Dutch "Burqa ban" comes into force from today

Anto Lynch

https://www.dw.com/en/dutch-burqa-ban-comes-into-force/a-49838909

jam_mac_jam

While I am uncomfortable with the government telling people what they can and cannot wear I understand it from a security point of view.

I very rarely see women in Ireland with the full burka anyway, I wonder how necessary it is. However it is an oppressive garment and shouldn't be really something to be encouraged.

I suppose I don't agree with banning what you can and cannot wear whatever the reason.

c.p.w.g.w

Full facial covering should not be permitted for numerous reasons. Head scarfs as long as they don't obscure the face are fine.

wellwhynot

I see quite a lot of burka’s in Dublin. If you go to any of the big shopping centres mid-week you will see plenty. I don’t like the gov telling women what they can and cannot wear. By the same token I don’t like religious men telling women what they can or cannot wear so I am conflicted

Anto Lynch

wellwhynot wrote: »

I see quite a lot of burka’s in Dublin. If you go to any of the big shopping centres mid-week you will see plenty. I don’t like the gov telling women what they can and cannot wear. By the same token I don’t like religious men telling women what they can or cannot wear so I am conflicted

I hear you, but its not just about burqas. Look at the US we have gangs of what have been described as "domestic terrorists" masked going around beating people up.

And we had one or two incidents like that here also.

It shouldnt be allowed.

jam_mac_jam

wellwhynot wrote: »

I see quite a lot of burka’s in Dublin. If you go to any of the big shopping centres mid-week you will see plenty. I don’t like the gov telling women what they can and cannot wear. By the same token I don’t like religious men telling women what they can or cannot wear so I am conflicted

You really don't. Its quite rare to see one and I live in an area which would have one of the highest percentages of foreign people in the country.

jam_mac_jam

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

You really don't. Its quite rare to see one and I live in an area which would have one of the highest percentages of foreign people in the country.

You see the odd one around the South Circular Road in Dublin. I think the Dutch/French bans are good on the whole. They are both extremely tolerant places but there comes a time when lines need to be drawn in the sand and European countries need to define and stand up for their own values.

As a general rule, tolerance alone does not work when dealing with intolerant people (note: I am NOT saying burqa wearers are intolerant). I am just saying endless appeasement, tolerance, capitulation etc. does not end up in a happy clappy utopia.

Danzy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You see the odd one around the South Circular Road in Dublin. I think the Dutch/French bans are good on the whole. They are both extremely tolerant places but there comes a time when lines need to be drawn in the sand and European countries need to define and stand up for their own values.

As a general rule, tolerance alone does not work when dealing with intolerant people (note: I am NOT saying burqa wearers are intolerant). I am just saying endless appeasement, tolerance, capitulation etc. does not end up in a happy clappy utopia.

European tolerance will be the death of itself.

When you wear a Burqa it shows your views, same as a swastika tattoo would.

Anto Lynch

I dont buy the whole the goverment shouldnt be allowed tell us what or what not to wear argument. they already do in a way. We are required to wear clothing in public or we'll be arrested. Same thing.

jam_mac_jam

Deleted User wrote: »

You see the odd one around the South Circular Road in Dublin. I think the Dutch/French bans are good on the whole. They are both extremely tolerant places but there comes a time when lines need to be drawn in the sand and European countries need to define and stand up for their own values.

As a general rule, tolerance alone does not work when dealing with intolerant people (note: I am NOT saying burqa wearers are intolerant). I am just saying endless appeasement, tolerance, capitulation etc. does not end up in a happy clappy utopia.

I agree, there does need to be a line and maybe this is the line. We cannot be tolerant of things that are completely against our way of life. This is a garment that is offensive in itself.


However I just can't get past its the government telling people what they can and cannot wear and I am just not in agreement with that aspect of it.

jam_mac_jam

Danzy wrote: »

European tolerance will be the death of itself.

When you wear a Burqa it shows your views, same as a swastika tattoo would.

Should a swastika be illegal?

Tasfasdf

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I agree, there does need to be a line and maybe this is the line. We cannot be tolerant of things that are completely against our way of life. This is a garment that is offensive in itself.


However I just can't get past its the government telling people what they can and cannot wear and I am just not in agreement with that aspect of it.

Covering you face in public is not normal nor should it be normalised.

cgcsb

I'm conflicted about the whole dictating what one should wear. Also the dutch ban is far reaching, if it was Halloween and you were wearing a costume going to a party would the cops tell you to take it off?

