New entrant / dairy start up

trixi2011

Currently looking at leasing or entering a dairy farming partnership in ireland. What should I be looking out for and who should I be talking to? Hearing of 300 to 400 an acre market rates for turn key dairy farms surely this isn't the norm .

GrasstoMilk

trixi2011 wrote: »

Currently looking at leasing or entering a dairy farming partnership in ireland. What should I be looking out for and who should I be talking to? Hearing of 300 to 400 an acre market rates for turn key dairy farms surely this isn't the norm .

Have you left muldowneys?

trixi2011

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Have you left muldowneys?

Nope but looking to move closer to home in the next year or 2

GrasstoMilk

trixi2011 wrote: »

Nope but looking to move closer to home in the next year or 2

Natural progression so.
Yeah well any around here that have gone up are making close to 300 and over and they're going to tillage farmers.
If a farmer takes a liking to you you're game ball.
If you put it out there you were in the market I'm sure you'll come across some good farms in the market

visatorro

trixi2011 wrote: »

Currently looking at leasing or entering a dairy farming partnership in ireland. What should I be looking out for and who should I be talking to? Hearing of 300 to 400 an acre market rates for turn key dairy farms surely this isn't the norm .

Would managing a large unit appeal to you? Sure you could negotiate good profit sharing on top of your wages. Or other benefits. I know there is people renting farms and setting up themselves but Is a limited space still hard to get right opportunities. Plenty of big places looking for top notch labour though.

jaymla627

trixi2011 wrote: »

Currently looking at leasing or entering a dairy farming partnership in ireland. What should I be looking out for and who should I be talking to? Hearing of 300 to 400 an acre market rates for turn key dairy farms surely this isn't the norm .

I’d be waiting for milk to crash i.e sub 25 cent, if you had a bundle of cash gathered up it would be very easy to deal with potential landowners re rates etc, you’d be on a hiding to noting trying to take on anything at the present time especially with the whole entitlement/bps issue not sorted yet lads are terrified of losing out

Gawddawggonnit

trixi2011 wrote: »

Currently looking at leasing or entering a dairy farming partnership in ireland. What should I be looking out for and who should I be talking to? Hearing of 300 to 400 an acre market rates for turn key dairy farms surely this isn't the norm .

Ireland is priced out of existence.

You’d buy and own a substantial dairy farm in France for less than the rent in Ireland. Better milk prices too.
The place is full of frogs though...!

wrangler

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Ireland is priced out of existence.

You’d buy and own a substantial dairy farm in France for less than the rent in Ireland. Better milk prices too.
The place is full of frogs though...!

Is the climate not more suitable here, I looked up the lease register for a farm local to here, fully set up for circa 200 cows, price is abut €280/ac, for an enterprise that's grossing €2 - 2500/cow it doesn't sound a lot of money. I assume that the owner gets the subs as well but that'll probably change a lot in the next CAP reform, the tenant will surely get it then

Gawddawggonnit

wrangler wrote: »

Is the climate not more suitable here, I looked up the lease register for a farm local to here, fully set up for circa 200 cows, price is abut €280/ac, for an enterprise that's grossing €2 - 2500/cow it doesn't sound a lot of money. I assume that the owner gets the subs as well but that'll probably change a lot in the next CAP reform, the tenant will surely get it then

280ha, 220 cubicles, 50bail rotary, 90ha irrigable, chicken house for laying hens (fully computer automated) with an ebidta of €76k (5yr average) for €600k without machinery and stock...

105ha, 120 cubicles, needs a new parlor, €135k...
I could go on and on and on...

I’d buy the 280ha farm but I wouldn’t be allowed. The chicken house alone would more than pay for that farm. It’ll have to be a young farmer to buy it though.

_Brian

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Ireland is priced out of existence.

You’d buy and own a substantial dairy farm in France for less than the rent in Ireland. Better milk prices too.
The place is full of frogs though...!

Not all frogs though

trixi2011

visatorro wrote: »

Would managing a large unit appeal to you? Sure you could negotiate good profit sharing on top of your wages. Or other benefits. I know there is people renting farms and setting up themselves but Is a limited space still hard to get right opportunities. Plenty of big places looking for top notch labour though.

