Mass shooting in Dayton Ohio

banie01

Another mass shooting in US today with multiple fatalities.(Within 13hrs of El Paso attack)

Edit: 9 dead and 26 wounded in Dayton Ohio.
The shooter was killed within @1minute of opening fire yet 35people were hit.
Surely evidence that high capacity semi auto or full auto have no real place in "public" hands.
Shooter also in body armour

The US is reaping the benefits of Trump and right wing antagonism.
I really do hope that some change can be brought about to cut the volume of these incidents and reduce the divisiveness that is driving so many people to these acts

That White men are the primary actors in these attacks, needs to be addressed and dealt with.

p1akuw47h5r3it

How so?

banie01

DanDan6592 wrote: »

How so?

How are white men behind most attacks in US at present?

Or how do I propose that, that particular factor be dealt with?

Silentcorner

"White men"...jesus christ...is that kind of bigotry appropriate?

p1akuw47h5r3it

banie01 wrote: »

How are white men behind most attacks in US at present?

Or how do I propose that, that particular factor be dealt with?

The 2nd one.

banie01

DanDan6592 wrote: »

The 2nd one.

Honestly I don't know.
There is no simple overarching answer.
Identifying the factors that drive people to think that mass shootings are a path to anything other than death?
What change other than efforts to restrict gun ownership have these actions ever wrought in the US?
Use the tactics already in place in the UK to deradicalise those people.

The kneejerk reaction is always "control the guns".
There are so many in circulation Stateside, and gun ownership is so ingrained in the consciousness of the US that just taking them, restricting or reducing them isn't an immediate option.

If school shootings and dead children haven't caused a backlash in ownership, I don't think much else will TBH.
There does need to be a concerted effort to recognise the causes of disaffection that drives these attacks.
They need to be addressed as terrorism.
The rush to paint each new attack as a mental health issue and tie the gun ownership issue up in that dialogue needs to stop IMO.

A concerted effort to identify and address the "Native"
and anti immigration element and the drive behind violence rather than civil action.
Violence rarely has a part to play in politics and when your argument descends to violence, unless you are trying to force another party to negotiate...
You have already lost.

banie01

Silentcorner wrote: »

"White men"...jesus christ...is that kind of bigotry appropriate?

As a white man...
Yes

InTheShadows

More thinly veiled anti white people racism.

banie01

InTheShadows wrote: »

More thinly veiled anti white people racism.

What's thinly veiled about it?
If it were multiple attacks being carried about by any portion of a population with their ethnicity as a driver, surely it should be called out for what it is?

Is it racist to describe black on black violence as a black problem?
Is it racist to call out Latino gang crime as a Latino problem?

When the shooters race/ethnicity is a driving factor in why they shoot, why is it racist to query it?

careless sherpa

banie01 wrote: »

Honestly I don't know.
There is no simple overarching answer.
Identifying the factors that drive people to think that mass shootings are a path to anything other than death?
What change other than efforts to restrict gun ownership have these actions ever wrought in the US?
Use the tactics already in place in the UK to deradicalise those people.

The kneejerk reaction is always "control the guns".
There are so many in circulation Stateside, and gun ownership is so ingrained in the consciousness of the US that just taking them, restricting or reducing them isn't an immediate option.

If school shootings and dead children haven't caused a backlash in ownership, I don't think much else will TBH.
There does need to be a concerted effort to recognise the causes of disaffection that drives these attacks.
They need to be addressed as terrorism.
The rush to paint each new attack as a mental health issue and tie the gun ownership issue up in that dialogue needs to stop IMO.

A concerted effort to identify and address the "Native"
and anti immigration element and the drive behind violence rather than civil action.
Violence rarely has a part to play in politics and when your argument descends to violence, unless you are trying to force another party to negotiate...
You have already lost.

This sort of stuff is driven by a disconnect the perpetrator feels with society. It is built from a foundation of the neo liberal economic basis to society. Dog eat dog, survival of the fittest. That the perpetrators are neither does not stop them trying to be for a fleeting moment. The removal of society and economy from a rational construct to one firmly routed in the belief of a natural order is leading to greater disconnectedness

TheValeyard

You can blame Trump for a lot of things. But US shootings have been going on for countless years, regardless of who is in power. After Sandyhook Obama did everything to try curb gun violence but met a powerful brick wall. If Sandy hook could not convince Americans to change, nothing would or will.

