RTB has contacted me

retropessir

Hi

I've been renting a house for the past year from my landlord. There are multiple bedrooms and he's very much aware that I let out the other rooms to others before I signed the contract. I am the main tenant in said house, and I have licensee's under me. Each licensee has a contract with me (whether people think verbal is the way to go or not, this is to my benefit as well as I handle their damage deposits and rent, and it outlines basic rules).

In May a girl gave her 30 day notice because she wanted to move somewhere where she could have a dog, and she found such a place. A week after this there was an argument because I had been cleaning up after her continuously since March. She started getting heated and she went way overboard, saying that she would refuse to pay further bills until she leaves, that I must take it from her deposit. I said that while she lives in the house, she is resposible for paying her bills, otherwise I would serve a shorter notice than the 30 day one she provided me (as per contract), as I wouldn't be racking up her bills on my own behalf to pay. I did not serve her a notice at this stage, but she then agreed to pay them after I told her this would be the case if she did not.

Turns out, about 14 days after her initial notice, she decided to move into said accommodation earlier as it was available to her already and she moved. She was still liable for the remainder of the rent for that time, which I deducted from her deposit, and returned the rest. She made a fit saying that she wasn't liable for those remaining days because she left early. She has now went to RTB.

Now, RTB have contacted ME, assuming I am a landlord and saying that I have an unregistered tenancy (i.e her before she left). Obviously this is not the case as she is not liable for Part 4 of the 2004 RTA (Less than 6 months in the house), and obviously I am the main tenant in which she was renting from.

My problem is now two-fold:
(a) I am now having to send proof of licensee agreements to them. Am I correct, in all my researching? She did have exclusive occupancy of her room. But it was known that because I am the tenant, I can switch people around rooms at any time, and access it if I wished (I do not). They may come back and ask for proof that I am the main tenant, in which I would need to prove my contract with the landlord..no problem but..
(b) amidst this, I have realized my landlord has not registered MY tenancy with him over a year ago, despite having asked him to before I moved in. Now, he is actually amazing, and I am afraid to bring this up to him with great fear he was avoiding RTB (which didn't concern me prior), and will hack me out the house for this stress. Im unsure if its a case of tax or forgetting to, as I transfer him the rent on a monthly basis via bank?

In what ways may this pan out?

TLDR; I am the main tenant in a house my landlord owns. I have licensees under me, and now RTB is after me because they think I'm the landlord and have not registered them.

terrydel

retropessir wrote: »

Hi

I've been renting a house for the past year from my landlord. There are multiple bedrooms and he's very much aware that I let out the other rooms to others. I am the main tenant in said house, and I have licensee's under me. Each licensee has a contract with me (whether people think verbal is the way to go or not, this is to my benefit as well as I handle their damage deposits and rent, and it outlines basic rules).

In May a girl gave her 30 day notice because she wanted to move somewhere where she could have a dog, and she found such a place. A week after this there was an argument because I had been cleaning up after her continuously since March. She started getting heated and she went way overboard, saying that she would refuse to pay further bills until she leaves, that I must take it from her deposit. I said that while she lives in the house, she is resposible for paying her bills, otherwise I would serve a shorter notice, as I wouldn't be racking up her bills on my own behalf to pay. I did not serve her a notice at this stage, but she then agreed to pay them after I told her this would be the case if she did not.

Turns out, about 14 days after her initial notice, she decided to move into said accommodation earlier as it was available to her already and she moved. She was still liable for the remainder of the rent for that time, which I deducted from her deposit, and returned the rest. She made a fit saying that she wasn't liable for those remaining days because she left early. She has now went to RTB.

Now, RTB have contacted ME, assuming I am a landlord and saying that I have an unregistered tenancy (i.e her before she left). Obviously this is not the case as she is not liable for Part 4 of the 2004 RTA (Less than 6 months in the house), and obviously I am the main tenant.

My problem is now two-fold:
(a) I am now having to send proof of licensee agreements to them. Am I correct, in all my researching? She did have exclusive occupancy of her room. But it was known that because I am the tenant, I can switch people around rooms at any time, and access it if I wished (I do not). They may come back and ask for proof that I am the main tenant, in which I would need to prove my contract with the landlord..
(b) amidst this, I have realized my landlord has not registered MY tenancy with him over a year ago, despite having asked him to before I moved in. Now, he is actually amazing, and I am afraid to bring this up to him with great fear he was avoiding RTB (which didn't concern me prior), and will hack me out the house for this stress. Im unsure if its a case of tax or forgetting to, as I transfer him the rent on a monthly basis via bank?

In what ways may this pan out?

TLDR; I am the main tenant in a house my landlord owns. I have licensees under me, and now RTB is after me because they think I'm the landlord and have not registered them.

The fact that your landlord didn't register your tenancy with the rtb is his problem, not yours. Your copy of the tenancy agreement will prove that very quickly. After that I don't think you've much to worry about.

retropessir

terrydel wrote: »

The fact that your landlord didn't register your tenancy with the rtb is his problem, not yours. Your copy of the tenancy agreement will prove that very quickly. After that I don't think you've much to worry about.