Most likely would but location would probably have to come into it Abit as looking to locate closer to family . Also have a herd of cows which I wouldnt want to sell

jaymla627

wrangler wrote: »

Is the climate not more suitable here, I looked up the lease register for a farm local to here, fully set up for circa 200 cows, price is abut €280/ac, for an enterprise that's grossing €2 - 2500/cow it doesn't sound a lot of money. I assume that the owner gets the subs as well but that'll probably change a lot in the next CAP reform, the tenant will surely get it then

Average gross output per cow in 2018 nationwide Would be circa 380kgs ms x €4.20 so 1600 euro gross income where are you pulling 2000-2500 grand a cow out of...

carrollsno1

Is France not all year round milking and high input though? Thats not for everyone either. Im hitting Tasmania myself shortly, it supposed to be similar to New Zealand before the dairy boom started there i was chatting to an Irish couple currently there a few weeks back and they said what opportunities are there will never be seen back home for a long time. Its definitly not all sunshine either as its fairly isolated and not a lot of young people around as thet usually get married by 20 and settle down then. Im absolutely dreading it simply because its a hell of a lot quieter than New Zealand and definitly a lot quieter than Sydney and also because if i do like it ill probably stay on to get PR if not longer, the only thing that will keep me sane is the fact i know from the farm gate i can be in the fifth province in St Kilda in 3hrs all going well.

MF290

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

280ha, 220 cubicles, 50bail rotary, 90ha irrigable, chicken house for laying hens (fully computer automated) with an ebidta of €76k (5yr average) for €600k without machinery and stock...

105ha, 120 cubicles, needs a new parlor, €135k...
I could go on and on and on...

I’d buy the 280ha farm but I wouldn’t be allowed. The chicken house alone would more than pay for that farm. It’ll have to be a young farmer to buy it though.

Are they advertised online?
How many bird unit?
Is finance easily got?

visatorro

trixi2011 wrote: »

visatorro wrote: »

Would managing a large unit appeal to you? Sure you could negotiate good profit sharing on top of your wages. Or other benefits. I know there is people renting farms and setting up themselves but Is a limited space still hard to get right opportunities. Plenty of big places looking for top notch labour though.

Most likely would but location would probably have to come into it Abit as looking to locate closer to family . Also have a herd of cows which I wouldnt want to sell

I don't know your stage of life/family situation but could you sell cows and leave it in pension fund tax free because you work abroad or am I bending the tax rules. Just a thought.
Just thinking of different angles.
Could you get a posh job with an advisor place or something different. Employers love people with foreign experience?

wrangler

jaymla627 wrote: »

Average gross output per cow in 2018 nationwide Would be circa 380kgs ms x €4.20 so 1600 euro gross income where are you pulling 2000-2500 grand a cow out of...

I know there's a lot of blowing on here but in old money guys on here would boast about 35c/ltr plus for milk and yields are surely at 1600 gls now.
or else.!!!!!!!!!
There could be a lot of BS on here too
The farm I was referring to would be nearer to €2500 than €2000/cow

trixi2011

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

280ha, 220 cubicles, 50bail rotary, 90ha irrigable, chicken house for laying hens (fully computer automated) with an ebidta of €76k (5yr average) for €600k without machinery and stock...

105ha, 120 cubicles, needs a new parlor, €135k...
I could go on and on and on...

I’d buy the 280ha farm but I wouldn’t be allowed. The chicken house alone would more than pay for that farm. It’ll have to be a young farmer to buy it though.

Sounds interesting alright not sure if I would have the interest or the expertise to go back to hi input dairy farming . Anywere in France capable of operating block calving grass based system do you reckon

Gawddawggonnit

MF290 wrote: »

Are they advertised online?
How many bird unit?
Is finance easily got?

Never advertised because they reckon that if you’ve to advertise then you’ve no buyers...
Around 10k birds, I think.
Easily financed at 100%, inc machinery and dairy stock. The hens would repay the 100% finance of everything in 15yrs because you’d have a guaranteed contract for the 15yrs...without ever making a bob out of the dairy/tillage side.

Would you be able to farm up on 700 acres? You’d need staff, know how etc?

