C350e - my thoughts

GTE

Hi all,

I've used the forum to figure out what hybrid variant to get and I ended up with a 161 C350e estate.

My thoughts so far are quite positive. The claimed mpg figure is a bit nuts but they all are.

I thought that I'd give some trip and fuel economy details for the benefit of anyone interested.

I don't have a charger at home yet; so I make use of ESB chargers a couple of times a week when I'm in the area.

I think the key repeatable fuel economy figure is a relatively long trip which shows how well the vehicle can do if you do have a home/work charger.

I have done 5 runs of Enfield in Meath to Kilbarrack and then to Dublin airport. That's around 63km, starting with 100% battery.

The worst mpg has been 57 and the best was 78. I wasn't hyper milling.

What I've noticed is that it could be a mistake to do EV mode until the battery runs out and then hybrid. It seems to perform better when running in Hybrid more, for me at least. I need to gather more data on that.

My regular commute starts up again in a few weeks and thats just 24km each way and by then, I'll have a home charger.

What's surprised me is that the car is averaging 44.5mpg with irregular charging and mainly city driving when my 131 A4 TDI averaged 42.1 with a 50/50 mix of city and motorway. That 44.5 figure is climbing every time I manage to get a full charge, so it's not settled yet.

I did a 6 mile trip yesterday from 9% battery, charged to 60% at the half way point and got home with 88mpg.

Apologies for not using L/100km, I'm slowly changing over!

Ill add to this with more info as I get it.

Any questions, let me know.

krissovo

I test drove the E350e so similar tech last year for a few days and found it all over the place, its not efficient but it can be, its not sporty but it can be. The problem was the torque was all over place depending what mode you were in. If you can adjust your driving I would expect some good results but The way I drive it would have had no value to me as I was getting just over 40 mpg for a mixed 90km commute.

Charging was a pain for so little gain, it was only useful when dropping my son to GAA practice and even then if I put my foot down even slightly to aggressive the engine would kick in.

I also tested a C class “mild” hybrid the 48v system and found that quite good. I got slightly higher mpg with that one and I didn’t spare the horses, around 44 I think on the same commute.

GTE

krissovo wrote: »

I test drove the E350e so similar tech last year for a few days and found it all over the place, its not efficient but it can be, its not sporty but it can be. The problem was the torque was all over place depending what mode you were in. If you can adjust your driving I would expect some good results but The way I drive it would have had no value to me as I was getting just over 40 mpg for a mixed 90km commute.

Charging was a pain for so little gain, it was only useful when dropping my son to GAA practice and even then if I put my foot down even slightly to aggressive the engine would kick in.

I also tested a C class “mild” hybrid the 48v system and found that quite good. I got slightly higher mpg with that one and I didn’t spare the horses, around 44 I think on the same commute.

Yeah I'd say that any more than my 64km one-way commute is where the economy falls away to a questionable area. I'm interested by the new c300de which should cater for the longer commute users but its nice to know my longest regular journey is a significant amount better on fuel than my old diesel, and that's not being shy of using the 275hp from time to time.

kanuseeme

I found it best to save some of the battery if, the journey is longer than battery range, if your going to use fuel, its better to use it when you can get the most from the fuel, e.g going up a hill, on a 120 kph motorway, then use the battery for stop start, urban/slow driving.

Most important is to charge at every opportunity, and use the battery as much as you can, no point arriving home with 20% charge left.

I am on 195 mpg at the moment in an Outlander

unkel

krissovo wrote:

if I put my foot down even slightly to aggressive the engine would kick in.

That's the problem with most PHEV. You can't really drive it in EV mode unless you pussyfoot it

@OP - get a tethered home charger ASAP with the connector right beside where your car's charge point is. Then just plug it in every night. If your setup is perfect this literally takes 5 seconds. I wouldn't bother with charging it at any ESB chargers. No point going through the whole process of getting your cable from your car, hooking it up and the reverse when you are leaving for a tiny saving

80sDiesel

bbk wrote: »

Hi all,

I don't have a charger at home yet; so I make use of ESB chargers a couple of times a week when I'm in the area.

.

Isn't it like just 3 hours to charge from a 3 pin home socket?

Soarer

@OP. So what sort of range are you getting in pure EV?

GTE

unkel wrote: »

That's the problem with most PHEV. You can't really drive it in EV mode unless you pussyfoot it

I've noticed it varies depending on charge percentage. When at 100% in Hybrid, I've a good amount of acceleration before the engine kicks in. At 30%, the engine is triggered sooner. In EV mode, the car is quite quick up to 80kph but this is why I'm beginning to trust Hybrid mode more. Those high 63km fuel efficency figures are coming from a 12 to 16km battery range.

kanuseeme

80sDiesel wrote: »

Isn't it like just 3 hours to charge from a 3 pin home socket?

