Springboard course in Software Development

Occono

I applied for a Higher Diploma in Software Development Springboard course, my Bachelors isn't useful for me (I don't care for the disiplicine anymore, there's not a lot of careers and it's not a good grade on my degree.)

I'm 29, I now work in a call centre for tech support full time, I make €22k a year. I got accepted for the Springboard course, I didn't think I would, I suppose I only applied because I meant to when I was long term unemployed, but never did.

Does it make any sense to leave my job to take the course? I'd have to find some new weekend or evening part time job, if I can. Not even for money so much (I am very good at saving and have saved up quite a bit) but just because I think I'm better off working, I procrastinate less when I have less free time.

I should maybe re-apply for a part time or online course instead, might be a little late in the year now.

But is there any odds of making a career shift into a programming-related field at 29 like this? Would it make more sense to try to self-educate instead? I'm not sure if if's a field that you can break into without a degree, and if it is, is a higher diploma even enough to find a job?

OMM 0000

Do you like programming?

Are you able to do it?

Most people don't like it and most people can't do it.

Rikand

Do the course and work hard at it. Getting a good result will help. Once done, then set about creating a couple of apps or real world examples of your work. You will then be able to demonstrably prove you can program to prospective employers

You don't seem to like your job. Do the course, the longer you stay where you are, the more you will hate it and the more you will regret not changing

29 is still very very young. My college degree and masters courses were full of people 30+ looking to move into software after careers in all sorts of other fields. Most are still in the software industry almost 10 years later from the masters. Not all of them enjoy it mind, but they're on a lot more than 22k a year

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Do you like programming?

Are you able to do it?

Most people don't like it and most people can't do it.

And yet so many people from totally unrelated backgrounds can switch into the IT industry via a short Springboard course.

If so many people were not able to do it, these Springboard courses would been an abject failure.

People who have absolutely no interest in programing are still able to write an Excel macro as a means to improve their own non IT work. If it was so insurmountable, how is this possible?

Tom Dunne

salonfire wrote: »

People who have absolutely no interest in programing are still able to write an Excel macro as a means to improve their own non IT work. If it was so insurmountable, how is this possible?

There is a substantial difference between Excel Macro programming (procedural) and modern programming (object orientated), never mind software engineering.

Occono wrote: »

But is there any odds of making a career shift into a programming-related field at 29 like this? Would it make more sense to try to self-educate instead? I'm not sure if if's a field that you can break into without a degree, and if it is, is a higher diploma even enough to find a job?

The odds are very much in your favour. The market for programmers is very healthy right now (as it has been for the past, oh, 15 years). It's one of the few careers that survived through the recession.


So yes, you can move into a programming role with a degree+higher diploma.


However, and it's an important point, don't do it unless you enjoy programming.

Tom Dunne

Tom Dunne wrote: »

There is a substantial difference between Excel Macro programming (procedural) and modern programming (object orientated), never mind software engineering.




The odds are very much in your favour. The market for programmers is very healthy right now (as it has been for the past, oh, 15 years). It's one of the few careers that survived through the recession.


So yes, you can move into a programming role with a degree+higher diploma.


However, and it's an important point, don't do it unless you enjoy programming.

You don't have to enjoy something to be able to knuckle down and do it. People do it as a means to an end - often forceably during the recession when they lost their job and had to retrain.

I'm sure lawyers reading through loads of old court cases don't 'enjoy' it. Or the medical student reading through large textbooks don't 'enjoy' it either.

Tom Dunne

salonfire wrote: »

You don't have to enjoy something to be able to knuckle down and do it. People do it as a means to an end - often forceably during the recession when they lost their job and had to retrain.

I'm sure lawyers reading through loads of old court cases don't 'enjoy' it. Or the medical student reading through large textbooks don't 'enjoy' it either.

Have you ever actually done any programming in a commercial environment?

Tom Dunne

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Have you ever actually done any programming in a commercial environment?

What's that got to do with any of the points I'm making?

Please don't trot out the line of programmers having to work 100 hour weeks to meet strict project deadlines in a commercial environment. But it's ok because they enjoy it. That is simply not true in all work places.

OMM 0000

salonfire wrote: »

And yet so many people from totally unrelated backgrounds can switch into the IT industry via a short Springboard course.

If so many people were not able to do it, these Springboard courses would been an abject failure.

People who have absolutely no interest in programing are still able to write an Excel macro as a means to improve their own non IT work. If it was so insurmountable, how is this possible?