Gawddawggonnit

trixi2011 wrote: »

Anywere in France capable of operating block calving grass based system do you reckon

Lol Trixi!!
First time I heard of someone trying to make a sows ear out of a silk purse...!

alps

jaymla627 wrote: »

Average gross output per cow in 2018 nationwide Would be circa 380kgs ms x €4.20 so 1600 euro gross income where are you pulling 2000-2500 grand a cow out of...

Wrangler always says beef farmers pay too much for the calf....that's the bit you're missing

wrangler

alps wrote: »

Wrangler always says beef farmers pay too much for the calf....that's the bit you're missing

https://cdn.agriland.ie/uploads/2019/01/pearse-4-768x588.png

At 3.40 /kg the dairy beef calf is worth €150 less

wrangler

jaymla627 wrote: »

Average gross output per cow in 2018 nationwide Would be circa 380kgs ms x €4.20 so 1600 euro gross income where are you pulling 2000-2500 grand a cow out of...

here's a profit monitor putting the ms at 480kgs and gross income at €3400 in the top 25%.
That's the problem with averages.
If everyone was average we'd all be walking around on less than two legs :
As I said that farm would be at the top and the new tenant will bewell able to push it to the limit, even though she's only in her early twenties

https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/publications/2018/eProfit-Book-2017.pdf

_blaaz

carrollsno1 wrote: »

Is France not all year round milking and high input though? Thats not for everyone either. Im hitting Tasmania myself shortly, it supposed to be similar to New Zealand before the dairy boom started there i was chatting to an Irish couple currently there a few weeks back and they said what opportunities are there will never be seen back home for a long time. Its definitly not all sunshine either as its fairly isolated and not a lot of young people around as thet usually get married by 20 and settle down then. Im absolutely dreading it simply because its a hell of a lot quieter than New Zealand and definitly a lot quieter than Sydney and also because if i do like it ill probably stay on to get PR if not longer, the only thing that will keep me sane is the fact i know from the farm gate i can be in the fifth province in St Kilda in 3hrs all going well.

I was told one time that franz jorspf glacier is directly opposite side of world to south france


The weather in nz is forever closer to france,
than ireland....except id imagine the EU would crap.a brick at taughts of widescale irrigation programs

MF290

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Never advertised because they reckon that if you’ve to advertise then you’ve no buyers...
Around 10k birds, I think.
Easily financed at 100%, inc machinery and dairy stock. The hens would repay the 100% finance of everything in 15yrs because you’d have a guaranteed contract for the 15yrs...without ever making a bob out of the dairy/tillage side.

Would you be able to farm up on 700 acres? You’d need staff, know how etc?

Who do you get in contact with to find places?

Managing staff without the language and not settling into the country would be the biggest issues. I’m thinking 5+ years down the line when I’m nearing my late twenties

3 people would surely manage that size of an operation.
I’d imagine the poultry is much like Ireland where you don’t need a massive amount of knowledge
just keep a close eye on things?
Auld lad could handle the tillage side and that would leave me with the cows.
The guts of that money would only get me set up to go milking on owned land on a greenfield site without a poultry unit.
France and Eastern Europe are the only places where land seems reasonably priced, more scope for an increase in land value in Eastern Europe would be a consideration.
Why no to block calving? How are you supposed tailor a high grain diet accurately to cows at every stage of lactation?
Sorry trixi, derailing a thread about Irish dairy

GrasstoMilk

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Lol Trixi!!
First time I heard of someone trying to make a sows ear out of a silk purse...!

If it's such a money train why are owners selling? Why hasnt someone else bought it?
Also re milk price - is quoted milk price in france not what they pay you for what your amount of quota was before quotas were abolished in 2015? Litres over your historic quota are priced different?

alps

wrangler wrote: »

here's a profit monitor putting the ms at 480kgs and gross income at €3400 in the top 25%.
That's the problem with averages.
If everyone was average we'd all be walking around on less than two legs :
As I said that farm would be at the top and the new tenant will bewell able to push it to the limit, even though she's only in her early twenties

https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/publications/2018/eProfit-Book-2017.pdf

Ahh Wrangler....the example you give has gross output per cow at 2342€, even though you've picked a year where coop price was 6c/l ahead of this year, which will knock that output to under 2k...