My problem is that I don't want to lose my accommodation over this if it upsets him. He's been great, and I very much enjoy living there. I under no circumstance want to cause him further trouble despite it being his own fault for not registering, as this is only an issue now because of this girl trying to raise the issue with me and the RTB.

Will this in essence just give him a slap on the wrist to pay the late fee, and this girl's issue with me will then leave as RTB have no jurisdiction over licensee's? I'm planning on telling him in that case, that they have found out about me living there somehow and have asked me who the landlord is.

terrydel

retropessir wrote: »

My problem is that I don't want to lose my accommodation over this if it upsets him. He's been great, and I very much enjoy living there. I under no circumstance want to cause him further trouble despite it being his own fault for not registering, as this is only an issue now because of this girl trying to raise the issue with me and the RTB.

Will this in essence just give him a slap on the wrist to pay the late fee, and this girl's issue with me will then leave as RTB have no jurisdiction over licensee's? I'm planning on telling him in that case, that they have found out about me living there somehow and have asked me who the landlord is.

All depends why he didn't register, some landlords do it to reduce the paper trail when it comes to paying income tax on the income. If he has been avoiding that, then he could be in a lot of hassle. But you can't take the fall for him, he's an adult so if he's been breaking the rules and gets caught, tough. He can't kick you out without good and very specific reasons either.

Cuddlesworth

retropessir wrote: »

(a) I am now having to send proof of licensee agreements to them. Am I correct, in all my researching? She did have exclusive occupancy of her room. But it was known that because I am the tenant, I can switch people around rooms at any time, and access it if I wished (I do not). They may come back and ask for proof that I am the main tenant, in which I would need to prove my contract with the landlord..no problem but..
(b) amidst this, I have realized my landlord has not registered MY tenancy with him over a year ago, despite having asked him to before I moved in. Now, he is actually amazing, and I am afraid to bring this up to him with great fear he was avoiding RTB (which didn't concern me prior), and will hack me out the house for this stress. Im unsure if its a case of tax or forgetting to, as I transfer him the rent on a monthly basis via bank?

In what ways may this pan out?

TLDR; I am the main tenant in a house my landlord owns. I have licensees under me, and now RTB is after me because they think I'm the landlord and have not registered them.

1 - You just say the facts. You live in the property, she rented a room in the property. If required, present Utility bills in your name. Its up to her to prove otherwise.

2 - Your tenancy is not relevant to her complaint. She paid money to you, to rent a room in a property you live in.

terrydel

terrydel wrote: »

All depends why he didn't register, some landlords do it to reduce the paper trail when it comes to paying income tax on the income. If he has been avoiding that, then he could be in a lot of hassle.

Again, you are making assumptions, unfounded ones with no basis, that the ops landlord is engaged in tax evasion. And again, not registering does not aid you in avoiding income tax, the money is being paid into a bank account and the property will be registered with Revenue for LPT so they have a record of it. Why are you stating as fact things you have no knowledge nor proof of? This does not help the OP with his/her predicament.

The LL can register at any time by paying a late reg fee, it appears from the details given by the OP that the problem occupant was a licensee so the OP need not worry. He/She just informs the LL of the situation and forwards the licensee contract to the RTB along with proof that the occupant was paying rent to the lead tenant's account rather than the LL.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

terrydel wrote: »

The fact that your landlord didn't register your tenancy with the rtb is his problem, not yours. Your copy of the tenancy agreement will prove that very quickly. After that I don't think you've much to worry about.

Other than the taxman :eek:.

terrydel

Dav010 wrote: »

Again, you are making assumptions, unfounded ones with no basis, that the ops landlord is engaged in tax evasion. And again, not registering does not aid you in avoiding income tax, the money is being paid into a bank account and the property will be registered with Revenue for LPT so they have a record of it. Why are you stating as fact things you have no knowledge nor proof of? This does not help the OP with his/her predicament.

The LL can register at any time by paying a late reg fee, it appears from the details given by the OP that the problem occupant was a licensee so the OP need not worry. He/She just informs the LL of the situation and forwards the licensee contract to the RTB along with proof that the occupant was paying rent to the lead tenant's account rather than the LL.

I said if, and in any case I don't require your permission to reply as I see fit.
The op asked a question regarding how he might react, and I've made an entirely valid point that if he isn't paying tax then he could have a big problem. It is my own personal experience that some landlords who don't register do so out of a belief and /or in an attempt to avoid income tax. Are you calling me a liar? And as I said to you before and you failed to comprehend, so long as a landlord believes, whether correctly or incorrectly, that not registering aids in escaping paying income tax, they have motivation to do so. If you wish to call me a liar or have issue with my replies in good faith to any post, pm me to discuss

Julianna Thundering Mind

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

Other than the taxman :eek:.

There are no tax issues for the op.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

Elsie Skinny Veranda wrote: »

There are no tax issues for the op.