I'm interested also in charging times from the 3 pin and a charging station.

I know what unkel said about hassle, but with the small batteries in phev's, you really need to charge as much as possible, I know its a small gain but its cumulative, while its only 30 cent of electricity it is worth considerable more in fuel savings,

As long as it takes to get the cable out and plug it in, considerable more time will be spent looking at the mpg figures and there is only one way to get them to rise.

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

@OP. So what sort of range are you getting in pure EV?

It has a 6.6kWh battery with about 5kWh usable so it’s EV only range is tiny... 15-20km I’d say, which is why it brings on the engine at every opportunity.

KCross

kanuseeme wrote: »

I'm interested also in charging times from the 3 pin and a charging station.

For the C350e it chargers at 1.5kW on 3 pin socket and about 5kWh usable so I’d say about 3.5hrs to charge.

From a charge point it will do 3.6kW so about 1.5hrs.

It looks like they are doubling the battery size and charge speed in the new model though.

kanuseeme

KCross wrote: »

For the C350e it chargers at 1.5kW on 3 pin socket and about 5kWh usable so I’d say about 3.5hrs to charge.

From a charge point it will do 3.6kW so about 1.5hrs.

It looks like they are doubling the battery size and charge speed in the new model though.

LOL they should allow it to rapid charge, Outlanders are getting a bad rap :D:D

AstraMonti

I know the range is very short, but can you explicitly set it to EV mode only until the battery runs out?

GTE

AstraMonti wrote: »

I know the range is very short, but can you explicitly set it to EV mode only until the battery runs out?

Yes you can, and it's not a poor performer in EV mode in the city either. In Hybrid mode, you're going to be on battery power unless you need very sharp acceleration at a roundabout or you want to get up to speed on a motorway on ramp. Once the battery gets to around 20%, it favours the engine a lot more but you can run it down to 5% in EV mode if you tell it.

At 120, the car is fine in EV mode but like I was saying earlier, the hybrid mode does a better job at deciding drive modes.

The lower MPG figure I got for the 63km commute was when I was selecting EV mode till the battery ran out. The 75ish mpg figure was when I let it sort itself out.

It generally recovers 30 to 40 percent battery charge while its on the motorway for my 60km example with the engine on (not on the dedicated Charge mode).

If the road levels off then you can notice the engine charging the battery as well as the wheels but with no noticeable affect on economy, unlike the dedicated Charge mode.

Regarding charging times; a lack of a fast charger is a pain but I've a 2.2kw 3 pin and its well under the 3hr mark, so much so I'm not too bothered getting a proper charging unit installed.

I'm looking forward to the regular work commutes starting up as I think its going to be a strong performer for my needs, but if I was doing that 60km commute everyday, I'd be sunk without a work charging point.

GTE

unkel wrote: »

That's the problem with most PHEV. You can't really drive it in EV mode unless you pussyfoot it

Not so much with this one to be fair, the overall range is the issue for regular local driving but its not asking anything of the engine unless you need a significant hurry up, then the engine is off again. I've done Drumcondra to Dun Laoghaire with a full charge in the middle and the engine never came on.

The diesel self charging hybrid Merc had is a different story. I could easily get an IS300h to match it in terms of fuel economy and that stayed on the battery a massive amount more than the Merc unit.

unkel

bbk wrote: »

Not so much with this one to be fair

The electric motor in your car has 82BHP. That's not a lot when pulling a 1,7 tonne vehicle

It does have an incredibly high torque of 340Nm. I guess when just accelerating gently to moderately on the flat (with the other traffic) you will be fine. But accelerate with a heavier foot or up any sort of hill, the petrol will kick in surely?

quenching

I’m interested in one of these instead of my Outlander PHEV but don’t have much idea how they fair regarding reliability. I’ve had several Toyota hybrids and know they’re almost indestructible but anyone have any idea how Mercedes fair?

I’ve also had 5 older Mercedes which were generally excellent apart from age related wear and tear.

GTE

unkel wrote: »

The electric motor in your car has 82BHP. That's not a lot when pulling a 1,7 tonne vehicle

It does have an incredibly high torque of 340Nm. I guess when just accelerating gently to moderately on the flat (with the other traffic) you will be fine. But accelerate with a heavier foot or up any sort of hill, the petrol will kick in surely?

It depends on what you're comparing; you've low power petrol and diesels estates lugging not so insignificant weights too. Not quite as much as something like a PHEV but when comparing the two, that's where my conclusion of having decent EV performance comes from (battery size aside).

In EV mode, the engine only kicks in when you click the kick down button on the accelerator. Before that, I'm keeping up with traffic with ease. I'd call that giving traffic a run for its money, only because I'm not expecting sports car performance from such a relatively low power setup.