InTheShadows

Black's kill more people per day with guns than any other sector of American society. But you know Trump something something

InTheShadows

TheValeyard wrote: »

You can blame Trump for a lot of things. But US shootings have been going on for countless years, regardless of who is in power. After Sandyhook Obama did everything to try curb gun violence but met a powerful brick wall. If Sandy hook could not convince Americans to change, nothing would or will.

This. If Sandy Hook didn't end the gun debate nothing will.

rizzodun

InTheShadows wrote: »

More thinly veiled anti white people racism.

I remember not so long ago when anything terrorist related happened on this site you wouldn't get 10 posts in before someone mentioned "religion of peace"

banie01

Just to add.
Regarding Dayton.
I do not yet know the Ethnicity or Motivations of that particular shooter...

It does not alter IMO the fact that the majority of mass shooter in the US are disaffected White men.
It is a conmanality that is quite pronounced and needs to be addressed IMO.

The driving factors behind the radicalism that drives anyone of any colour to believe pulling a trigger is a solution needs addressing.
Be it racism, social isolation and division, political belief or some kind of Uber environmental belief that they can be Thanos with a gun

banie01

InTheShadows wrote: »

Black's kill more people per day with guns than any other sector of American society. But you know Trump something something

More thinly veiled anti-black racism?

It's not Trump something, something.
It's the simple and unavoidable fact that Trump's rhetoric is a driving force in the hardening of many peoples opinions on race and whether radical action is warranted or even tacitly supported by those in power.

banie01

InTheShadows wrote: »

This. If Sandy Hook didn't end the gun debate nothing will.

Believe me, I 100% agree with this point.
Nothing short of a miracle and guns magically evaporating is going to change the availability of guns stateside.

Harry Palmr

InTheShadows wrote: »

Black's kill more people per day with guns than any other sector of American society. But you know Trump something something

at least provide some statistic data to back that claim up.

p1akuw47h5r3it

banie01 wrote: »

More thinly veiled anti-black racism?

It's not Trump something, something.
It's the simple and unavoidable fact that Trump's rhetoric is a driving force in the hardening of many peoples opinions on race and whether radical action is warranted or even tacitly supported by those in power.

This was happening before Trump. The racial undertone of American politics has always existed, but imo was really seized upon primarily be leftwing media during Obamas presidency. In fact, it probably really got going towards the end of Obama's administration (Black lives matter, White lives matter, blue lives matter, All lives matter etc.) And just so we don't get our wires crossed, I thought Obama was quite a good President and don't believe he was responsible for really any of it.

Trumps just added petrol to the flames.

Venom

banie01 wrote: »

More thinly veiled anti-black racism?

It's not Trump something, something.
It's the simple and unavoidable fact that Trump's rhetoric is a driving force in the hardening of many peoples opinions on race and whether radical action is warranted or even tacitly supported by those in power.

If that were true then mass shootings in America would only have started in the last few years.

banie01

DanDan6592 wrote: »

This was happening before Trump. The racial undertone of American politics has always existed, but imo was really seized upon primarily be leftwing media during Obamas presidency. In fact, it probably really got going towards the end of Obama's administration (Black lives matter, White lives matter, blue lives matter, All lives matter etc.) And just so we don't get our wires crossed, I thought Obama was quite a good President and don't believe he was responsible for really any of it.

Trumps just added petrol to the flames.

I agree that it has always been present in American Politics and between the world of Twitter where ever single issue seems to rapidly descend into polarised opposites, rather than considered debate.
Many will harp on about the middle ground, I do think it's still where the vast majority of populations lie.
BUT, that's not who drives discourse or grabs soundbites, unfortunately it's the extreme on both ends of the spectrum that is shouting loudest.

That the President is quite openly racist and courts the right wing rather than being "Presidential" and by that I mean being a genuine consensus builder, does IMO add more than just petrol to the flames.

It's petrol with the added benefit of verbal napalm.

banie01

Venom wrote: »

If that were true then mass shootings in America would only have started in the last few years.

Care to explain the logic behind that?

limnam

Fox 8 news ohio is discussing Cats sleeping on mans face.....

p1akuw47h5r3it

banie01 wrote: »

I agree that it has always been present in American Politics and between the world of Twitter where ever single issue seems to rapidly descend into polarised opposites, rather than considered debate.
Many will harp on about the middle ground, I do think it's still where the vast majority of populations lie.
BUT, that's not who drives discourse or grabs soundbites, unfortunately it's the extreme on both ends of the spectrum that is shouting loudest.

That the President is quite openly racist and courts the right wing rather than being "Presidential" and by that I mean being a genuine consensus builder, does IMO add more than just petrol to the flames.