There are if didn't claim rent a room relief and/or if rental income is above threshold. RTB could be the least of this persons worries depending on how much money is being pulled in.

cfingers

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

There are if didn't claim rent a room relief and/or if rental income is above threshold. RTB could be the least of this persons worries depending on how much money is being pulled in.

The op would only be liable for profit on rent recieved versus rent paid for property. This is probably negative.

Phileas Frog

cfingers wrote: »

The op would only be liable for profit on rent recieved versus rent paid for property. This is probably negative.

It would if course have to be declared either way on a Form 11/12

Julianna Thundering Mind

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

There are if didn't claim rent a room relief and/or if rental income is above threshold. RTB could be the least of this persons worries depending on how much money is being pulled in.

He has no tax liability regardless. Even if it's not declared they can't fine or add penalties as there is no liability. Its not going to come to light either so I wouldn't be worrying about it.

In anycase I don't think it's required to declare anyway when it's just being passed directly to the LL. The op is just the head tenant acting on the LLs behalf collecting rent.

jimmycrackcorm

Phileas Frog wrote: »

It would if course have to be declared either way on a Form 11/12

At the end of the year so it's not an issue.
Op, as another poster suggested, provide proof to the RTB showing that you live there, that she was a licensee and theta nothing they can do.

spaceHopper

As far as I know the penlity for late not it regeristering a Tennant is double the fee. It's easy to miss doing it on time so if you miss it you may as well not register. If you are paying into LLs bank you can be sure he's tax compliant. Let him know what's happening its a good system your saving him a lot of hassle. He could ba k you up with a letter There is two weeks rent here the RTB have better thingsto be doing.

The_Conductor

Look- your tenancy situation is not pertinent to the current query.
You are letting a room to the girl, and you live in the property.
Get a few utility bills in your name- and forward them along with a brief note, to the RTB, advising them that as you are occupying the property and she was letting the room from you- it is a defacto licensee arrangement.
Whatever arrangement you have with the landlord- is neither here nor there- nor relevant to the current issue.
If the RTB decide to take issue with the status of your personal tenancy- that is an entirely separate matter and will be dealt with as such.

I'd also suggest that it might be a good idea for you to invoke the rent-a-room scheme if the gross income from letting the room (or rooms) is less than 14k per annum- as it clears up any tax liability you may have as a result of letting the rooms. Technically- you are liable to pay tax on any rental income you get from letting the rooms- wholly irrespective of whether or not it is a profitable enterprise- so wholly aside from any issues the landlord may possibly have with the Revenue Commissioners- you may have issues yourself.

Being a 'head tenant' and letting rooms under license to others- is revenue generating, and is viewed as taxable income. Try to shelter this if at all possible.

The whole situation is a can of worms- and if Revenue had half a mind to, could blow up in both your face and your landlord's face.........
Will they be even remotely interested- probably not- but it is in your interest to try and make sure your end of the equation is properly squared off.

myshirt

The main problem here may be that the op put a 'contract' in place and seems to be what I would call a kerbside lawyer or Google merchant. Which is dangerous.

The RTB don't like smart arses and as we all know are a law onto themselves. Fine and well for us to say they don't have any jurisdiction, but how far do you have to go to prove that and how much will it cost you. It's like the wild west.

Post back how you get on op.

The Student

terrydel wrote: »

All depends why he didn't register, some landlords do it to reduce the paper trail when it comes to paying income tax on the income. If he has been avoiding that, then he could be in a lot of hassle. But you can't take the fall for him, he's an adult so if he's been breaking the rules and gets caught, tough. He can't kick you out without good and very specific reasons either.

The poster has indicated that they are living in the property for a year. Tax due on income for the period 2018 is not due until the 31st Oct 2019. The poster specifically mentioned that the rent is paid by bank transfer so if the landlord was trying to avoid tax why exactly would he then accept the rent via a bank account.

The poster enquired about the RTB process and if the landlord has not registered then the extent of the penalty is twice the registration fee.

Why do you feel the need to raise the tax issue and add to the posters concerns that it may impact on his remaining in the property. What if the landlord actually is fully tax compliant and you have given the poster unnecessary worry. What if it actually slipped the landlords memory to register the tenancy and it was just a simple error on his part.

The Student

retropessir wrote: »

Hi

I've been renting a house for the past year from my landlord. There are multiple bedrooms and he's very much aware that I let out the other rooms to others before I signed the contract. I am the main tenant in said house, and I have licensee's under me. Each licensee has a contract with me (whether people think verbal is the way to go or not, this is to my benefit as well as I handle their damage deposits and rent, and it outlines basic rules).

In May a girl gave her 30 day notice because she wanted to move somewhere where she could have a dog, and she found such a place. A week after this there was an argument because I had been cleaning up after her continuously since March. She started getting heated and she went way overboard, saying that she would refuse to pay further bills until she leaves, that I must take it from her deposit. I said that while she lives in the house, she is resposible for paying her bills, otherwise I would serve a shorter notice than the 30 day one she provided me (as per contract), as I wouldn't be racking up her bills on my own behalf to pay. I did not serve her a notice at this stage, but she then agreed to pay them after I told her this would be the case if she did not.