The opening of this video gives an idea, before the driver goes into Sports mode.

https://youtu.be/aEYy0Faavgs

I'll have to take note of what gradients actually do cause the engine to kick in during a normal drive.

unkel

Agree that is keeping up with traffic with ease. Personally I accelerate a lot faster most of the time

It really is remarkable how much torque that motor has. It's more than pretty much every entry level full EV, although they all have more power.

zilog_jones

kanuseeme wrote: »

I found it best to save some of the battery if, the journey is longer than battery range, if your going to use fuel, its better to use it when you can get the most from the fuel, e.g going up a hill, on a 120 kph motorway, then use the battery for stop start, urban/slow driving.

Yes, in my experience with my Prius Plug-in (also Toyota's recommendation) on long journeys is to save the battery for slow speed sections, e.g. inner city driving or (when on N/R-roads) passing through towns/villages, etc. My general rule is to switch to EV mode when going 60 km/h or lower, but it depends on the journey really.

GTE

So, some data.

For my 24km commute (m50, m3), one way I'm getting around 110 to 130mpg (2.6l/100 to 2.2). Then on the way back with no charge that ends up at around 4.5l/100

I did a long run of 106km, starting from full battery with a charge half way and I finished up at 5.2/100.

Edit: 1.6 l/100 this morning (176mpg).

GTE

bbk wrote: »

So, some data.

For my 24km commute (m50, m3), one way I'm getting around 110 to 130mpg (2.6l/100 to 2.2). Then on the way back with no charge that ends up at around 4.5l/100

I did a long run of 106km, starting from full battery with a charge half way and I finished up at 5.2/100.

Edit: 1.6 l/100 this morning (176mpg).

It's settling down between 3 and 3.5 l/100km.

It will be interesting to see the winter results.

charlieIRL

They are fantastic mpg figures.

MorganIRL

Loving this info. Sourcing a X5 phev to replace our diesel version from UK. This info is cementing my idea of changing as majority of our driving is short runs

GTE

Hi all,

I have an update on my first fill of petrol with the electric charger installed.

The bad news is that it shows how important it is to have a charger on either side of your commute as for the past couple of weeks, I had some extra journeys on top of my commute which made the overall fuel economy for this tank less impressive.

The next tank fill will just be my regular commute, so it will be interesting to see what happens there.

Attached is an image of the data. I think my maths is correct. If so, that means I only saved a couple of euro over my 2013 Audi A4 diesel.

Noteworthy Items
Over 718km, the petrol engine C350 used just over 10 litres less fuel which is impressive for a petrol. So the electric gubbins is helping out here. With that said, petrol being pricer and the 8 or so euro electricity bill quickly slashes that difference down.

It is certainly a very strong fuel economy figure for the size and weight of the car. You just do not have all that much leeway on journeys you can not charge for.

By taking the "engine off" figure out of the equation, it shows the petrol engine is getting something like 10L/100km. That is not an exact science as this engine off figure includes coasting where the engine is switched off, a modern engine wouldn't use fuel either.

Still, this shows what it does when there are unexpected journeys and it is still a good result considering this car cost the same to buy for me as the equivalent diesel model, cost half to VRT and would cost me the same in car loan repayments.

KCross

Where does your kW figure come from? I'm assuming you mean kWh not kW?... big difference!



fyi... I'd imagine you already know but you should also consider switching to day/night meter which will half the electricity cost... assuming you are charging every night at home?

zilog_jones

17c per kWh?! You need to find a better deal and get a night rate meter ASAP
I'm paying 7.16c per kWh at night.

unkel

You only have 5kWh usable battery, which isn't really suitable for your commute. Unless you plug in both at home and at work every day. Many PHEV have about 10kWh usable, which would do your commute to work and back home all on the same charge. That is where you would save serious money (and obviously charging it at the less than half price night rate, which is far better for the environment too)

The newer PHEVs from the likes of Mercedes-Benz and BMW have even more range with batteries of about 15kWh

But staying with your car - if your 718km consisted of 2 weeks commuting (480km) charging up at home and at work and the rest (238km) on petrol (ignoring that you can also plug in at the weekend of course) than it would only cost you 238/14 * 1.40 = €24 in petrol and 10 * 5kWh * 0.08 night rate (only pay for home charging, not work charging) €4 in electricity, so €28 in total, and not the €63 you paid or the €66 your diesel used to cost

You only save money with PHEV if you plug it in a lot!

GTE

KCross wrote: »

Where does your kW figure come from? I'm assuming you mean kWh not kW?... big difference!



fyi... I'd imagine you already know but you should also consider switching to day/night meter which will half the electricity cost... assuming you are charging every night at home?

There is a meter built-in to the charger.