But I understand why the burqa should be banned, perhaps if only the burqa was banned and not other types of 'covering'.

hetuzozaho

Anto Lynch wrote: »

https://www.dw.com/en/dutch-burqa-ban-comes-into-force/a-49838909
What are peoples thoughts on this? Personally i dont have a problem with it, i think in this day an age nobody should be allowed walk the streets with their face covered whether that be with a balaclava or a burka.

For security reasons with the current threat from Islamic, left & right wing terrorists. This is a step in the right direction. People have no reason to be concealing their identity.

Would you support such a ban in Ireland and if not why not?

I live in an area where the burka is very common, it's never bothered me to be honest. After a rough night on the beer I've often been jealous and wished I could wear one to work I was always for John Lennon's Bagism!

I'm in Dublin and have never felt a threat from Islamic, left or right wing terrorists, are people actually feeling this threat around towns and cities in Ireland?

_Kaiser_

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I agree, there does need to be a line and maybe this is the line. We cannot be tolerant of things that are completely against our way of life. This is a garment that is offensive in itself.


However I just can't get past its the government telling people what they can and cannot wear and I am just not in agreement with that aspect of it.

The Government tells us lots of things we can and can't do from a behavioural perspective. This isn't one I'd disagree with myself.

It's nonsense that our societies are bending over backwards to accommodate people, cultural norms, and beliefs that are completely at odds with our way of life.

If you come here (ESPECIALLY if you do so on the generosity of this country) you adapt and integrate with our laws and our culture - not the other way around.

Time to start standing up to not just this attitude, but those who think our society should come second, for nothing more than social media virtue signalling :rolleyes:

Fair play to the Dutch. Of course, similar laws will not happen here. We have a leader obsessed with his social media profile and we as a country have a ridiculous "need" to be approved of and validated by others.

Anto Lynch

hetuzozaho wrote: »

I live in an area where the burka is very common, it's never bothered me to be honest. After a rough night on the beer I've often been jealous and wished I could wear one to work I was always for John Lennon's Bagism!

I'm in Dublin and have never felt a threat from Islamic, left or right wing terrorists, are people actually feeling this threat around towns and cities in Ireland?

Well we had a bunch of terrorists up training in the Dublin mountains prior to the syrian war kicking off. And we have the 2nd highest number per capita of dirtbags travelling to join isis. The concern is warranted imo.

Eric Cartman

Thoroughly welcome this, its a massive security risk in addition to an opressive statement against women. Glad the dutch can see sense

wellwhynot

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

wellwhynot wrote: »

I see quite a lot of burka’s in Dublin. If you go to any of the big shopping centres mid-week you will see plenty. I don’t like the gov telling women what they can and cannot wear. By the same token I don’t like religious men telling women what they can or cannot wear so I am conflicted

You really don't. Its quite rare to see one and I live in an area which would have one of the highest percentages of foreign people in the country.

I really do. How often are you in Dundrum shopping centre in the morning during the week?

jam_mac_jam

wellwhynot wrote: »

I really do. How often are you in Dundrum shopping centre in the morning during the week?

Never. Maybe there is more of them in Dundrum.

Anto Lynch

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Never. Maybe there is more of them in Dundrum.

Blanch aswell. Drive up the Blanchardstown road Friday lunch time youll see dozens of women in burqas.

jam_mac_jam

Anto Lynch wrote: »

Blanch aswell. Drive up the Blanchardstown road Friday lunch time youll see dozens of women in burqas.

No, not really. I am in Blanch quite often and have never seen dozens of women in burqas. Maybe they are coming from a mosque?

Henry Ford III

I think foreigners should respect the standards wherever they are in the world.

In much the same way as "normal" western clothing would cause upset in Muslim countries, Burka

alastair

Anto Lynch wrote: »

Blanch aswell. Drive up the Blanchardstown road Friday lunch time youll see dozens of women in burqas.

No you don’t. Hijabs possibly.

Anto Lynch

alastair wrote: »

No you don’t. Hijabs possibly.

I know the difference between the two.

Anto Lynch

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

No, not really. I am in Blanch quite often and have never seen dozens of women in burqas. Maybe they are coming from a mosque?

Yes they are, the mosque on the blanchardstown road. In Blanch....

shanec1928

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

You really don't. Its quite rare to see one and I live in an area which would have one of the highest percentages of foreign people in the country.

plenty in lucan

alastair

Anto Lynch wrote: »

I know the difference between the two.

Then you’re simply bull****ting.