Turns out, about 14 days after her initial notice, she decided to move into said accommodation earlier as it was available to her already and she moved. She was still liable for the remainder of the rent for that time, which I deducted from her deposit, and returned the rest. She made a fit saying that she wasn't liable for those remaining days because she left early. She has now went to RTB.

Now, RTB have contacted ME, assuming I am a landlord and saying that I have an unregistered tenancy (i.e her before she left). Obviously this is not the case as she is not liable for Part 4 of the 2004 RTA (Less than 6 months in the house), and obviously I am the main tenant in which she was renting from.

My problem is now two-fold:
(a) I am now having to send proof of licensee agreements to them. Am I correct, in all my researching? She did have exclusive occupancy of her room. But it was known that because I am the tenant, I can switch people around rooms at any time, and access it if I wished (I do not). They may come back and ask for proof that I am the main tenant, in which I would need to prove my contract with the landlord..no problem but..
(b) amidst this, I have realized my landlord has not registered MY tenancy with him over a year ago, despite having asked him to before I moved in. Now, he is actually amazing, and I am afraid to bring this up to him with great fear he was avoiding RTB (which didn't concern me prior), and will hack me out the house for this stress. Im unsure if its a case of tax or forgetting to, as I transfer him the rent on a monthly basis via bank?

In what ways may this pan out?

TLDR; I am the main tenant in a house my landlord owns. I have licensees under me, and now RTB is after me because they think I'm the landlord and have not registered them.

If you have a good relationship with your landlord just explain everything. For what its worth I don't think the landlord is trying to avoid tax otherwise he would have requested payment in cash.

I am led to believe a licensee does not come under the remit of RTB. The only issue for the RTB is the fact that your tenancy is not registered. Your landlord will have to pay the penalty of twice the registration fee for the late registration. A simple check of the Land Registry by the RTB will show who actually owns the property and therefore who the landlord is.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

Elsie Skinny Veranda wrote: »

He has no tax liability regardless. Even if it's not declared they can't fine or add penalties as there is no liability. Its not going to come to light either so I wouldn't be worrying about it.

In anycase I don't think it's required to declare anyway when it's just being passed directly to the LL. The op is just the head tenant acting on the LLs behalf collecting rent.

We don't know how much rent is being pulled in, how many tenancies are in the property or what this persons tax liabilities (if any) are. Form 11 is required to be filled if a person wishes to avail of the rent a room relief. Otherwise it's income & taxable. The licensee already went to the RTB, so I wouldn't be too sure.

terrydel

The Student wrote: »

The poster has indicated that they are living in the property for a year. Tax due on income for the period 2018 is not due until the 31st Oct 2019. The poster specifically mentioned that the rent is paid by bank transfer so if the landlord was trying to avoid tax why exactly would he then accept the rent via a bank account.

The poster enquired about the RTB process and if the landlord has not registered then the extent of the penalty is twice the registration fee.

Why do you feel the need to raise the tax issue and add to the posters concerns that it may impact on his remaining in the property. What if the landlord actually is fully tax compliant and you have given the poster unnecessary worry. What if it actually slipped the landlords memory to register the tenancy and it was just a simple error on his part.

My current landlord takes our rent via bank transfer, and was recently collared for not declaring the income, it happens.

The poster asked how the landlord might react, so I replied with an entirely valid point that the landlord may react badly if they are trying to hide this income. Are you seriously suggesting that this is not even a slight possibility? Are landlords some sort of saintly section of society who never bend the laws of break the rules? The op had no issue with the reply so why you have one is a mystery.

The Student

terrydel wrote: »

My current landlord takes our rent via bank transfer, and was recently collared for not declaring the income, it happens.[/QUOT

That does not mean every landlord is the same.

You may have added to the posters worries regarding his living arrangements with no facts to justify your post regarding hiding money from the Revenue.

What if the landlord is fully tax compliant and just forgot to register with the RTB?

terrydel

The Student wrote: »

terrydel wrote: »

My current landlord takes our rent via bank transfer, and was recently collared for not declaring the income, it happens.[/QUOT

That does not mean every landlord is the same.

You may have added to the posters worries regarding his living arrangements with no facts to justify your post regarding hiding money from the Revenue.

What if the landlord is fully tax compliant and just forgot to register with the RTB?

I'll let the op speak for themselves, I'm sure they are well able.
They asked for opinions, none of us have the full facts so following your logic nobody should reply at all.
The op appears to have no issue with my replies, given in good faith. That'll do for me.

The Student

terrydel wrote: »

The Student wrote: »

I'll let the op speak for themselves, I'm sure they are well able.
They asked for opinions, none of us have the full facts so following your logic nobody should reply at all.
The op appears to have no issue with my replies, given in good faith. That'll do for me.

Based on some of your posts it appears (I could be wrong) that you have an issue with landlords.

The original post was asking how to deal with the RTB and the licensee leaving early. The tenant followed the correct procedure and should produce the appropriate paperwork to the RTB to prove they he is just a tenant and at the same time have the courtesy to advise the landlord accordingly.

