ?Again your one and only agenda is to split Dublin , Fair is not what your about here

Ok, so you've admitted you're not interested in fair play. Dublin winning at all costs is your only interest. That's fair enough but I'm not sure why you think everyone else should just allow Dublin to continue as a professional organisation in an amateur sport.

Splitting Dublin is just one part, giving every county appropriate funding and an equal opportunity to compete is another. Instead of over funding the county with the most advantages, you fund the weaker counties. That is a fair way of doing things.

ShyMets

Enquiring wrote: »

Ok, so you've admitted you're not interested in fair play. Dublin winning at all costs is your only interest. That's fair enough but I'm not sure why you think everyone else should just allow Dublin to continue as a professional organisation in an amateur sport.

Splitting Dublin is just one part, giving every county appropriate funding and an equal opportunity to compete is another. Instead of over funding the county with the most advantages, you fund the weaker counties. That is a fair way of doing things.

So you've assumed the moral high ground by implying that anybody who has alternative ideas about reforming the GAA structures is somehow not interested in fair play.

I'm sorry this thread is just descending into farce

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

Dublin hurlers lost to Westmeath in 2006 and the year before they lost to Laois by 12 points. At that stage, it would have been unimaginable to think they could win a Leinster championship, a national league and be serious contenders in the All Ireland championship. Yet, that happened. That's the blueprint, we know what works. Fund the weaker counties. Your option has been shown not to work. It will end any chance of these counties ever competing at the top level.

Dublin don't have a quarter of the countries population, the money was mostly targeted on 30,000 and under children and did Antrim or Cork get half what Dublin received?

What a ridiculous argument. Tipperary lost by 11 to cork in 2018. The year after they lost by 7 to a Limerick team that were subsequently trimmed by a 21 point margin by cork. Yet you argue that similar results by Dublin are proof of your conspiracy

If Dublin don't have the population involved (though as you've been repeatedly told that involvement is what the money is meant to develop.) then the split argument is even weaker - it would reduce the pool of players available well below some counties. Indeed by that argument Cork would be first to be split.

Really weak stuff there Enquiring, youre tying yourself up in knots here at this stage

Enquiring

ShyMets wrote: »

So you've assumed the moral high ground by implying that anybody who has alternative ideas about reforming the GAA structures is somehow not interested in fair play.

I'm sorry this thread is just descending into farce

We're talking about splitting Dublin because of the enormous over funding they received. The poster stated that they don't think it was fair but they don't feel anything should be done about it. Do you feel the same?

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

Demoting counties to a b championship will seriously damage our games in those counties. We have seen this with Offaly. Funding these counties instead will work, we have seen this with Dublin.

There is so much room for growth in every single county. That's what a sporting organisation ike the GAA should be aiming for. They should have spread the funding to every county. By making it a Dublin only fund, they have left us in this position.

You seem happy to allow one county spend almost 10 million per year on wages and development costs, when will you see a problem? When they're spending 20 million?

And of course the GAA is funding these counties! As Pat Teehan pointed out the funding for Rest of Leinster is growing year on year and is indeed per capota far greater than what Dublin is receiving. Funding for 118 Games Development personell under the Rest of Leinster versus 65 coaches in Dublin (which the GAA is only funding half of). There's the possibility of a real success story here for the GAA, since Meath and Kildare seem guaranteed to be successful in the next couple of years with this programme based on your theory, and as a bonus children in these counties will have enhanced exposure to the GAA. Indeed the GAA should look to roll the Leinster model out elsewhere as a priority! - maybe you could bring that up with your provincial council

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

You can't forget that 10 counties were competing in a province with an over funded behemoth. With the split, this will be gone. It will mean we'll need new championship structures also. Which will be an exciting change to add to it.

Monaghan have a population of 60,000 and are competing at the top level. You're forgetting, with splitting Dublin, the population difference from top to bottom won't be that much.

But you tell us elsewhere that Dublin don't actually have the size of population and the funding only really benefitted a small pool of kids?

very strange

By your own argument we'd need to look at splitting Cork first. possibly keep a close eye on the big Ulster counties too since the half of the population that have an interest would be heavily invested

ShyMets

Enquiring wrote: »

We're talking about splitting Dublin because of the enormous over funding they received. The poster stated that they don't think it was fair but they don't feel anything should be done about it. Do you feel the same?

As I've stated before I'm open to the idea of a spilt but as part of a more radical restructuring plan. To include amalgamations.

On another note your tactics are clear. You are trying to stifle debate about reform in the GAA by labeling all those you disagree with you as being not interested in fair play.

You talk about not being silenced but that is effectively what you are trying to do to anyone disagrees with you

ArielAtom

ShyMets wrote: »

So you've assumed the moral high ground by implying that anybody who has alternative ideas about reforming the GAA structures is somehow not interested in fair play.