The publication of these figures by teagasc for general public consumption , is appalling however..

Great to see success like you describe though...

wrangler

alps wrote: »

Ahh Wrangler....the example you give has gross output per cow at 2342€, even though you've picked a year where coop price was 6c/l ahead of this year, which will knock that output to under 2k...

The publication of these figures by teagasc for general public consumption , is appalling however..

Great to see success like you describe though...

Actually didn't google that until you questioned me, before that it was the old grey matter clicking while reading some posts on here.
The clearance sale of that farm had yeilds that'd be above that, anyway even at €2000 the rent is small at 280/ac.
Just saying that there's not always two dairy farmers on a piece of land to push each other

carrollsno1

_blaaz wrote: »

I was told one time that franz jorspf glacier is directly opposite side of world to south france


The weather in nz is forever closer to france,
than ireland....except id imagine the EU would crap.a brick at taughts of widescale irrigation programs

I reckon the summers would be similar to france maybe? New Zealand and Adelaide were the two worst spots for sunburn ive been to.

carrollsno1

wrangler wrote: »

Actually didn't google that until you questioned me, before that it was the old grey matter clicking while reading some posts on here.
The clearance sale of that farm had yeilds that'd be above that, anyway even at €2000 the rent is small at 280/ac.
Just saying that there's not always two dairy farmers on a piece of land to push each other

Yield is vanity, profit is sanity.

Gawddawggonnit

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

If it's such a money train why are owners selling? Why hasnt someone else bought it?
Also re milk price - is quoted milk price in france not what they pay you for what your amount of quota was before quotas were abolished in 2015? Litres over your historic quota are priced different?

Money train? It’s a farm not a hedge fund.
It’s being sold because both sons are gone to work in the city.

In short.
Hens are 24/7/365 with 35hrs work. One labor unit...except laborers won’t work weekends.
Dairy is 24/7/365 and around 230cows so another two labor units. Weekends?
Tillage is around 650ac with over 200ac of irrigation. Another 1.5 labor units.

Minimum of four full time staff that are willing to commit their careers to the farm are needed from day one.
Throw in farm regulations, labor regulations, mountains of paperwork etc etc.

My milk price is always posted in the milk price thread. Our Coop is losing supplies yearly due to lack of successors and investment. If there was a Tams available it would definitely help keep dairy farmers producing but it wouldn’t stop the youth from going elsewhere.
The worst processor would be Lactalis and they’re paying 35cpl + vat currently. I’ve no idea how they operate post quota. All I know is that my crowd are begging for milk to fill contracts, and they wouldn’t be bottom of the league or top of the league either.

Gawddawggonnit

MF290 wrote: »

Who do you get in contact with to find places?

Managing staff without the language and not settling into the country would be the biggest issues. I’m thinking 5+ years down the line when I’m nearing my late twenties

3 people would surely manage that size of an operation.
I’d imagine the poultry is much like Ireland where you don’t need a massive amount of knowledge
just keep a close eye on things?
Auld lad could handle the tillage side and that would leave me with the cows.
The guts of that money would only get me set up to go milking on owned land on a greenfield site without a poultry unit.
France and Eastern Europe are the only places where land seems reasonably priced, more scope for an increase in land value in Eastern Europe would be a consideration.
Why no to block calving? How are you supposed tailor a high grain diet accurately to cows at every stage of lactation?
Sorry trixi, derailing a thread about Irish dairy

PM sent.

_blaaz

carrollsno1 wrote: »

I reckon the summers would be similar to france maybe? New Zealand and Adelaide were the two worst spots for sunburn ive been to.

Thats because theres a hole in ozone layer over nz and parts of oz

(Hence why climate change/green politics are popular there)

Dakota Dan

_blaaz wrote: »

Thats because theres a hole in ozone layer over nz and parts of oz

(Hence why climate change/green politics are popular there)

The ozone hole is closing, how did all the cfc’s manage to migrate to NZ to make one big hole rather than multiple smaller holes spread around the globe?