Whether a landlord is tax compliant or not has nothing to do with any tenant. The tenant paid rent to rent a property, whether the landlord has paid tax has no impact on the tenants receiving the use of the property.

You are correct the op can decide what course of action they can or should take.

terrydel

terrydel wrote: »

The Student wrote: »

I'll let the op speak for themselves, I'm sure they are well able.
They asked for opinions, none of us have the full facts so following your logic nobody should reply at all.
The op appears to have no issue with my replies, given in good faith. That'll do for me.

The op did not question the tax compliance status of the landlord, as this in no way effects the op nor his/her situation with former occupant. Why you feel this is relevant is beyond me and others.

Your assumption that many landlords are so ignorant of taxation that they would even consider that non registration with the RTB in some way aides tax evasion, or should be considered as evidence of tax evasion is mind boggling.

From the details posted, it appears the op is the lead tenant, the disgruntled former occupant, a licensee. The RTB registration is the LLs responsibility, a late reg fee applies when he does get around to it.

mickoneill31

Seems like this could be sorted with a phone call.

Hi, I live at x and I rented a room to y. I've received a letter from you regarding y. As y was a licencee and living in the house with me what do I need to provide you?

And follow up with
I thought that a licencee agreement does not need to be registered with the RTB. I got this from https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/sharing_accommodation_with_your_landlord.html
Is that correct?

If you get somebody with half a brain they will probably ask for some letter to prove you were living in the house. And then leave you alone.

terrydel

The Student wrote: »

terrydel wrote: »

Based on some of your posts it appears (I could be wrong) that you have an issue with landlords.

The original post was asking how to deal with the RTB and the licensee leaving early. The tenant followed the correct procedure and should produce the appropriate paperwork to the RTB to prove they he is just a tenant and at the same time have the courtesy to advise the landlord accordingly.

Whether a landlord is tax compliant or not has nothing to do with any tenant. The tenant paid rent to rent a property, whether the landlord has paid tax has no impact on the tenants receiving the use of the property.

You are correct the op can decide what course of action they can or should take.

It does have something to do with it, because the tenant asked how the landlord would react if they brought the matter to them.
I simply said it could be an issue IF (I did not say they are or are not) tax compliant, as the landlord now having to declare to rtb that hes a landlord (they clearly dont know hes the landlord at this property because they think the op is) could bring any issues around tax into focus. Thats an entirely reasonable response to the op's question about bringing this up with the landlord and what reaction it might get. Landlords, just like all walks of society, arent always truthful to revenue, shock horror but its true. If the op goes to the landlord and says 'rtb thinks im the landlord, youll have to tell them its you' he might not welcome that if hes trousering the rent for himself.

terrydel

Dav010 wrote: »

terrydel wrote: »

The op did not question the tax compliance status of the landlord, as this in no way effects the op nor his/her situation with former occupant. Why you feel this is relevant is beyond me and others.

Your assumption that many landlords are so ignorant of taxation that they would even consider that non registration with the RTB in some way aides tax evasion, or should be considered as evidence of tax evasion is mind boggling.

From the details posted, it appears the op is the lead tenant, the disgruntled former occupant, a licensee. The RTB registration is the LLs responsibility, a late reg fee applies when he does get around to it.

Your inability to actually comprehend what someone is saying is mind boggling.
As I said to you multiple times, i know of a number of landlords who felt registering made them viisible to revenue and not doing so improved their chances of avoiding tax and didnt register for that reason. You will say thats a lie because it doesnt suit your narrative. I was a landlord for 14 years so have plenty of experience of landlords, good and bad, and plenty arent informed and have mistaken beliefs that if they dont register they can avoid the tax on the income.
You idea that all landlords know the rules inside out and follow them to the letter is utterly laughable.

terrydel

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Seems like this could be sorted with a phone call.

Hi, I live at x and I rented a room to y. I've received a letter from you regarding y. As y was a licencee and living in the house with me what do I need to provide you?

And follow up with
I thought that a licencee agreement does not need to be registered with the RTB. I got this from https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/sharing_accommodation_with_your_landlord.html
Is that correct?

If you get somebody with half a brain they will probably ask for some letter to prove you were living in the house. And then leave you alone.

They think the op is the landlord, the op will prove she is not, at which point they will want to know who is (they clearly dont already as its not registered with them). The op is wondering how their ll will react if they inform rtb that he/she is the landlord and not the op. Well they should have no issue if everything is above board, if not, then they might have an issue.

mickoneill31

terrydel wrote: »

They think the op is the landlord, the op will prove she is not, at which point they will want to know who is (they clearly dont already as its not registered with them). The op is wondering how their ll will react if they inform rtb that he/she is the landlord and not the op. Well they should have no issue if everything is above board, if not, then they might have an issue.

The op is the landlord to the licencee and the op was living with the tenant.
That's the info they're looking for.
They don't have a remit for licencees so proving this should be enough for them to move on.

retropessir

Hi, OP here.