I'm sorry this thread is just descending into farce

Agree with you, its a farce. On fairness, since when has intercounty Gaelic Games been about fairness. It is about winning, always has and always will be. I wonder would Enquiring like us to have grading leagues and ensure that each child is playing against a child of similar ability, thats fair? Thats the way its done up and down the country. Sounds familiar? Could it be that a Tiered approach would be similar? I'm going to pick Cork and Kerry as examples with regards to sponsorship. Kerry had a massive advantage with Kerry Group sponsoring way before anyone else could get that level of sponsorship. Did anyone complain? Can't remember it myself. Fair play to them. Cork have just signed a deal with Sports Direct, fair play to them. What Comrade Enquiring is looking for is akin to a Communist GAA movement. Pool the sponsorship.

As it has been pointed out the bitterness and looking to knock Dublin off it's current perch is the obvious end goal. Fairness has nothing to do with it. The agenda is the same as the blogger from Athy or the Westmeath lad who could not even get his figures correct going into a debate. Comical bitterness is a better description for their campaign, they have their cabal, do they really think that posting the same lies every day will make them the truth and garner support from the rest of the GAA. If nothing else this thread is keeping me amused during lockdown.

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

What a ridiculous argument. Tipperary lost by 11 to cork in 2018. The year after they lost by 7 to a Limerick team that were subsequently trimmed by a 21 point margin by cork. Yet you argue that similar results by Dublin are proof of your conspiracy

If Dublin don't have the population involved (though as you've been repeatedly told that involvement is what the money is meant to develop.) then the split argument is even weaker - it would reduce the pool of players available well below some counties. Indeed by that argument Cork would be first to be split.

Really weak stuff there Enquiring, youre tying yourself up in knots here at this stage

Oh dear. Dublin hurlers went from minnows to consistently competing at the top level. Beating all the top counties. As Pat Teehan acknowledged, the funding made a serious difference to Dublin GAA. The improvement in results were inevitable but that's not the reason for the split as you've been told.

Again, you've been told that the population is not the reason for the split either. It's the major over funding which has led to Dublin having obscene levels of finance available to them. Have you been able to come up with any argument to justify allowing one county spending 10 million on wages and development alone competing against counties operating with very little?

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

And of course the GAA is funding these counties! As Pat Teehan pointed out the funding for Rest of Leinster is growing year on year and is indeed per capota far greater than what Dublin is receiving. Funding for 118 Games Development personell under the Rest of Leinster versus 65 coaches in Dublin (which the GAA is only funding half of). There's the possibility of a real success story here for the GAA, since Meath and Kildare seem guaranteed to be successful in the next couple of years with this programme based on your theory, and as a bonus children in these counties will have enhanced exposure to the GAA. Indeed the GAA should look to roll the Leinster model out elsewhere as a priority! - maybe you could bring that up with your provincial council

Yes, of course. The funding should be spread to every county. That includes the 4 new counties of Fingal, Dún Laoighaire/Rathdown, South Dublin and Dublin city. Every county should have access to coaches to improve standards of Gaelic games in their counties.

But don't forget that Dublin have had this scheme for nearly 2 decades. That's why the split has to happen.

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

But you tell us elsewhere that Dublin don't actually have the size of population and the funding only really benefitted a small pool of kids?

very strange

By your own argument we'd need to look at splitting Cork first. possibly keep a close eye on the big Ulster counties too since the half of the population that have an interest would be heavily invested

Yes, yet again, population is not the issue. It's the funding Dublin were handed to target the 30,000 and under registered players aged between 8 and 18. It has completely transformed standards in Dublin GAA across the board. Nearly 100 titles post funding.

Enquiring

ShyMets wrote: »

As I've stated before I'm open to the idea of a spilt but as part of a more radical restructuring plan. To include amalgamations.

On another note your tactics are clear. You are trying to stifle debate about reform in the GAA by labeling all those you disagree with you as being not interested in fair play.

You talk about not being silenced but that is effectively what you are trying to do to anyone disagrees with you

Not at all. Everyone is free to make suggestions on what we should do about the Dublin issue if they want. I'm not stopping them.

dobman88

Enquiring wrote: »

If you're all for fairness, how can you justify a county spending over 2 million on salaries, 1.5 million on team preparations, 2 million on expenses, 3.8 million on games development and with almost 2 decades of over funding competing against counties barely scrapping by?

Show me one post where I justified any of that. Just one.

Enquiring

dobman88 wrote: »

Show me one post where I justified any of that. Just one.

I asked you a question, I didn't say you have justified it. But if you don't think it's justified, then what do you think should be done about the Dublin issue?

ooter

Kilkenny, galway, limerick, cork, tipp, wexford, laois have all beaten dublin in recent years.

dobman88

Enquiring wrote: »

I asked you a question, I didn't say you have justified it. But if you don't think it's justified, then what do you think should be done about the Dublin issue?