My point still stands. Most people don't like it and most people can't do it. Anyone who studied or taught computer science will tell you this.

I'm not saying people can't change careers into programming. But if you've already made a mistake in your first degree/career choice, you better be sure the one you're switching too is the right choice.

An excel macro is not real programming*. Any kid can write an excel macro.

Hang on - are you the guy I had an argument with about this exact topic before, and it turned out you know nothing about programming? Let me search my history and I'll respond with an update in my next post.

*Edit to clarify: Basic stuff like macro programming is not what professional programmers do day to day, and is an incredibly basic area of programming.

Tom Dunne

salonfire wrote: »

What's that got to do with any of the points I'm making?

Because if you have no experience of the industry or the profession, your point is severely undermined, rendered to nothing more than a keyboard-warrior opinion and should be treated accordingly.



However, those of us who have actually worked in the industry can give informed opinions based on actual experience.

OMM 0000

Yes, I had this same conversation with salonfire a few months ago. You can see it here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showthread.php?t=2057981623

Here's some highlights:

* He thinks design patterns are for advanced people only, yet he doesn't know what they are.

* He thinks "a basic understanding of classes and Entities and Relationships" is all you need to get by.

* He thinks financial software is "relatively basic" and doesn't require any "advanced" programming skills.

* He thinks any idiot can get a job as a programmer.

So this is a non-programmer who has extremely strong opinions on what it takes to be a programmer.

I've been working in the development world for over 20 years, yet he thinks he understands this topic better than someone like me.

So I recommend you avoid discussing this topic with him.

Tom Dunne

OMM 0000 wrote: »

So I recommend you avoid discussing this topic with him.

You don't have to tell me twice. :pac:

Tom Dunne

Tom Dunne wrote: »

You don't have to tell me twice. :pac:

Then you should know that someone who may not have the aptitude to be a full on software developer can also use their programming skills for other jobs like test automation, devops or bug fixing an existing application.

By others in this forum immediately dismissing programming as something most people can't do is simply incorrect and blocks people from perusing these other potential avenues as well

OMM 0000

salonfire wrote: »

Then you should know that someone who may not have the aptitude to be a full on software developer can also use their programming skills for other jobs like test automation, devops or bug fixing an existing application.

This is the last time I ever respond to you, then you're going on my ignore list.

You don't understand what software development is.

I was a test automation engineer for a few years. If you don't have an aptitude for programming, you cannot do this job. Building an automation framework is a software engineering role. I had to use C#, VB, JavaScript and Java. It was hard.

You don't study software engineering if you want to work in devops.

You don't fix bugs unless you're working as a software engineer. Fixing bugs is not "easy". In fact I would argue it's more difficult to fix bugs in someone else's code than it is to write code from scratch.

You need to stop having such aggressive opinions on things you don't understand. It's really ugly.

Occono

Tom Dunne wrote: »

There is a substantial difference between Excel Macro programming (procedural) and modern programming (object orientated), never mind software engineering.




The odds are very much in your favour. The market for programmers is very healthy right now (as it has been for the past, oh, 15 years). It's one of the few careers that survived through the recession.


So yes, you can move into a programming role with a degree+higher diploma.


However, and it's an important point, don't do it unless you enjoy programming.

It might be better if I try and take the time to self study it for a year and then reapply (but Murphy's Law means they might not accept me the second time or some other obstacle will stop me.)

I applied for it, because I do like technology (but more on a surface level), it seems to be employable, and because I'm autistic so it's supposedly suitable for me. My autism has contributed to my prior unemployment as much as my Bachelor's specialisation has.

The deadline to accept it is close though, so, probably I'll just decline it at this point. I really don't want it to not work out and go back to jobseeking. I am not great in job interviews.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

This is the last time I ever respond to you, then you're going on my ignore list.

Fine, but I am going to pull you up again on this ever I see you jump in with discouraging comments in relation to programing that goes against all reality. In fact, you are the only poster I have seen doing this.

Others are quite willing to admit they have no background in IT but still ended up in software engineering.

haskellgeek

They may have no background but they probably have a related degree maths/physics/engineering etc

A2LUE42

Have you tried posting in the college forum for the course, to get some feedback from folks doing the same hdip

Daithi101

Hi OP,

I am currently doing this very course at the moment albeit part-time online.

There are people from all walks currently enrolled on it who are all looking to get different things out of it.