It's petrol with the added benefit of verbal napalm.

I agree completely, particularly with most people still being in the centre (and I'll be robbing that verbal napalm quote;) )

I said on a different thread that it's crazy how in ~10 years America went from two centrists (Obama and MCain) to Trump and Clinton (who ran more as a progressive). I just hope that the Dems pick a real moderate to run against Trump, and win.

Obama had a quote from the 2004 Dem National convention:

Well, I say to them tonight, there is not a liberal America and a conservative America — there is the United States of America. There is not a black America and a white America and Latino America and Asian America — there's the United States of America.

The pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats. But I've got news for them, too: We worship an awesome God in the Blue States, and we don't like federal agents poking around in our libraries in the Red States. We coach Little League in the Blue States, and, yes, we've got some gay friends in the Red States. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq.

This type of reasoning is needed in America now more then anytime since the 70's.

banie01

DanDan6592 wrote: »

I agree completely, particularly with most people still being in the centre (and I'll be robbing that verbal napalm quote;) )

I said on a different thread that it's crazy how in ~10 years America went from two centrists (Obama and MCain) to Trump and Clinton (who ran more as a progressive). I just hope that the Dems pick a real moderate to run against Trump, and win.

I agree.
I think that it's become too much about the US electorate identifying as left Vs right.
There is no space for nuance or actual politicking in the US at the moment as every single issue is very quick reduced to binary.

And feel free to use it, I'm just glad it made sense!

DanDan6592 wrote: »

This type of reasoning is needed in America now more then anytime since the 70's.

The purpose of a government, of any government is IMHO.
To provide the best benefit, representation, security and care to the widest portion of its population.
That doesn't mean left, right or centre IMO.
It means progressive and open discourse to drive broad consensus.

It may well mean right wing policing and defence policies with what the US would consider left wing policies of social supports and healthcare.

It's not a one size fits all system, it's fitting your solution to the problem.
Unfortunately a growing trend in politics means that logic is being reversed and every problem is being approached thru the optics of left v right and solutions are being thrown out because of perception.

InTheShadows

Harry Palmr wrote: »

at least provide some statistic data to back that claim up.

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-by-raceethnicity/

Plenty other freely available stats out there.

Blacks kill more per capita than any other ethnic grouping.

Sonny noggs

InTheShadows wrote: »

Black's kill more people per day with guns than any other sector of American society. But you know Trump something something

Yeah but calling out black on black violence is racist. And anyway, society is to blame.

InTheShadows

banie01 wrote: »

Believe me, I 100% agree with this point.
Nothing short of a miracle and guns magically evaporating is going to change the availability of guns stateside.

I know. I spent 15 years living in the US and you'd be amazed at what on the face of it looks like normal every day people holding a virtual arsenal of weapons.

banie01

InTheShadows wrote: »

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-by-raceethnicity/

Plenty other freely available stats out there.

That's a nice way to dance around random unprovoked incidents of mass shootings targeting race or sexuality.

How many incidents of mass shootings of the 251 incidents to date in the US this year were carried out by people of colour?

Yes black violence is higher, particularly in areas like Chicago.
However that is primarily gang driven and as such however perverse the motivation for the shooting, there is a motive other than "I'm angry and racist"

Of the total number of school shootings, how many have been carried out by people of colour?
Of the total of spree shootings, how many have been carried out by people of colour?

It's quite disingenuous to conflate the total US gun violence figure including gang, domestic violence and robbery with Spree shootings and then claim it's racist when the predominantly white ethnic background of spree shooters is raised.

banie01

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Yeah but calling out black on black violence is racist.

It really isn't IMO.

Sonny noggs wrote: »

and anyway, society is to blame.

For black on black?
For gun violence in general? Or spree shootings in particular?

Sonny noggs

banie01 wrote: »

It really isn't IMO.

Great.

quote="banie01;110878747"]For black on black?
For gun violence in general? Or spree shootings in particular?[/quote]

Black on black violence.

Silentcorner

When it comes to gun violence in the US, doesn't the breakdown of the traditional family unit have something to do with it...could it be fatherless homes that play a big part in all of that kind of violence?

dublinman1990

These mass shootings bring the official total now to 251 so far in 2019. That statistic should really leave you of being sick to the pit of your stomach.