Castlekeeper

More that they migrated to the Poles and for whatever reason, the hole over the South Pole became larger. (Antarctica not Anascaul)

Castlekeeper

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

MF290 wrote: »

Who do you get in contact with to find places?

Managing staff without the language and not settling into the country would be the biggest issues. I’m thinking 5+ years down the line when I’m nearing my late twenties

3 people would surely manage that size of an operation.
I’d imagine the poultry is much like Ireland where you don’t need a massive amount of knowledge
just keep a close eye on things?
Auld lad could handle the tillage side and that would leave me with the cows.
The guts of that money would only get me set up to go milking on owned land on a greenfield site without a poultry unit.
France and Eastern Europe are the only places where land seems reasonably priced, more scope for an increase in land value in Eastern Europe would be a consideration.
Why no to block calving? How are you supposed tailor a high grain diet accurately to cows at every stage of lactation?
Sorry trixi, derailing a thread about Irish dairy

PM sent.

Would the extreme heat of recent summers be a serious concern for French agriculture? Would some models become unviable if it continues?

Timmaay

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Would the extreme heat of recent summers be a serious concern for French agriculture? Would some models become unviable if it continues?

I don't think we'd be much safer here, we are on a knife edge in terms of the gulf stream and our lovely mild wet climate that isn't too dry, hot or cold.

Castlekeeper

Timmaay wrote: »

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Would the extreme heat of recent summers be a serious concern for French agriculture? Would some models become unviable if it continues?

I don't think we'd be much safer here, we are on a knife edge in terms of the gulf stream and our lovely mild wet climate that isn't too dry, hot or cold.

The difference is the reality of the recent record high temperatures as against dramatic speculation.

Gawddawggonnit

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Would the extreme heat of recent summers be a serious concern for French agriculture? Would some models become unviable if it continues?

We get extreme heat every single summer but you don’t hear about it. The fact that it was twice (so far) this summer was a bit abnormal...but when it hits Paris it becomes worldwide news.
Sure it doesn’t rain in Ireland until there’s a bit of flooding in Dublin...!

Mooooo

Residential farm in Meath all set up for dairying, parlour housing the lot, 80 acres guided at 850k I think. Say to land 90 cow's in there you'd be looking at 11c/L repayments over 20 years

Gawddawggonnit

Mooooo wrote: »

Residential farm in Meath all set up for dairying, parlour housing the lot, 80 acres guided at 850k I think. Say to land 90 cow's in there you'd be looking at 11c/L repayments over 20 years

Not out of the way price wise there Mooo.

Thing about it is that if you hadn’t inherited a decent lump of land you’d be to the pin of your collar to buy that. You’d get 10 times the land for the same price here and I don’t give a damn what anyone says, it’s hard to beat acres...the more the better! (Or maybe its just an Irish thing?)

_blaaz

Dakota Dan wrote: »

The ozone hole is closing, how did all the cfc’s manage to migrate to NZ to make one big hole rather than multiple smaller holes spread around the globe?

Instead of going on attack try do some.research


Ozone lacking air over nz

[/http://archive.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/environment/environmental-reporting-series/environmental-indicators/Home/Atmosphere-and-climate/ozone-hole.aspx]

The ozone hole does not have a large effect on the concentration of ozone over New Zealand. However, when the ozone hole breaks up in spring, it can send ‘plumes’ of ozone-depleted air over New Zealand. Reporting on the state of the ozone hole helps us understand the state of ozone concentrations globally.

Mooooo

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Not out of the way price wise there Mooo.

Thing about it is that if you hadn’t inherited a decent lump of land you’d be to the pin of your collar to buy that. You’d get 10 times the land for the same price here and I don’t give a damn what anyone says, it’s hard to beat acres...the more the better! (Or maybe its just an Irish thing?)