For me personally - I have no intention of pursuing a software dev career. I'm currently working in QA and wanted to further my technical knowledge so I could manage automation frameworks etc.

The course from a part time perspective is challenging but there are excellent support frameworks in place and this also includes help in breaking into the industry as the college has excellent corporate relationships.

I wasn't sure whether I could hack it especially all the programming g but it is very well structured so with a bit of work you will get through it.

Best of luck!

beauf

Occono wrote: »

I applied for a Higher Diploma in Software Development Springboard course, my Bachelors isn't useful for me (I don't care for the disiplicine anymore, there's not a lot of careers and it's not a good grade on my degree.)

I'm 29, I now work in a call centre for tech support full time, I make €22k a year. I got accepted for the Springboard course, I didn't think I would, I suppose I only applied because I meant to when I was long term unemployed, but never did.

Does it make any sense to leave my job to take the course? I'd have to find some new weekend or evening part time job, if I can. Not even for money so much (I am very good at saving and have saved up quite a bit) but just because I think I'm better off working, I procrastinate less when I have less free time.

I should maybe re-apply for a part time or online course instead, might be a little late in the year now.

But is there any odds of making a career shift into a programming-related field at 29 like this? Would it make more sense to try to self-educate instead? I'm not sure if if's a field that you can break into without a degree, and if it is, is a higher diploma even enough to find a job?

Hard to answer this is as you give no indication if you like coding. Lots of jobs in IT that aren't coding. But I don't get the sense you are a coder.

Unless you are extremely motivated, you will need a formal training in programming to do well as a programmer.

I say that as someone who is self trained, and has mostly worked in software development.

beauf

OMM 0000 wrote: »

My point still stands. Most people don't like it and most people can't do it. Anyone who studied or taught computer science will tell you this.

I'm not saying people can't change careers into programming. But if you've already made a mistake in your first degree/career choice, you better be sure the one you're switching too is the right choice.

An excel macro is not real programming*. Any kid can write an excel macro.

Hang on - are you the guy I had an argument with about this exact topic before, and it turned out you know nothing about programming? Let me search my history and I'll respond with an update in my next post.

*Edit to clarify: Basic stuff like macro programming is not what professional programmers do day to day, and is an incredibly basic area of programming.

Pedantics perhaps, but you can programme using excel object model, or any part of the VBA object model. You can create some complex applications. But its day is mainly gone, as the security model is too limiting.

But it is very true to say that 95% of people creating macros in Office/Excel are not programmers and they are mainly only writing scripts. Even if they are complex its not programming.

Most programmers won't go near VBA. They see it obsolete and beneath them.

beauf

salonfire wrote: »

Fine, but I am going to pull you up again on this ever I see you jump in with discouraging comments in relation to programing that goes against all reality. In fact, you are the only poster I have seen doing this.

Others are quite willing to admit they have no background in IT but still ended up in software engineering.

You can work in software engineering and not be a programmer.

Daithi101

Daithi101 wrote: »

with a bit of work you will get through it.

Unless of course you are most people, according to one poster in this thread

beauf

salonfire wrote: »

Unless of course you are most people, according to one poster in this thread

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1029474/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/some-third-level-computing-courses-have-80-drop-out-rate-1.3792910

Did you even Google it...

OMM 0000

beauf wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1029474/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/some-third-level-computing-courses-have-80-drop-out-rate-1.3792910

Did you even Google it...

My own computer science degree had about an 80% drop out rate. I'd say about a third were gone in the first year alone.

My masters had about a 50% drop out rate.

The people I knew who dropped out, it was entirely because they couldn't program.

It takes a certain type of brain to program. And of course you have to like it.

It's like the way most people dislike maths and are not good at it. Well programming is an extreme version of that...

It always seems to be the non-programmers pushing everyone into programming.

Occono

I'm autistic, so, programming is, stereotypically at least, actually meant to suit me. But, maybe I should apply again next year after more self study, leaving a job is just not a good idea even if it's not exactly a career. I'll have to check if Springboard has a boy who cried wolf clause...

OMM 0000

Occono wrote: »

I'm autistic, so, programming is, stereotypically at least, actually meant to suit me. But, maybe I should apply again next year after more self study, leaving a job is just not a good idea even if it's not exactly a career. I'll have to check if Springboard has a boy who cried wolf clause...

I think you need to forget about the autistic angle.

You'd be much better off trying to program something to see if you like it and are able to do it.

This would involve reading a programming book and doing the questions/examples.