BBC News just reported that the mass gunman in Ohio is now among the dead. The local police in Ohio had killed him within one minute of him holding gunfire.

greencap

there is no solution.
the cat is out of the bag as regards weapons, you may as well try picking up raindrops in a storm.

that theres a prevalence of white guys doing the mass shooting is not surprising due to demographics and probability.

the US will now just suffer the consequences of its decisions. the pro-guns won, and here is their prize.

riclad

Theres zero mass shootings in japan, to buy a gun you have to do a written test, and the police visit you once a year to check is it stored in a safe place.Theres very few people who own guns in japan apart from security gaurds or the police force .
Every walmart has a section where you can buy rifles and small guns .
Every large town has a branch of walmart or target .
The solution is strict gun control regulation and complete records of every person who owns a gun,
and anyone who buys ammo or bullets .
theres no reason for an ordinary person to need to own a machine gun .
deer hunters use rifles for hunting .

Overheal

InTheShadows wrote: »

Black's kill more people per day with guns than any other sector of American society. But you know Trump something something

This is a misconstrued claim based on incomplete data:

More blacks are KILLED with guns than any other demographic.

The majority of SHOOTERS are NEVER caught or identified.

There is no evidence to connect that the ethnicity of the victim directly correlates to the ethnicity of the shooter. QED: the Texas shooter wasn’t Hispanic.

lawlolawl

riclad wrote: »

Theres zero mass shootings in japan, to buy a gun you have to do a written test, and the police visit you once a year to check is it stored in a safe place.Theres very few people who own guns in japan apart from security gaurds or the police force .
Every walmart has a section where you can buy rifles and small guns .

Even the organised crime gangs have a hard time getting guns in Japan. There's **** all in the country that they can steal and they try to smuggle them in from China with patchy success.

It's the reason that Aum Shinrikyo built their own labs to make sarin gas rather than attempt to get their hands on a bunch of guns. They had billions of yen but it was just too hard to get the weapons into Japan.

Manic Moran

Someone woke up yesterday, saw the news about the shooting in El Paso, and said to himself something like "what a good idea. I'll go do the same thing".
Or else he thought "That bastard stole my idea. I'd better do it now to increase impact".
Or something like that.

From four years ago
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/yes-mass-killings-inspire-copycats-study-finds-n386141

Police have said so for years and now scientists have measured the effect: Mass shootings and school attacks do inspire copycats.

We have a serious sociological and psychological problem. That problem needs to be dealt with, no matter what happens to firearms in the country. Yet, if the problem is dealt with, then the firearms in the country are less of a public problem.

I would very much like politicians in the US to take a solid, direct effort at dealing with the root causes. No politician in the US is really talking about it in a serious way. Not an easy vote-getter, apparently.

1) The solution is strict gun control regulation and complete records of every person who owns a gun,
and anyone who buys ammo or bullets .
2) theres no reason for an ordinary person to need to own a machine gun .
3) deer hunters use rifles for hunting

1). To what end? I mean, what would you do with the information of who owns a gun? If someone goes on a spree shooting, identification is usually pretty easy anyway.
2) That's OK, most don't.
3) They do, indeed. https://www.guns.com/news/2017/11/17/why-hunters-are-trading-in-traditional-hunting-rifles-for-the-ar-15
https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/deer-hunt/deer-hunting-tips/rig-your-ar-rifle-for-optimal-deer-hunting

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

Just to add.
Regarding Dayton.
I do not yet know the Ethnicity or Motivations of that particular shooter...

It does not alter IMO the fact that the majority of mass shooter in the US are disaffected White men.
It is a conmanality that is quite pronounced and needs to be addressed IMO.

The driving factors behind the radicalism that drives anyone of any colour to believe pulling a trigger is a solution needs addressing.
Be it racism, social isolation and division, political belief or some kind of Uber environmental belief that they can be Thanos with a gun

Not much of a surprise that the assailant is a young, white male.

CNN are reporting the assailants name as Connor Betts.
https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/connor-betts/

biko

Manic Moran wrote: »

Someone woke up yesterday, saw the news about the shooting in El Paso, and said to himself something like "what a good idea. I'll go do the same thing".

Looking at timeline from MotherJones for shootings they look to cluster, not too sure about copycat motive though. Every shooting needs to be analysed for that.



and for some reason takes off big time in 2012.
I'm sure there is similar data for beyond 2014

As can been here the number of days between shooting are decreasing
http://assets.motherjones.com/politics/2014/10/activeShooter.png

dublinman1990

Channel 4 News & BBC News reported there that the gunman's 22 year old sister was also killed in the shooting in Ohio.