I am delighted that there has been such an outreach since I posted this last night, I will try to respond to all. I appreciate everyone's responses about their theories about the number of avenues this might go down. In the mean time I have made an appointment with a solicitor to discuss the above for next Tuesday. I also plan to follow up when all is said and done for others to see in future in case they have the same issue.

After I received the letter of them stating I am a landlord with unregistered tenancies, I replied back to their email provided that "There have been no tenants to register under myself at this address, which is why no registration has taken place. There has been a licensee at this accommodation only, in which case is not pursuant to section 144(2) of the residential tenancies act 2004 to 2006, nor the remit of the RTB."

Their response was asking me for a copy of a licensee agreement with no specifics as to whos. At this stage I did not realize it had anything to do with her going to them, so I sent them a copy of a current licensee's contract signed with me in June 2019. They then asked me for one in relation to this woman's which was signed in April 2019, and have asked if I lived at this address at this time. I then of course put two and two together that it was hers. They have not asked for specifics regarding her situation, they seem to just be trying to figure out what I am (i.e a tenant or landlord), in order to assess if they have jurisdiction over her referral one would assume. Of course, I can provide gas, internet, electricity bills and my tenancy contract to prove this. No issue here. But I am going to wait if the solicitor advises what I should actually supply them rather than blindly giving them what they ask for. This should sort out issue A from my initial post.

Issue the landlord and if he's evading tax or what his story is, etc.. I will hold off telling him until they actually ask about him. I don't feel like there's any point going to him and explaining everything to him while everything is up in the air. At the moment, they still need me to get back to them proving I am a tenant which I shall do next week.

New issue I'll refer to as C) for my own tax purposes. I only moved into this house in July 2017. Since the tax year is from Jan 1- Dec 31 2017, in those 6 months I did not exceed 14,000 (including bills), and qualify for the rent-a-room-relief scheme. As for 2018, I certainly have exceeded it. I need to sort this out. I have not filled this out on revenue yet which was VERY stupid of me, however I plan on getting sorted ASAP. I'm a student and basically divided the rent amongst the other 4 rooms. The total rent I pay the landlord in a calendar year exceeds the 14,000 threshold.

Sarn

retropessir wrote: »

New issue I'll refer to as C) for my own tax purposes. I only moved into this house in July 2017. Since the tax year is from Jan 1- Dec 31 2017, in those 6 months I did not exceed 14,000 (including bills), and qualify for the rent-a-room-relief scheme. As for 2018, I certainly have exceeded it. I need to sort this out. I have not filled this out on revenue yet which was VERY stupid of me, however I plan on getting sorted ASAP. I'm a student and basically divided the rent amongst the other 4 rooms. The total rent I pay the landlord in a calendar year exceeds the 14,000 threshold.

Just be careful with your tax liability. As you exceeded €14,000 you will have to pay tax on the full amount. If it is just a case of collecting rent as an intermediary then you will be ok.

Edit: if you’ve no other income then there will unlikely be any tax to pay, but would still need to be declared.

The Student

terrydel wrote: »

From the op's very first post -

'(b) amidst this, I have realized my landlord has not registered MY tenancy with him over a year ago, despite having asked him to before I moved in. '

Are you happy for that situation to continue? Yes or no answer please.

Lads talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

To try and get this back on track. The main tenant is the only tenant in the eyes of the RTB. The other people living in the house are licensee's (you cant be a tenant and a licensee at the same time).

The extent of the RTB's remit on this matter from the tenants perspective is the non registration of the main tenancy and irrespective of the non registration the tenant is protected by the RTB.

The RTB has no jurisdiction over licensee arrangements.

The tenant should advise the landlord of the correspondence they have received, burying their head in the sand is not going to help, out of courtesy they should advise the landlord (who knew what will come out when the RTB contact the landlord for non registration of the main tenancy anyway).

Any other issues regarding the rights or wrongs of non registration is not the op's fault nor is any issue regarding the landlords tax status whether its above board or not.

It never ceases to amaze me how simple questions on boards gets turned to whatever agenda the boardies have a gripe about.

Cuddlesworth

retropessir wrote: »

I believe the moving around just means that their accommodation (i.e bedroom) is not exclusive. The nature of the complaint was noted in my first post

One of the main points around exclusivity and the exemptions to the RTB is that a person cannot have exclusive rights to a room in somebody else's house while they live there. Even recent attempts to change how licensees are viewed does not change that.

So if the RTB come back to you again, you just reiterate its your house, you live there and she was renting a room in it.

Cuddlesworth

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

One of the main points around exclusivity and the exemptions to the RTB is that a person cannot have exclusive rights to a room in somebody else's house while they live there. Even recent attempts to change how licensees are viewed does not change that.

So if the RTB come back to you again, you just reiterate its your house, you live there and she was renting a room in it.

Exactly, tell them a licensee agreement is not a requirement either that it was just word of mouth which is how rent a room scheme is normally done. Tell them it's your house, you live there and that you don’t expect to hear from them again full stop.