Yeah, that was the reason I posted it. Better value than what I bought here and tbh if it wasn't for the fact this was adding to the milking platform of the home place I wouldn't be able to pay for it, it's the output of the combination is paying for the add on.
With regard to acreage I'd agree but here it's the dry acres that make the difference. Lost my boot at home near the gap turning the cow's in for milking one autumn, drove in to the ground we bought with the car, renting it at the time, to bring back a calf which was born that day, that made the mind up to go for it really

Gawddawggonnit

Mooooo wrote: »

Yeah, that was the reason I posted it. Better value than what I bought here and tbh if it wasn't for the fact this was adding to the milking platform of the home place I wouldn't be able to pay for it, it's the output of the combination is paying for the add on.
With regard to acreage I'd agree but here it's the dry acres that make the difference. Lost my boot at home near the gap turning the cow's in for milking one autumn, drove in to the ground we bought with the car, renting it at the time, to bring back a calf which was born that day, that made the mind up to go for it really

Fair dues for taking the plunge and buying land Mooo. There’s no substitute for acres, good acres.
I’d starve on bad land. The boss used always say that if land isn’t capable of consistently growing good sugar beet, it was only ‘space outside’.

trixi2011

turn key 80/100 cow farm in the west /Midlands . Parlour needs work and reseeding and lime needed what would people think viable rental figure.

wrangler

trixi2011 wrote: »

turn key 80/100 cow farm in the west /Midlands . Parlour needs work and reseeding and lime needed what would people think viable rental figure.

240 - 300, mid midlands

Look up the lease register, that example €280/acreI was discussing last week wouldn't be far from where you are

https://propertypriceregister.ie/Website/NPSRA/pprweb-com.nsf/page/ppr-home-en

C0N0R

trixi2011 wrote: »

turn key 80/100 cow farm in the west /Midlands . Parlour needs work and reseeding and lime needed what would people think viable rental figure.

I know where there’s a similar farm within your price range! Did you get my reply to your pm?

Mooooo

trixi2011 wrote: »

turn key 80/100 cow farm in the west /Midlands . Parlour needs work and reseeding and lime needed what would people think viable rental figure.

Wouldn't know what ground up there would make. Are there many dairying around it? What's the ground like? What would be the output of the cows/ heifers you have? Reseeding etc and work on the parlour you'd be talking a minimum 15 yr lease, I guess put together a budget and see what margin you can make on the various rents. 15 yr lease would give a higher tax free amount to owner as well. Have many lads linked it to milk price, in terms of increasing / decreasing a certain percent against the price going above or below certain points?
Is it close enough to home to have replacements off the block or would you buy in as you go along?

trixi2011

Mooooo wrote: »

Wouldn't know what ground up there would make. Are there many dairying around it? What's the ground like? What would be the output of the cows/ heifers you have? Reseeding etc and work on the parlour you'd be talking a minimum 15 yr lease, I guess put together a budget and see what margin you can make on the various rents. 15 yr lease would give a higher tax free amount to owner as well. Have many lads linked it to milk price, in terms of increasing / decreasing a certain percent against the price going above or below certain points?
Is it close enough to home to have replacements off the block or would you buy in as you go along?

I'm not sure of the area myself as bit away from were is local to me . Talking to farmer that knows farm says it's a dry early farm . Heifers would be from herd doing over 500kg Ms and be predominantly xbreed. Have done a few budgets and they look pretty good if I can get the output out of the herd budgeting 420 from a full heifer herd. Not from farming background myself so no homefarm for replacements so would have to rent again or contract rear

trixi2011

C0N0R wrote: »

I know where there’s a similar farm within your price range! Did you get my reply to your pm?

I got it alright , give me a shout when some time you have 10 mins

Mooooo

trixi2011 wrote: »

I'm not sure of the area myself as bit away from were is local to me . Talking to farmer that knows farm says it's a dry early farm . Heifers would be from herd doing over 500kg Ms and be predominantly xbreed. Have done a few budgets and they look pretty good if I can get the output out of the herd budgeting 420 from a full heifer herd. Not from farming background myself so no homefarm for replacements so would have to rent again or contract rear

If you could source replacements for the first year or two it may make things easier, I know easier said than done. Woukd allow you to focus on the cows totally. Would prob have to have accommodation for incalf heifers coming in for winter as a lot of the more desirable stock seem to be sold before the winter.

kevthegaff

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Fair dues for taking the plunge and buying land Mooo. There’s no substitute for acres, good acres.
I’d starve on bad land. The boss used always say that if land isn’t capable of consistently growing good sugar beet, it was only ‘space outside’.

I must be a great farmer then!