I've Electric Ireland on the case about night rates too. Its a nightly charge alright

GTE

unkel wrote: »

You only have 5kWh usable battery, which isn't really suitable for your commute. Unless you plug in both at home and at work every day. Many PHEV have about 10kWh usable, which would do your commute to work and back home all on the same charge. That is where you would save serious money (and obviously charging it at the less than half price night rate, which is far better for the environment too)

The newer PHEVs from the likes of Mercedes-Benz and BMW have even more range with batteries of about 15kWh

But staying with your car - if your 718km consisted of 2 weeks commuting (480km) charging up at home and at work and the rest (238km) on petrol (ignoring that you can also plug in at the weekend of course) than it would only cost you 238/14 * 1.40 = €24 in petrol and 10 * 5kWh * 0.08 night rate (only pay for home charging, not work charging) €4 in electricity, so €28 in total, and not the €63 you paid or the €66 your diesel used to cost

You only save money with PHEV if you plug it in a lot!

Yes, the 2nd generation of the Merc PHEV is where it is at. My 3/100km figure was very consistent until I went galavanting.

I've also got the workplace on the EV charging hunt. Things are coming up Milhouse in stages down my way

unkel

bbk wrote: »

I've Electric Ireland on the case about night rates too. Its a nightly charge alright

If you plug in every night of the year at home and use the 5kWh up, then your saving will be 365 * 5 * (18c-8c) or over €180 on the night rate compared to the day rate. Better than a kick in the eye

KCross

MorganIRL wrote: »

Loving this info. Sourcing a X5 phev to replace our diesel version from UK. This info is cementing my idea of changing as majority of our driving is short runs

Are you buying it new?

The stats for that car look decent. 21kWh usable battery that gives ~70km in EV mode... thats what a Gen 1 Leaf has!

~70km EV range with 400hp (0-62mph in 5.6 seconds!!) still on tap will suit alot of people.

https://www.electrive.com/2019/08/30/bmw-launches-phev-of-the-x5-with-an-87-km-range/

MorganIRL

KCross wrote: »

Are you buying it new?

The stats for that car look decent. 21kWh usable battery that gives ~70km in EV mode... thats what a Gen 1 Leaf has!

~70km EV range with 400hp (0-62mph in 5.6 seconds!!) still on tap will suit alot of people.

https://www.electrive.com/2019/08/30/bmw-launches-phev-of-the-x5-with-an-87-km-range/

Jaysus no, I wish. 2016/2017 probably. Really big varience between prices here and UK.. even factoring ferry & flights,vrt etc..

unkel

KCross wrote: »

The stats for that car look decent. 21kWh usable battery that gives ~70km in EV mode...

30kWh/100km? Ouch, that's very inefficient. Is that a WLTP figure?

KCross

MorganIRL wrote: »

Jaysus no, I wish. 2016/2017 probably. Really big varience between prices here and UK.. even factoring ferry & flights,vrt etc..

ok, are you sure its a PHEV? I didnt know/think they had an X5 PHEV in 2016?

unkel wrote: »

30kWh/100km? Ouch, that's very inefficient. Is that a WLTP figure?

Yes, WLTP.
Sure the X5 is a brick so its hardly going to be efficient. Someone spending €80k isnt going to care a jot about an extra 10kWh/100km particularly when its a PHEV (e.g. iPace is 20-25kWh/100km).

MorganIRL

KCross wrote: »

ok, are you sure its a PHEV? I didnt know/think they had an X5 PHEV in 2016?




Yes, WLTP.
Sure the X5 is a brick so its hardly going to be efficient. Someone spending €80k isnt going to care a jot about an extra 10kWh/100km particularly when its a PHEV (e.g. iPace is 20-25kWh/100km).

Ya, see attached
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201909172305760?advertising-location=at_cars&year-from=2016&price-to=35000&postcode=gu33nh&body-type=SUV&seller-type=trade&sort=price-asc&price-from=20000&fuel-type=Hybrid%20%E2%80%93%20Petrol%2FElectric%20Plug-in&transmission=Automatic&model=X5&page=1&make=BMW&year-to=2017&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used

unkel

X5 40e PHEV came out in 2015

KCross

MorganIRL wrote: »

Ya, see attached

It only has 9kWh of battery(probably less usable) which is quite small relative to the new model which has 21kWh usable.

I think you'd need some real world owner feedback on that PHEV as to how good/bad it is before you buy. It wont do much on EV but it should be more economical than a pure diesel, but not significantly more.

MorganIRL

KCross wrote: »

It only has 9kWh of battery(probably less usable) which is quite small relative to the new model which has 21kWh usable.

I think you'd need some real world owner feedback on that PHEV as to how good/bad it is before you buy. It wont do much on EV but it should be more economical than a pure diesel, but not significantly more.

We live in Mayo, so dipping our toes into ev. Don't do big km with main car, school runs etc. Hit limerick every 2months and France once a yr that's our longest runs. Nothing much in between. All going well in a few yrs when we can change again the Tesla X will be within range. :-)