You could learn Javascript + Node.js.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1029474/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/some-third-level-computing-courses-have-80-drop-out-rate-1.3792910

Did you even Google it...

Did you even read the links?

rte wrote:

The study found a direct link between Leaving Certificate performance and academic success.

Drop out rates are far higher among students with lower Leaving Certificate points.

That suggests motivation is a factor in the drop out rates as well. Of course you need self motivation to be able to complete these courses.

Snotty

My software development course started with 32 people, 3 graduated, the year behind me ended with just 1 graduating and that was a guy to had to repeat from my class.
Programming isn't for everyone and it is hard, it's not really a job you can do without having any aptitude for it. Having said that, if you get through the course, there are loads of other areas within IT that could be accessible through a software developer course.

Tom Dunne

salonfire wrote: »

That suggests motivation is a factor in the drop out rates as well. Of course you need self motivation to be able to complete these courses.

So now you are an expert in Higher Education?

If you knew anything about Higher Education you would know that there appears to be a strong correlation between Leaving Cert points and success in Higher Education for all courses, not just computer science/IT/tech.

And I can't help but feel your are conflating self-efficacy with motivation to get self-motivation. In the literature on student success, there isn't really a construct of self-motivation, it is typically broken down into intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation (which themselves are broken down into further constructs). Perhaps this is a discussion for another time.

beauf

salonfire wrote: »

Did you even read the links?

That suggests motivation is a factor in the drop out rates as well. Of course you need self motivation to be able to complete these courses.

Did you?

The only part of it that is relevant to this thread is the IT/software has the highest drop out. You've completely ignored it.

A2LUE42

I've done this course as a 2 year part time while working and it was tough. Of the 30 that started, about 20 finished it. Everyone was in full-time employment while doing the course.

14dMoney

Hi OP,

I was in a similar situation to you a few years back. I went to Maynooth to do the HDip in SE.

It is absolutely worthwhile for anybody. And you can certainly start a brilliant career with the HDip. So go for it. Let me give you some golden rules though:

1. Work your ass off. Anything less than a 1st is worthless. Luckily, the nature of the course is more or less (excuse the pun) binary. I.e answers are right or wrong.

2. Similar to point 1. Don't fall behind. It's literally impossible to catch up.

3. You'll have a module or two called data structures and algorithms or something like that. Without a doubt the most important module. Super difficult, but once you invest the time, it will click and most other concepts will fall into place.

In terms of career prospects, your first position will be small enough pay, but if you'll also see huge incremental jumps in your salary every time you switch jobs, my own path was 27-45-72-80 within 3 years.

Software development is exciting, and it's definitely worth getting into if you want to. It isn't however something that one can get into without putting in solid groundwork beforehand. But my advice is go for it

beauf

Occono wrote: »

I'm autistic, so, programming is, stereotypically at least, actually meant to suit me. But, maybe I should apply again next year after more self study, leaving a job is just not a good idea even if it's not exactly a career. I'll have to check if Springboard has a boy who cried wolf clause...

Follow one of those free online courses. See if you like it.

No other way to find out, except trying it.

NuttyMcNutty

salonfire wrote: »

You don't have to enjoy something to be able to knuckle down and do it. People do it as a means to an end - often forceably during the recession when they lost their job and had to retrain.

I'm sure lawyers reading through loads of old court cases don't 'enjoy' it. Or the medical student reading through large textbooks don't 'enjoy' it either.

If you enjoy its easier to learn by yourself instead of taking courses I found.

Occono

14dMoney wrote: »

Hi OP,

1. Work your ass off. Anything less than a 1st is worthless. Luckily, the nature of the course is more or less (excuse the pun) binary. I.e answers are right or wrong.

The binary answers part sounds good, because a problem with my Bachelors was I did the study but failed at making any arguments. I had thoroughly cited regurgitated facts. Somethin binary like you describe may be what I should have done in the first place.

But I can't feel sure I'm ready to get a First for sure. I'll stick to self study and see if I can apply again another year.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

Did you?

The only part of it that is relevant to this thread is the IT/software has the highest drop out. You've completely ignored it.

And that's because the points for IT/engineering is far too low.

rte wrote:

At the former Tallaght IT, 96% of students had under 400 points.

By contrast, the college with the highest completion rate, St Patrick’s Teacher Training College, had no entrants with under 400 points.

It should come as no surprise that those who are mediocre in the Leaving Cert struggle with college's technical courses.