No idea why they think the op should have to provide a licensee agreement, I certainly would not be providing any agreement with a licensee as it will do nothing but make the licensee think they have rights.

retropessir

Cheers all.

I have replied to their email in which they have asked for the licensee agreement from the woman. They also asked me to confirm if I occupied the address in April 2019. I replied stating that a licensee agreement is not a requirement and in lieu attached two separate utility bills with my name on them from that month. I reiterated that the complaint was from a licensee who was letting a non-exclusive room from me at that time.

The_Conductor

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

Inconsistencies.....

Cop on.
Please address the OP's query in a constructive manner.

The_Conductor

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

Cop on about what exactly? I am pointing out there's inconsistencies between the two posts. One says they are living in the house for one year and the second says since July 2017.

It doesn't matter how long they have been living in the property.
They have clearly and unequivocally stated they are renting the property from the owner and subletting rooms to others. The length of time they have been renting the property- has no bearing whatsoever on their relationship with their licensees.

Deliberately trying to find inconsistencies in their narrative which have no bearing whatsoever on the question they are asking/information they are seeking clarity on- is needlessly nitpicking in a manner that has no relevance to the actual query.

retropessir

Can we please collectively agree to ignore whattow’s further posts. I don’t think anyone is finding them helpful and they’re steering my post in a completely argumentative and opposite direction.

Nobody is evading tax. I was simply ignorant to the laws regarding this. Compliant in 2017. In regards to 2018 it isn’t even time to fill in the Form 11/12 as I have til October to do so, so have not done anything wrong. Still have time to fill in form and pay the tax. I am aware and it will be sorted – not that it’s any of your business.

Best of luck and cheers.

retropessir

travist wrote: »

I wonder why did she was so disgruntled? Did you hold on to the month deposit, yet rent the room out to someone else within the same time period?

She was disgruntled for the reasons stated prior.

travist

so basically,.in her mind... you didn't give her a fair amount back anyway. Brings a lot of trouble now for that extra few quid.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

retropessir wrote: »

I said the facts because you brought up RTA legislation which is not a factor here. The fact she decided to give her 30 days notice so she could live somewhere that would allow her to get a dog is her own decision. The fact she did not pay rent for those remaining days and moved out earlier was also a decision of hers. I accepted her 30 days. I held what was constituted for the rent she did not pay within those final 30 days.

Nobody has taken advantage of this woman, nothing is “telling” about her decision to stay two months, to not pay the remaining rent and then be held accountable.

If the person is a licensee, termination notice is at your discretion, which is a reasonable time to leave the property. So I assume, licensees have similar rights. So on what legal basis did you keep part of the deposit for the rent of the rest of the month? I am also going to risk a ban & say straight up I don't think we're getting the whole story. I get the impression that along with tax issues there's some level of overcrowding.

retropessir

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

If the person is a licensee, termination notice is at your discretion, which is a reasonable time to leave the property. So I assume, licensees have similar rights. So on what legal basis did you keep part of the deposit for the rent of the rest of the month?

She gave her notice in the middle of the May, which means she was to move out in middle of June. She had already paid for the month of May. Rent for June was due June 1st. She left on the last day of May where there were 15 days left in her 30 day notice. She was liable for the remainder of her notice. She was disgruntled because those 15 days were deducted from her deposit. She believes she was due that back simply because she wasn’t in the accommodation.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

retropessir wrote: »

She gave her notice in the middle of the May, which means she was to move out in middle of June. She had already paid for the month of May. Rent for June was due June 1st. She left on the last day of May where there were 15 days left in her 30 day notice. She was liable for the remainder of her notice. She was disgruntled because those 15 days in June were deducted from her deposit. She believes she was due that back simply because she wasn’t in the accommodation. In addition, our contract states this, which she also signed her name to prior to moving in.

Licensees can move out at a moments notice, in the same way that you can evict within the time it takes for her to pack her bags. There's no legal basis to hold part of the rent & I doubt the contract would stand up. Rent a room relief also does not apply as you're renting out more than one room. There's a definite tax liability.

The_Conductor

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

Licensees can move out at a moments notice, in the same way that you can evict within the time it takes for her to pack her bags. There's no legal basis to hold part of the rent & I doubt the contract would stand up.

The OP gave her a contract.
Rightly or wrongly- it is legally binding on both of them.
Whether you choose to enforce it or not, is an entirely different matter.
For the sake of a quiet life- I'd be inclined not to pursue it.
For whatever reason- the OP choose to enforce it.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

The_Conductor wrote: »

The OP gave her a contract.
Rightly or wrongly- it is legally binding on both of them.
Whether you choose to enforce it or not, is an entirely different matter.

Not likely. Small things like unfair terms heavily weighted in one persons favour is all it takes to make a contract non-binding. OP opened a whole can of worms by withholding part of the deposit. Revenue will also know about set-up because both orgs communicate with each other too.

The_Conductor

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

Not likely. Small things like unfair terms heavily weighted in one persons favour is all it takes to make a contract non-binding. OP opened a whole can of worms by withholding part of the deposit. Revenue will also know about set-up because both orgs communicate with each other too.