Fair enough. I've asked you questions and you've refused to answer. But I'm courteous enough to give you a response.

The funding should be addressed of course and according to the leinster council lad who was on the debate, he said it is being addressed. So that'a good start but it will take time. Splitting Dublin and pooling sponsorship is not the way to go about. Redistributing funding from croke park is. And that's happening so give it time.

tritium

ArielAtom wrote: »

Agree with you, its a farce. On fairness, since when has intercounty Gaelic Games been about fairness. It is about winning, always has and always will be. I wonder would Enquiring like us to have grading leagues and ensure that each child is playing against a child of similar ability, thats fair? Thats the way its done up and down the country. Sounds familiar? Could it be that a Tiered approach would be similar? I'm going to pick Cork and Kerry as examples with regards to sponsorship. Kerry had a massive advantage with Kerry Group sponsoring way before anyone else could get that level of sponsorship. Did anyone complain? Can't remember it myself. Fair play to them. Cork have just signed a deal with Sports Direct, fair play to them. What Comrade Enquiring is looking for is akin to a Communist GAA movement. Pool the sponsorship.

As it has been pointed out the bitterness and looking to knock Dublin off it's current perch is the obvious end goal. Fairness has nothing to do with it. The agenda is the same as the blogger from Athy or the Westmeath lad who could not even get his figures correct going into a debate. Comical bitterness is a better description for their campaign, they have their cabal, do they really think that posting the same lies every day will make them the truth and garner support from the rest of the GAA. If nothing else this thread is keeping me amused during lockdown.

True, and the reality is that while Dublin has advantages so do other counties.
The anti Dublin camp cant bring themselves to admit that because to do so would be to acknowledge what the GAA have said, and what the counties bought into, all along - that those disadvantages Dublin faced had been ignored by the GAA and government to the extent that it was becoming critical not just for the GAA but for the wider social cohesion of the county. Teehans statistics on the availability of pitches in Dublin painted an even bleaker picture than I realised, and if anything the picture is only likely to get worse: its all well and good talking about Dublins super clubs but actually finding a space and time slot to get kids on a pitch is a challenge that no other county faces to the degree clubs in Dublin do. in many cases Dublin clubs could see their pitches disappear and have little or no say in the matter.

tritium

dobman88 wrote: »

Fair enough. I've asked you questions and you've refused to answer. But I'm courteous enough to give you a response.

The funding should be addressed of course and according to the leinster council lad who was on the debate, he said it is being addressed. So that'a good start but it will take time. Splitting Dublin and pooling sponsorship is not the way to go about. Redistributing funding from croke park is. And that's happening so give it time.

That's the thing so many seem to be missing. There's this notion that this can be addressed tomorrow by pumping funding at a county. the reality is Dublin built structures over the course of years. Pulling them down isn't the answer, nor is starving them by cutting off funding, that's the Taliban approach to progress. Other counties need to be helped, financially and administratively, to develop their own structures that will last. That's not an overnight thing and rather than trying to beggar they neighbour counties need to accept that the measure is in terms of incremental progress in their systems. Making Dublin weaker wont win Kildare an All Ireland, but building on the lessons of what Dublin did just might.

ooter

Oh dear, after all this time the registered player argument is still being trotted out.

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

Yes, yet again, population is not the issue. It's the funding Dublin were handed to target the 30,000 and under registered players aged between 8 and 18. It has completely transformed standards in Dublin GAA across the board. Nearly 100 titles post funding.

So Dublin don't in your view have a big playing pool

but you want to dilute it anyway with a split

even though you've argued that this would help Dublin by giving all those players who miss out because of the size of Dublin a shot at inter county

Even though that pool is similar to many other counties

But splitting other big counties with plenty of players isn't a topic for you. Or merging counties with less

But its all about fairness



You're slipping badly at this stage

tritium

ooter wrote: »

Oh dear, after all this time the registered player argument is still being trotted out.

Makes you wonder what people think Games Development means. Although I think its more an intentionally disingenuous argument as opposed to one the people making it actually believe tbh. It started out from a couple of journalists looking for a story which in itself gives you an idea of its credibility

Enquiring

dobman88 wrote: »

Fair enough. I've asked you questions and you've refused to answer. But I'm courteous enough to give you a response.

The funding should be addressed of course and according to the leinster council lad who was on the debate, he said it is being addressed. So that'a good start but it will take time. Splitting Dublin and pooling sponsorship is not the way to go about. Redistributing funding from croke park is. And that's happening so give it time.

So you think the near 2 decades of funding disparity should be ignored? Even though it's led to Dublin now being in a position where they have an enormous level of resources.

By the way. The redistribution has still not taken place. It's still limited to a few counties including Dublin. Every other Leinster county and counties in Ulster, Munster and Connaught don't have access to this fund.