Richard Hillman

Very common in Dundrum during the week. I went into a bank a few days ago and somebody strolled in with a full on burqa. That's something that definitely shouldn't be allowed.

Anto Lynch

alastair wrote: »

Then you’re simply bull****ting.

No i think you are the one thats bull****ting. Ive drive up and down that road about 20 odd times a week.

Danzy

Danzy wrote: »

European tolerance will be the death of itself.

When you wear a Burqa it shows your views, same as a swastika tattoo would.

What views?
It shows your religion for sure. And I hardly think it's comparable to the swastika!

mad muffin

alastair wrote: »

Then you’re simply bull****ting.

Oh I was wondering when you’d come along to stir the pot… moth to a flame. Moth to a flame.

alastair

Anto Lynch wrote: »

No i think you are the one thats bull****ting. Ive drive up and down that road about 20 odd times a week.

Odds are you’re seeing the one woman repeatedly then. There are very few burka-wearing Muslims in Ireland.

SexBobomb

Serious question, why are they black and kind of uncomfortable looking? Just because in the middle East where its hot wouldn't it attract the heat and be roasting under it ? How come theres none in white silk or other colours ?

Anto Lynch

SexBobomb wrote: »

Serious question, why are they black and kind of uncomfortable looking? Just because in the middle East where its hot wouldn't it attract the heat and be roasting under it ? How come theres none in white silk or other colours ?

Its torture. They aint supposed to be comfy.

jam_mac_jam

SexBobomb wrote: »

Serious question, why are they black and kind of uncomfortable looking? Just because in the middle East where its hot wouldn't it attract the heat and be roasting under it ? How come theres none in white silk or other colours ?

Its for rich women who don't work or need to be outside the home. There is a bit of status symbol there as well. Its way more popular in the gulf where they can sit around on their arses.

hetuzozaho

Anto Lynch wrote: »

Well we had a bunch of terrorists up training in the Dublin mountains prior to the syrian war kicking off. And we have the 2nd highest number per capita of dirtbags travelling to join isis. The concern is warranted imo.

Oh right. I didn't realise people were feeling threatened by these things.
And do people feel threatened then when they see a woman in a Burka?

Lackey

SexBobomb wrote: »

Serious question, why are they black and kind of uncomfortable looking? Just because in the middle East where its hot wouldn't it attract the heat and be roasting under it ? How come theres none in white silk or other colours ?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/39570

Here you go
The general gist is ‘not to attract attention ‘

Anto Lynch

hetuzozaho wrote: »

Oh right. I didn't realise people were feeling threatened by these things.
And do people feel threatened then when they see a woman in a Burka?

Me personally no but thats not point. There are no good reasons to be walking around with your face covered. I dont care if its for religious reasons. We are doing a good job of leaving religious nonsense behind in this country.

I would like to see that continue.

Btw you dont think isis fighters presence in this country is worrying?

mad muffin

Honestly I don’t have an issue with it. I e never been offended or scared when I’ve seen women wear them. I guess in the west it’s seen as a sign of oppression. But I don’t know personally if they don’t want to wear it.

I can see why they are banned for security reasons. Just like motor bike helmets are banned from being worn inside banks.

p1akuw47h5r3it

hetuzozaho wrote: »

Oh right. I didn't realise people were feeling threatened by these things.
And do people feel threatened then when they see a woman in a Burka?

In fairness there is a different between having a concern and feeling threatened. I'm slightly concerned about Islam and Islamic terrorism, however I don't feel threatened by either necessarily.

The odds of me being killed in a terrorist attack, by any group, is tiny. And any Muslim I've ever interacted with have been fine, nice people. I still feel the ideology when practised and implemented on a large scale can be dangerous to my values however (similar most religions really).

hetuzozaho

Anto Lynch wrote: »

Me personally no but thats not point. There are no good reasons to be walking around with your face covered. I dont care if its for religious reasons. We are doing a good job of leaving religious nonsense behind in this country.

I would like to see that continue.

I would agree.

Anto Lynch wrote: »

Btw you dont think isis fighters presence in this country is worrying?

I don't but look it's probably more my naieveity/approach to life - not saying someone is wrong to feel how they do about it you know.

hetuzozaho

mad muffin wrote: »

Honestly I don’t have an issue with it. I e never been offended or scared when I’ve seen women wear them. I guess in the west it’s seen as a sign of oppression. But I don’t know personally if they don’t want to wear it.

I can see why they are banned for security reasons. Just like motor bike helmets are banned from being worn inside banks.