A 30 day notice contract- is far from unusual in such instances (however, it is normally recommended not to give a licensee a contract, full stop, as in general, by giving them a contract, you are inferring rights on them that they are not necessarily entitled to).

As for the RTB and Revenue sharing information- yep, they do- however, not in the case of licensees- who do not come under the remit of the RTB. A licensee situation would be the obligation of the primary dweller in a property to notify to the Revenue Commissioners via an annual tax return. Regardless of whether or not they hit the 14k limit- they are legally obligated to report the income in full, and liable for tax on it in its entirety at their marginal rate of taxation. Once they keep under the 14k- no tax, not even USC or PRSI, is due.

In this instance- as it is a licensee situation (regardless of whether or not the gross income comes under the 14k, or not)- any notice obligation to the Revenue Commissioners- rests with the OP- and not the RTB.

You seem intent on murkying the waters- by exploring avenues that simply are not pertinent to the OP's query. Please stop doing so. If you have good relevant information- directly answering the OP's query- feel free to impart it- otherwise- please stop trying to derail the OP's thread.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

The_Conductor wrote: »

A 30 day notice contract- is far from unusual in such instances (however, it is normally recommended not to give a licensee a contract, full stop, as in general, by giving them a contract, you are inferring rights on them that they are not necessarily entitled to).

As for the RTB and Revenue sharing information- yep, they do- however, not in the case of licensees- who do not come under the remit of the RTB. A licensee situation would be the obligation of the primary dweller in a property to notify to the Revenue Commissioners via an annual tax return. Regardless of whether or not they hit the 14k limit- they are legally obligated to report the income in full, and liable for tax on it in its entirety at their marginal rate of taxation (if they exceed 14k). Once they keep under the 14k- no tax, not even USC or PRSI, is due.

In this instance- as it is a licensee situation (regardless of whether or not the gross income comes under the 14k, or not)- any notice obligation to the Revenue Commissioners- rests with the OP- and not the RTB.

You seem intent on murkying the waters- by exploring avenues that simply are not pertinent to the OP's query. Please stop doing so. If you have good relevant information- directly answering the OP's query- feel free to impart it- otherwise- please stop trying to derail the OP's thread.

Tax advisor begs to differ re Revenue. How is it murkeying the waters by telling the OP that there's tax liabilities, that they cannot claim rent a room relief, that the contract has no legal standing, after six months licensees can apply to go on the lease and can revert to the RTB, & pointing out inconsistencies. Would have thought that it's best the OP knows what ahead and what they're dealing with rather than people telling them what they want to hear.

The_Conductor

Whattow- do not post any further in this thread.
Thankyou.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

Tax advisor begs to differ re Revenue. How is it murkeying the waters by telling the OP that there's tax liabilities, that they cannot claim rent a room relief, that the contract has no legal standing, after six months licensees can apply to go on the lease and can revert to the RTB, & pointing out inconsistencies. Would have thought that it's best the OP knows what ahead and what they're dealing with rather than people telling them what they want to hear.

You can’t reply but I’ll make a few points myself.

I’m not unsympathetic to the licensee here as I think the op could have left the 15 days go but:

1) he’s clearly well aware of tax liabilities and says he is compliant
2) the contract for licensees is valid provided it’s legal in itself and fair to both parties. If both sides agree to 30 days that’s legal. I know this because I had a contract when I rented in an owner occupied house and used it.
3) the 6 months is clearly not relevant here.

All the op has to worry about is that the landlord may get caught up in this.

retropessir

Because the topic of not giving back 15 days worth of deposit back for rent has been brought up, I just wanted to clarify for the sake of anyone’s curiosity – apart from it being owed to me by agreement in contract by herself.

The reason I was unsympathetic towards the deposit was because when this woman moved in, she had a sob story I fell for and purchased things for her that she needed out of my own pocket (lesson learned). She then wanted to move somewhere she would be allowed a dog since I was clear that a dog wasn’t allowed in the accommodation.

I actually went with her the day to see the accommodation she was interested in. She gave me the 30 day notice on this day.

A week later I asked her to clean up garbage she was leaving around the house that I stopped wanting to take responsibility to clean up after.

She became heated about being asked to do something, and refused to pay a bill that came up in discussion that was due while she was angry (Wasnt surprised, she couldn’t afford basic things when she arrived that I covered for her. But with the deposit I didn’t worry about not having the money to cover things she couldn’t afford, such as rent or bills.) I then said I wouldn’t be paying further things for her she’s responsible for (I.e bills) in addition to what I already bought for her out of my own pocket when she arrived. She then agreed to pay the bill and it was fine. She then left early without paying the remainder of the rent as per above. Wasn’t surprised. I retained the deposit for what was owed to me – rent only. Did not add onto it the groceries I bought her, basic living essentials..

She was a massive financial liability in the end with absolutely no regard for others she lived with.

Being a licensee, I was prepared to have this come up in SCC, however not with the RTB which clearly have no jurisdiction.