Timberrrrrrrr

Sister of gunman among nine dead in Ohio shooting

https://f7td5.app.goo.gl/8B3UY

Sent via @updayUK

The sister of the Ohio gunman and her boyfriend have been found shot dead in a car just hours after the 24-year-old opened fire in a crowded bar, killing nine and injuring 27 others in less than a minute

klaaaz

6 of the 9 victims were black. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49229054

Plumbthedepths

Thoughts and prayers.....

InTheShadows

banie01 wrote: »

That's a nice way to dance around random unprovoked incidents of mass shootings targeting race or sexuality.

How many incidents of mass shootings of the 251 incidents to date in the US this year were carried out by people of colour?

Yes black violence is higher, particularly in areas like Chicago.
However that is primarily gang driven and as such however perverse the motivation for the shooting, there is a motive other than "I'm angry and racist"

Of the total number of school shootings, how many have been carried out by people of colour?
Of the total of spree shootings, how many have been carried out by people of colour?

It's quite disingenuous to conflate the total US gun violence figure including gang, domestic violence and robbery with Spree shootings and then claim it's racist when the predominantly white ethnic background of spree shooters is raised.

The facts don't lie. You are the one doing the dancing.

banie01

InTheShadows wrote: »

The facts don't lie. You are the one doing the dancing.

You have yet to actually lay out any facts rekated to spree killings or demonstrate any actual understanding of the numbers you have posted?
Other than more Blacks die, what is your actual thesis?

How about answering the questions I asked regarding the proportion of spree shooters who are White versus those who are black?

This is a discussion about mass shootings and spree murders.
Please demonstrate how the link you posted, relates to killings and their perpetrators in those particular circumstances?

InTheShadows

Overheal wrote: »

This is a misconstrued claim based on incomplete data:

More blacks are KILLED with guns than any other demographic.

The majority of SHOOTERS are NEVER caught or identified.

There is no evidence to connect that the ethnicity of the victim directly correlates to the ethnicity of the shooter. QED: the Texas shooter wasn’t Hispanic.

Why are you shouting?

Blacks are the biggest killers of any ethnic grouping in the US. I've presented the facts when asked and i know from my time spent living in the US that this was true then and is still true now. Because it's gang violence it doesn't excuse it.

Anyway im out as iv'e shown the facts and figures and some just can't accept the truth when it's presented to them.

Overheal

InTheShadows wrote: »

Why are you shouting?

Blacks are the biggest killers of any ethnic grouping in the US. I've presented the facts when asked and i know from my time spent living in the US that this was true then and is still true now. Because it's gang violence it doesn't excuse it.

Anyway im out as iv'e shown the facts and figures and some just can't accept the truth when it's presented to them.

“I’ve the facts but I’m not showing them and leaving the discussion.”

Bye

Most of the victims were black, but the shooter wasn’t. Hmmm

Sweetemotion

Overheal wrote: »

This is a misconstrued claim based on incomplete data:

More blacks are KILLED with guns than any other demographic.

The majority of SHOOTERS are NEVER caught or identified.

There is no evidence to connect that the ethnicity of the victim directly correlates to the ethnicity of the shooter. QED: the Texas shooter wasn’t Hispanic.

That's Clutching at straws and you know it.

And saying the Texas shooter wasn't Hispanic isn't evidence of your claim either.

Woodsie1

More whites commit mass shooting because America has more whites living there than any other "person of colour".

Manic Moran

biko wrote: »

Looking at timeline from MotherJones for shootings they look to cluster, not too sure about copycat motive though. Every shooting needs to be analysed for that

Oh, there isn't much quarrel on the issue of copycats. From 4 years ago.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/yes-mass-killings-inspire-copycats-study-finds-n386141

Police have said so for years and now scientists have measured the effect: Mass shootings and school attacks do inspire copycats.

As many as 20 to 30 percent of attacks are set off by other attacks, according to researchers at Arizona State University and Northeastern Illinois University.

Or more recently
http://www.center4research.org/copy-cats-kill/

Shooters get enormous attention: their name, photo, motivations, and story are often shared for days following the event. The American Psychological Association points out that this “fame” is something that most mass shooters desire
...
Studies indicate that the more media attention a shooter gets, the more likely the event will inspire a future mass shooter
...
As long as the media continue to focus their news stories on the attacker, it is likely that the contagion will continue. The American Psychological Association recommends that mass media deny shooters the fame they desire by not sharing so many details about them and instead direct their attention to the victims and their stories.

Which brings us back to two points. First, that there is fundamentally something wrong with some people who need help. And second, there is a very easy way to knock some 30% off the number of shootings without any particular requirements for new regulation.