Yeah I'd be the same as you - never bothered me. I would think that seems a bit unfair/opressive especially at beaches/pools were they still cover up - but like you say its hard to get in someone's head, if they are happy wearing it I think I'm fine with it.

And the bank thing makes sense! It's a tricky one for me anyway!!

Danzy

mad muffin wrote: »

Honestly I don’t have an issue with it. I e never been offended or scared when I’ve seen women wear them. I guess in the west it’s seen as a sign of oppression. But I don’t know personally if they don’t want to wear it.

I can see why they are banned for security reasons. Just like motor bike helmets are banned from being worn inside banks.

It is seen as oppressive in the Middle East as well.

Bigbagofcans

mad muffin wrote: »

I guess in the west it’s seen as a sign of oppression. But I don’t know personally if they don’t want to wear it.

There are many who are forced to wear burqas so that their husbands have full control over them.

Having said that, there are some who choose to wear them. They aren't being judged on their appearances and are free from unwelcome male advances and objectifying leers.

alastair

Anto Lynch wrote: »

Well we had a bunch of terrorists up training in the Dublin mountains prior to the syrian war kicking off. And we have the 2nd highest number per capita of dirtbags travelling to join isis. The concern is warranted imo.

No we didn’t, and no we don’t.

There’s no evidence whatsoever of training camps or whatever in the Wicklow mountains. Radicals who went to join ISIS were out hillwalking for fitness and privacy of conversation, being concerned about surveillance. Neither Gardaí or those who participated claimed any training took place.

And Ireland ranked 37th per capita internationally for the 30 or so people who went to join ISIS. 6.5 people per million, compared to the 545.5 people per million from Tunisia for instance. It’s simply the small Muslim population here that made those 30 a high percentage (0.072%) of the Muslim population.

NKante

I support a ban in all government and privately run places. i.e I think a restaurant should be able to refuse service to a full Burka woman and a bank should be able to refuse too.

I absolutely support it in our schools. We had a case of a Burka teacher taking the school to court. It's unbelievable to me that the left would push for Burka-clad teachers. Imagine growing up as a kid having no clue what your teacher looks like. Just a pair of eyes staring back at you.

I would also have nothing to do with them personally. Seeing facial features and expressions is part of how humans interact. If you want to shut yourself off from society in such a manner, don't expect me to interact with you.

I've go no problem with the Hijab and other garb. Just the face covering.

yerwanthere123

It's not going to be enforced anyway, so it's a moot law.

biko

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I very rarely see women in Ireland with the full burka anyway, I wonder how necessary it is.

It is as necessary as anywhere else. Bringing bans in "after the fact" is what caused this mess in the first place.

Bringing the ban in before it's too late means several things:
We Irish say "women's rights outweigh religious doctrine"
Liberated Muslims will fell more at ease because the culture they escaped from hasn't followed them here.
Radical Muslims won't move here. This means less radicalisation of 2nd generation Muslims already here.

Anto Lynch

alastair wrote: »

No we didn’t, and no we don’t.

There’s no evidence whatsoever of training camps or whatever in the Wicklow mountains. Radicals who went to join ISIS were out hillwalking for fitness and privacy of conversation, being concerned about surveillance. Neither Gardaí or those who participated claimed any training took place.

And Ireland ranked 37th per capita internationally for the 30 or so people who went to join ISIS. 6.5 people per million, compared to the 545.5 people per million from Tunisia for instance. It’s simply the small Muslim population here that made those 30 a high percentage (0.072%) of the Muslim population.

I got the info on isis from this article a couple of years ago. I obvioulsy read it wrong.

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-capita-study-jihadists-syria-islam-1655655-Sep2014/

Right no training was taking place just some general fitness work and planning taking place in the Dublin/Wicklow mountains. It may not have been a training camp as such, but it doesnt look good.

hetuzozaho

Anto Lynch wrote: »

I got the info on isis from this article a couple of years ago. I obvioulsy read it wrong.

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-capita-study-jihadists-syria-islam-1655655-Sep2014/

Right no training was taking place just some general fitness work and planning taking place in the Dublin/Wicklow mountains. It may not have been a training camp as such, but it doesnt look good.

I'm not one to tell someone how to live their life - but going by this update - maybe you don't need to worry too much about it man!

(this is coming from a big worrier of the small things ha)

Anto Lynch

hetuzozaho wrote: »

I'm not one to tell someone how to live their life - but going by this update - maybe you don't need to worry too much about it man!

(this is coming from a big worrier of the small things ha)

Its not something i think or worry about on a daily basis i can assure you of that.